CaliSoxFanViaSWside

To be fair it wasn't just the Sox. Most around here said the same thing about the pen. You got a preview of it in the playoff game Dunning started.

There's more than one way to throw the White Flag.

It always looks that way when you can't hit, hit into 3 DP's, and hit a truck load of ground balls.

I'm wondering if you and Crede are wearing matching socks.

How about the pigeons ? Are they nice too ?

Unfortunately there is no way to use Vaughn's small sample size of less than a year where he has no errors and not nearly enough chances to prove his true worth as a LF and extrapolated it to use against others career stats who also have limited exposure to LF on a year to year basis. If for instance in the coming years as a part timer in LF (assuming he plays 1st base the majority of his career) you might get small sample sizes like you did with Leury and Goodwin in LF that range in the negative just like with those guys . You might get a -50 one year, a -10, a 0, or a +25. You use SSS sizes on a year to year basis for all those guys in LF to make a definitive statement that Vaughn is the 2nd best LF remaining on the roster. If he kicks one groundball or has 1 pop up hit him in the head like Robert did , in a part time role it hits his stats like a body tied to a big rock thrown into the ocean

Vaughn is 23 does that help ? And once again I never said to turn him into a weak side platoon player .Saying this for the 3rd time has not helped your edification at all !

Easy to agree with for any player even Mercedes.

I didn't think you would give me what I asked for and you didn't disappoint me. You will never put yourself on the line. I didn't build a house of sand. You did. I never said current stats are static. That is Capt. Obvious info. Any number of players whether 1st round draft choices or veterans usually put up better or worse stats from the 1st half to the 2nd half. Vaughn may very well have the best chance to improve his stats against RHP going forward but that is also a house of sand . You did put yourself on the line a tiny bit by saying there is zero chance that Vaughn continues to have a 38 wRC+ against RHP the rest of the season . So I will hold you to that. Whether a 50, 60 or 75 wRC+ against RHP is good enough to play in the playoffs vs RHP is another matter entirely.

Every time I see people use stats to support Vaughn they use his total numbers. Why is it so hard to use his stats against RHP ? His stats are boosted by his great ability to hit LHP . Any arguments I make are strictly regarding his stats against RHP. I fully acknowledge his awesomeness against LHP. I also fully support Vaughn getting perhaps 75+ % of the AB's vs. RHP we will face while Eloy, Robert, Engel, Hamilton and Eaton are out. How often he plays against RHP after those guys return is totally based upon how he fares vs RHP until then. But I do agree that the lineup is bad against both RHP and against LHP and that Abreu's slump, the lose of Mercedes early exploits and losing Madrigal has hurt the line up tremendously. We can only hope Lamb, Leury and Goodwin continue to provide as much as they have so far.

Please explain to me this imaginary standard. Are current stats imaginary ? Are having reasonable expectations that LH veteran hitters such as Leury , Lamb and Goodwin will continue to outshine Vaughn ,a RH hitter, against RHP ? How is everything made up? I only used stats. You made up what my argument was. Is it an imaginary standard that the Sox are under .500 on the road and saying that Vaughns splits against RHP are miserable overall and if there is a level beyond miserable he has been that on the road ? Is it imaginary that I said if Vaughn can improve against RHP because he will get playing time against them that I would be thrilled ? The only thing that you said that is reality it's that there isn't a debate to be had here because ,as usual, you continue to debate things I said only in your imagination. I said one arbitrary thing which is Vaughn has a 50/50 chance of improving enough vs. RHP enough to make a difference this year in the playoffs . That isn't unreasonable is it ? What do you think the odds are of that happening? Tell me the type of line that he will put up in the 2nd half that would make him the best choice to be played in the playoffs vs RHP. Give me something ,a minimal OBP, SLG , OPS independent of his 1st half stats that we can shoot for .

Once again who are you arguing with ? I never said he should play as a weak side platoon . I said " It's not like the Sox are going to bench Vaughn for all AB's against RHP." As for your last paragraph. I also said "I don't expect them (the stats) to improve or get worse which is the same thing I think about Vaughn." If all 4 are still on the team come October and Andrew Vaughn has torn up the league in the 2nd half I would be thrilled to play him in the playoffs. He'll get plenty of chances to keep playing and improve. " You are literally , once again ,telling me things and arguing points I didn't make. It's right there in black and white and I repeated it here for your edification.

I'll also make this simple. Andrew Vaughn has been so bad against RHP he would have to substantially improve just to reach Leury's level of bad. Also Andrew Vaughn is having the worst month of his season thus far. Expecting him to improve to a level that helps the Sox through the rest of the season and through the playoff is a tall order in which there is probably less than a 50/50 chance of that kind of improvement given what he has done so far. I also don't not care anything about why Goodwin or Leury or Lamb are here. All I do is look at the stats. I don't expect them to improve or get worse which is the same thing I think about Vaughn. I can only go by what's in front of me now. If all 4 are still on the team come October and Andrew Vaughn has torn up the league in the 2nd half I would be thrilled to play him in the playoffs. It's not like the Sox are going to bench Vaughn for all AB's against RHP. He'll get plenty of chances to keep playing and improve.

