CaliSoxFanViaSWside

Well it is flawed when a DH playing less than 50 games at 1st base is included in the top 1st basemen . That's why I said the Shredder needs a tuneup. Certain things need to count more like actually playing at least 100 games at the position. I don't know how the Shredder was program but my concerns about walks and their relationship to other stats make me think that walks are counted over and over in the sabermetric stats considered most important. Now I'm no sabermertrics expert by far. But I'm trying to understand them and I constantly have questions like with walks. OBP obviously counts walks, and OBP + Slg =OPS, right ? Then OPS+ is OPS with ballparks figured in, right ? Plus both wRC and wRC+ include walks also in the offensive stats don't they ? So a weak hitter ( batting avg. ,not a lot of power but who gets a lot of walks )is given a big boost in a lot of sabermetric stats. While a good hitter gets punished if he doesn't get that many walks. I'm just wondering for arguments sake how would a batter be if he got 600 PA's never got a hit but got 250 walks or 100 walks plus 125 singles and played gold glove type defense what might his WAR be , and other stats I mentioned . I'm thinking there has to be way to count how you hit with runners in scoring position along with some other stats that give batting average and RBI's more importance . You could include RBI opportunities some how like some kind of clutch factor. A hit with men on base should always count as better than a walk.

I think playing with Kubalik has opened up the ice a bit for him . I think Toews lost a lot of energy trying to play in front of the net while trying to still be the same good defensive player. Too much time and energy skating end to end and battles in front of the net making his shifts less effective. Toews can now trust Kunalik on rushes or when Toews pulls up Kubalik will drive the net or give Toews a good angle to pass. This in turn saves him some energy and be more effective both offensively and defensively.

Neither are the Sox , not for Arenado anyway.

Yea I mentioned Flores in the 1st of my 2 posts above, Mine would be : 1, Holt 2. Gennett but only after extensive medical exams since I think his upside is the highest of everyone still available 3. Flores 4, Dozier 5. Yolmer 6. Kipnis

Shredder needs an over haul or a tune up. Happy to see Encarnacion make it but come on now. He's a DH. I understand the reluctance to count traditional stats like RBI's but they really can't fit the AL RBI leader on this list ? It's one thing to say RBI's are based on opportunities but on a bad team do we really think Abreu had so many more opportunities for RBI's or is it more a product that he hit damn good in those opportunities. It's starting to look like walks mean more than RBI's. I love walks as much as the next guy but I'd rather have a guy drive in runs than leave it up to the next guy. Too many stats now are walk /OBP driven and since the Shredder is most likely a Brian Kenny Sabermetric type unbiased calculation I doubt RBI's get the love that walks driven stats do. The name of the game is still getting more runs across the plate than your opponent. Wouldn't be surprised if the batting champ doesn't make the top 10 SS either or slides in at 9 or 10.

Hawks just blitzing Leafs 6-2 now. Toews with 2 goals 2 assists and Kubalik with 2 goals, Those two have been piling up the points together , The 2nd Kubalik goal was amazing highlight reel stuff . He took a cross ice pass from Toews knee high skating down the left side and batted it in from about 5 feet ft out. You see guys bat pucks in usually from close in on rebounds enough but not like Kubalik just did very often. Kubalik 9 goals in last 7 games. Leads all rookies in goals.

If you are going to be a solid bench player you better be multi positional and hit righties good considering most pitchers are righties, Rather have a lefty who plays multiple positions like Holt or Gennett. If Madrigal struggles at all a LH PH and a guy who can sub for long stretches is better. Baseball is ideal for LHH , get as many as you can.

Have you checked his stats since he was 30 ? Not impressive. There's not many if any teams he could start for now . Most of the FA's left are fighting for table scraps now, I'm not buying the fit either, I'd rather have Brad Miller, Holt or Flores if they are going to still get an infielder. Gennett too if his medicals check out. He put up a career year in 2018 then followed it up with a disaster of a 2019 mostly due to injury. But I'd also be fine with Mendick.

Nothing is clear here . When you put Vaughn=Bellinger the blinders go on to the rest of your post.

Brantley at 2. I wanted him for RF when he was a FA and I got all kind of blow back here. That's to be expected though. People were leery of his past injuries and age and how he'd fit in the competitive timeline.

LOL I thought you meant as a hitter he was like Bellinger. not his all around game since the only thing you cited was the hitting ceiling. But yea I knew you'd get the usual Vaughn is not Bellinger stuff . Actually a lot of people here are penciling Vaughn into the lineup as early as 2021. But I need to see a really good year from him at Birmingham before I get too excited. That's usually where Sox prospects go to die. It's a very pitcher friendly park. So sorry if I am also raining on your parade but not for the same reasons as the others . Frank did great at Birmingham , not sure if it was the same park though. 1.068 OPS. I'd be stoked if Vaughn could put up a .900 OPS there in 300 AB's. Luis Robert had an .880 OPS there in 244 plate appearances.

They've been playing good for the past 3 or so weeks. 9-4 in their last 13 games. 3 in a row. Lehner winning like 7 of his last 8. Kubalik's stepped up big time in Saad's absence. Just when everyone starts talking about Hawks selling at the trade deadline they start playing well. Maybe they put Saad on the block since they've proved they don't need him or just keep Kubalik , Kane and Toews together and put Saad on another line. Maybe they get even better when Saad returns possibly tonight and whenever Strome gets back but do not break up Kubalik Kane and Toews. Kubalik has a really sneaky fast shot and has been getting to the front of the net getting rebounds and tips. Kubalik seems to have got the 5 hole shot down perhaps an influence from Toews. I always thought the Hawks had enough depth to keep Kane and Toews together . Colliton would be wise to keep it that way. His prior reluctance to keep Toews and Kane together for the sake of balance hasn't worked. Hawks have played their best hockey of the season with a few vets out of the lineup. I don't know if that's in Colliton's favor or a knock on him since he's been forced to mix things up more.

I know Frank was a 1st ballot HOFer but all those guys on steroids pissed me off because Frank probably lost an MVP to one ( Giambi) and didn;t make a lot of All star teams either for a guy who had a great 7 year run . His 1st 2 full seasons he came in 3rd and 8th in MVP balloting and didnt make the All STar team either year. 1993 and 1994 he won back to back MVP's and made his 1st 2 All star teams. Frank could have won the Triple Crown and appeared in a World Series if not for the 1994 strike. He also had a .494 OBP in 94 . Frank went 1 for 1 in 93 and 2 for 2 in 94 so 1st 3 All Star AB's he got 3 hits. 1995 8th in MVP votes and made 3rd All star team. Frank wins the HR Derby and hits a HR in the game. 1 for 2 with 2 RBI 1996 8th in MVP again and 4th All Star team. No At bats in the game. 1997 3rd in MVP voting and 5th All Star team and last. Again no AB's for Frank 1998 off year for Frank only a .381 OBP instead of his usual ,450 ! 2000 age 32 2nd in MVP voting no All Star game. even though he was hitting .333 with 26 HR's at the break. So for his whole Career Frank only had 5 All Star AB's and had 4 hits. Not sure if he got any walks . The box scores I found weren't that comprehensive on Baseball Almanac. 2003 age 35 15th in MVP no All Star game 2006 with Oakland age 38 3rd in MVP voting as a DH only No All Star game 2007 with Toronto 23rd in MVP and no All Star game. According to Frank he got snubbed 8 times for the All Star team Frank made 14 post season All Star teams but those don't really count.

Is the Teoscar Hernandez comment another throwaway or should I take it seriously ? Using wRC+ indicates Donaldson was 32% above league average and Abreu was 17% above league average OFFENSIVELY which are the stats myself and Balta have been discussing since we agree that Donaldson holds much more value defensively . Teoscar Hernandez had a wRC+ of 93 or 7% below league average. Seeing as how you and I have no idea how either will do in the future due to injury or performance , telling me who is going to be more valuable as a DH in the future has no significance at all.

I like a happy medium so thanks. I do however think wRC+ is better than WAR for offensive contributions . Donaldson's was 132 and Abreu 117 . If that difference is worth 1.5 fWAR then maybe the offensive difference is greater than I think or I just shouldn't argue using advanced stats.