Wouldn't playing guys with better stats than him also give the Sox a better chance to win the World Series not just possibly but literally? I was just told " I also don't think playing any of those guys over Vaughn puts the Sox in a better position to win now." Let's say I am a Mercedes fanboy but he is in a tremendous slump and I don't want him playing any more because I know he is hurting the team so lets look at his stats against RHP even after this horrendous slump and compare them to Vaughn vs RHP. Vaughn : .230 OBP .238 Slg. and .468 OPS Mercedes : .302 OBP .359 slg .661 OPS Now lets look at Away ( road) splits vs RHP Vaughn : .182 OBP .167 Slg. .348 OPS This is about as bad as it gets Mercedes : .279 OBP .333 Slg .612 OPS This is also pretty bad but considerably better than Vaughn even after the Grand Canyonesque slump. Vaughn's Away splits make his overall splits vs. RHP look like All Star numbers . They are that bad. The Sox record right now on the road is 17-18 and that was accomplished with Mercedes contributing way more to their road and overall record than Vaughn against RHP Yet I keep being told that " There are no better options than Vaughn in LF right now." so once again vs. RHP Vaughn : .230 OBP, .238 Slg., .468 OPS (.348 on the road) Lamb .333 OBP, .444 slg., 778 OPS (.800 on the road) Leury : .319 OBP, .336 Slg, .665 OPS, (.638 on the road) Goodwin: .462 OBP, .714 Slg., 1.176 OPS (1.300 on the road) It would seem to me there are 3 better options no matter what anyone wants to say about them the stats don't lie. Every one of those guys is substantially better than Vaughn in all 4 categories listed OBP, SLG, OPS and Road OPS .You can quibble with Goodwin's SSS or about who the better fielder is and lets face it Vaughn isn't out there to win games with his fielding or baserunning so hitting is pretty much all you have to look at even though it's apparent Leury and Goodwin will contribute more to base running. Also right now Leury or Goodwin will be playing CF and it's possible Lamb could DH against RHP more. So far he has only played 3 games as the DH. So yes now with the thin choices, I can still say there are better options since I doubt all 3 better options will be in the lineup all the time vs. RHP. If all 3 do play every day against RHP lets say in CF RF and DH then Vaughn would have to play In LF. He's going to Play LF anyway even in games where TLR still decides to use Mercedes, Collins or Grandal at DH. With the Sox starting pitching there is a thin line between winning and losing now without Mercedes contributing what he once did Abreu slumping and Vaughns cold bat all season against RHP. Even incremental upgrades will help win games. Playing guys who hit better than Vaughn vs RHP will make a difference in winning games especially on the road. All 3 have an OPS .200 better than Vaughn and even higher on the road.

Yes I know there are plenty of Vaughn fanboys that no matter how he hits against RHP would still insist he play LF. Quite the impassioned plea for a guy with .230 OBP .238 Slg. and .468 OPS against RHP. How low would it have to go to say a guy with a .600 or .700 or.750 OPS who fields the position just as well if not better got more playing time in LF over him ?Just curious . How bad do you want him to play? All starts against LHP and all starts against RHP ? Never take him out of the lineup ? Never replace him defensively ? Never replace him for a pinch runner ? Oh well at least now I know some guys would rather lessen the Sox chances to win a World Series than to temporarily stall or give a break to a top prospects development. You act as if he won't be here next year.

Exactly And plenty of people here had reservations in the off season adding Brantley because of his age catching up to him in the OF .Vaughn is 23.

Hard to think it isn't coming very soon.

Oh good 98 that tells me something about him. Basically I'm looking at his walks good to see he didnt give up any . 1 run in 1.1 innings . At least the ball was in the zone. Probably not where he wanted it in the zone but baby steps are good.

Yes there is always legitimate discussion to be had. That's hard on a message board because most people stick to 2 sentence posts. Things like sabremetric fielding stats are quite tricky and you need advanced knowledge to use them. I will freely admit that is not my forte. But I will do the research necessary. I think OAA is quite simple. It divides the number of balls caught in the OF into 5 categories from 1 star catch through 5 star catches. 1 star is a catch everyone should make. 5 star catches are those catches only the best OF's make. 2 stars through 5 stars are catches where you have to run more than a few steps. It's range which is jump, route, burst (full speed where you cover the most ground). It shows your strength and weakness when going back ,coming in moving left or moving right) and against RHB and LHB. It basically shows that Vaughn has only had 15 opportunities to make 2-5 Star catches .So in other words we don't yet have enough data to get a full picture on how he fields when moving over greater distances. OAA shows he makes all the catches on 1 and 2 star catches and 80% on 3 Star and 0 % on 4 and 5 star catches . This show he has been competent, decent on catches that some guys will botch. It also shows he is highly unlikely to save you any runs in the 4 and 5 Star category where greater distances need to be covered. This isn't a huge deal in G Rate because it is not one of the more expansive OF's . It's more of a problem on the road in bigger outfields. But again still not enough data to get an accurate picture. I could even say that Vaughn may be just as good as Goodwin in LF even though Goodwin has him by leaps and bounds in speed . All data on Goodwin is also SSS based on year to year stats because he has primarily been used the least in LF and most in CF and RF and all in backup roles. Neither one of us can prove his point based on that . The whole debate started when Southside Hit Men used data to say Vaughn was the 2nd best OF left on the roster . I found that hard to believe so it piqued my interest and made me ask how the heck did he come to that conclusion ? I'm still not convinced he is using them correctly because it would take hours just to figure out everything that goes into Total Zone and I'm not sure he could explain it because maybe only the guy who developed it can explain it thoroughly. It's just curiosity not an obsession with Vaughn per se. He's a polarizing figure much like Madrigal.