Exactly I am not begrudging the Donaldson contract at all and his worth. I just don't think anyone can say it makes the Abreu contract look worse that we already thought it was. Only time will tell not our opinions .

The original premise of my post was that the Donaldson contract made the Abreu contract look worse as was stated by Tom Pickle and seconded by some others. I don't think that's true if you use your heart and soul and yes even if you look at the contracts . I don't think it makes the Abreu contract look bad at all. Arguing over the perceived difference in offensive contributions means little to the original premise. Yes Donaldson had a better offensive year. I can admit that but I don't think it was significant and even if you or others think it is significant do you think the Donaldson contract makes the Abreu contract look worse than it originally appeared ? I don't.

For you Balta since I am a swell guy. AAV much different because it was 22 years ago but overall money is higher.

I guess you will have to do your own research on those contracts. But you can agree Donaldson is one year older than Abreu since that is a fact. I also find it odd that despite your railings about people duties as human beings in the Sign stealing scandal that you completely ignored the part of my post about how Abreu stacks up as a model citizen and role model. As far as the difference in OPS I figured that would be the 1st thing I heard about. OPS+ JD 127 ,Abreu 119 . So to use one stat against your one stat it's not that big of a difference and that fielding and the position they play is much of the difference in WAR numbers , But maybe you can't agree on that either. Can you agree that since Donaldson is a year older and plays a more physically demanding position that he is more likely to drop off in production before Abreu ? Perhaps not . It is just one year. If the Abreu contract is viewed as an overpay cannot the same be said of the Donaldson contract ? Which contract is more likely to hurt the team if both go bad sooner rather than later ? Frankly I don't like any comparison between the 2 contracts . It is apples and oranges and It might even be apples and watermelons since Abreu has played a roll as player ,role model, recruiter ,member of the community and might even get a statue right next to Minosos in the future. Donaldson hasn't done squat yet for the Twins.

Right but as you said one is a 3rd baseman and the other a 1st baseman, Donaldson got the 2nd largest contract in MLB history for a guy 33 or older and he turned 34 a month ago. 4 years $92M guaranteed from a team he has as of yet made no contributions to. Much of the difference in WAR is due to how WAR is accumulated defensively at 3rd base as compared to 1st base if we can agree ( which we probably can't} that their offensive sides were pretty much equal. Donaldson played on a team that was much better than the White Sox. So, yes, despite many being disappointed in what Abreu got paid and view it as an over pay if put in the proper perspective there are also quite a few posters, judging by the comments in the "rate the off season" thread, that the contract isn't as terrible . Of course one has to look at it from more than a purely market value view to judge it that way. Abreu is a White Sox for life and he has always wanted to be. He views the Sox as an organization with tradition for treating Cuban players well. He idolized Minoso as did Alexei Ramirez and he is doing with Moncada and Robert what Minoso did for him and Alexei. There is a lot of human value in that and you have to be pretty cold hearted if as a Sox fan if you can't recognize that and that human value translated into his contract. Maybe there are those who want to view the contract as just what it is, an overpay based on market value. Only the money and years matter. But for those with a sense of tradition and those who recognize who the White Sox are as an organization and the role they have played and the respect they have garnered with Cubans , the Abreu contract means a lot more. Just as Minoso is idolized by Abreu , Abreu is idolized by Moncada and Robert and maybe ,just maybe we can find a little space in our hearts to give Abreu his due as a player and as a proud member of a noble White Sox tradition. https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/page/springtraining_minoso/as-mlb-heads-back-cuba-minnie-minoso-legacy-joy-lives-on this is the link I used as a reference to write my own words on the matter.

A least you make sense . It was Tom Pickle a few pages back that started the comparison saying it made Abreu's contract look worse. Of course others are defending Abreu.

Please is that just a WAR thing ?

Sox still may move a catcher so keeping Zavala around might be necessary atm .

If someone claims him it's just a reason for a 2nd party.

Ha I saw he was DFA'd in the Cishek thread and I thought "Here we go, counting down to the Covey thread in 3, 2 ,1 .... "