Because as Rabbit said Peralta is basically Lamb only Lamb has more power. Why pay for Peralta when the Sox also need relief pitching. It's wasteful.

Yes excuse me I said Baseball Prospectus and believe it or not I looked at that Total Zone stat you used on Baseball Reference and saw the stat you used and spent quite a bit of time looking at it. Basically I saw you used one column of a whole range of the Total Zone stats, 21 different defensive stats columns.17 of those columns had either a negative, 0 or no data at all for Vaughn. This indicates he has not yet compiled the necessary stats to properly grade him or you ignored the others and just used the highest number you could find in the positive which was that 12 under the column Rtot/yr. Rtot/yr defined is: Total Zone The number of runs above or below average the fielder was worth per 1200 innings. This number combines the Rtz, Rdp, Rof, Rcatch into a total defensive contribution , In 3 of those 4 categories there were 2 with no data at all and 1 was a 0. Vaughn has 411 innings of total in his career yet the stat clearly states it needs 1200 inning to truly calculate these things yet it gave him a 12 anyway which you used. When I look under that same column and look at Vaughn's 2 game sample in RF I see 103. When I look up Dwight Evans Career in RF who is usually considered a great RF I see 77. Would you then think Vaughn is a better RF then Dwight Evans ? This is the danger in using small sample sizes against a larger sample size.

blah blah blah windbag. It's a baseball discussion based on defensive stats which are a highly debatable thing to discuss. You stepping in with nonsense is typical .You are acting like a petulant school child who was scolded because I admonished you on using lies and distortions when arguing about Vaughn's abilities vs. RHP. If I am obsessed with Vaughn what does that make you? The guy who lied and told everyone that I said send him down to the minors when I did not, then didn't bother to take it out of your post after you admitted I was right. The only thing you have left is to personally attack me. Apparently you are obsessed with spreading falsehoods and lies and jokes at my expense like a child among his schoolmates.

My post did say OAA is a range based stat that takes into account sprint speed,jump and read and also route . They use video evidence that shows the players route, distance covered, and the amount of time it took them to cover that distance. So you are greatly short changing it. I suppose I could look into your claims but I don't see how anyone can fault OAA . It's video proof based on plenty of things measured by the microsecond. I don't even know what fielding accuracy is. If you are trying to claim Vaughn is a better LF than Leury Garcia by a wide margin that is preposterous and also applies to Brian Goodwin. Vaughn will never ever have the speed or range or the JUMP. He's as close to the bottom in jump as you can get with a 10 rating which is based on 100 being the best. to be in positive territory in OAA . Speed is the number one factor in what makes an OF above average Sure it's not the end all be all if you can get a good jump and take good routes but Vaughn so far is terrible at getting jumps. So even if his routes are accurate he just can't cover enough ground to get to balls other players with more speed get to. This is rudimentary stuff. If he is so much better than them why can't he play CF like them ? Oh yeah he's slower than shit. Oh yeah he doesn't have the range based on speed and jump to play CF. Come on now. You put Goodwin or Leury in LF and they get to more catchable bloopers , balls down the line and in the gaps faster which will mean more outs and less bases taken by runners. Vaughn is only propped up by that Total Zone stuff that only Baseball Prospectus uses because he hasn't made any errors and G- Rate does not have an expansive OF. According to OAA Vaughn is basically equal to Michael Brantley in the OF this year . Brantley covers a little bit more ground and runs better routes and has a better burst to the ball while Vaughn is better at reaction time.

Peralta has 4 HR's in 272 PA Lamb has 5 HR's in 95 PA's . So I would suspect he'd be among the team leaders on the Sox had he got the same amount of AB's. Of course that's impossible given he wasn't brought here to be a starting OF but he's only played 3 games at DH and I would expect that to increase more against RHP and frankly that it hasn't already is a mystery . Not exactly a mystery since LaRussa has played Mercedes far too much during his slump which has reached epic proportions.

Peralta doesn't move the needle nearly enough. Sox need power and he doesn't have any power and he has another year left on his contract. Sox at this point are in equal need of another productive player who can hit both LHP and RHP . Ideally that would be Starling Marte who is a free agent next year or Eduardo Escobar. Marte might be cost prohibitive. Escobar probably easier to obtain since his salary is less but also provides power from both sides of the plate. I already mentioned Schwarber above, another free agent net year but with an option who the Nats might not feel like trading with that mutual option.