CaliSoxFanViaSWside

QUOTE (Marty34 @ Nov 20, 2013 -> 06:47 PM) Kinsler will be an albatross for the Tigers. Even though Fielders numbers have declined the last 2 years , Cabrera still won 2 MVP's with Fielder behind him and got less intentional walks. Does Cabrera move to 1st ? Does Kinsler play 1st, Cabrera 3rd and the Tigers go after Robinson Cano ? Or is it money freed up to try and resign Scherzer and/or extend Verlander ? Tigers did very well to get out from under that contract and I have a suspicion they have another interesting move coming.

QUOTE (CWSpalehoseCWS @ Nov 20, 2013 -> 04:35 PM) That makes a lot of sense actually. Although, then the Sox really don't have a veteran presence off the bench. IDK if that is necessarily important, but I'm not sure how I feel of a bunch of young players making up the bench. Carlos Sanchez is the 3rd leading hitter in the Venezeulan Winter League. .361 BA 119 AB 43 hits, 2 doubles, 2 triples, 1 HR, 13 BB , 20 K , .434 OBP , .437 SLG, .871 OPS http://mlb.mlb.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?po...&pid=570560 Andy Wilkins there also doing well http://mlb.mlb.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?po...&pid=519421

QUOTE (Jake @ Nov 20, 2013 -> 02:41 PM) http://brooksbaseball.net/outcome.php?play...13&s_type=2 He quit using his screwball when he went to the bullpen because he needed more time in warmups to find his release point. He just throws an odd one here and there now. Maybe, with an offseason of being relatively certain that he gets the rotation spot he deserves, he will be able to implement his screwgie. What is amazing is that he almost never used a changeup before that and turned it into a useable pitch on the fly a year after pulling a screwball out of his ass and making that into a good pitch. His ability to learn pitches as well as use his fastball to get outs has been astounding. Maybe should try a split finger pitch then. A lot of pitchers have sucess with it. I can't even remember the last guy the Sox had who threw one unless you count Contrersas and his forkball. Doesn't seem like they teach it in the Sox system perhaps because it's hard on the elbow and shoulder ?

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Nov 19, 2013 -> 02:11 PM) A trade works too and I missed if I failed to include that this time. Basically my perspective is this. If the scouts say the Sox have a remote chance of having a long-term option in Phlowgley, then maybe you look for a LH hitting backup and go with 1 of them as the starter. If they say you're screwed if you count on these people, then you need to come away with a long-term option somewhere and get working on them. If you've got a trade that works, great, do it. The only thing I don't want to see is a 1 year stopgap starter that actually costs money. $500k is ok, but anything more than that is completely backwards and the opposite of everything we should be doing. I think we're pretty similiar in our thinking except for the bolded part. You're not going to get much of anything for that price. I think a veteran LH at catcher is necessary and a platoon isnt backwards or the opposite of everything we should be doing just the reality of catching these days.

QUOTE (raBBit @ Nov 19, 2013 -> 01:26 PM) Not trying to be one of those guys but Phegley had an OBP of .223 in quite a decent sample size. Flowers has outperformed Phegley in that respect every season in all sorts of varying sample sizes. I am not making a case that Flowers should start, just that he is a better back up than Phegley. It's cool . We're arguing about the tallest midget here. I think Flowers had his shot and he'll never be able to hit. I'll go with the younger guy until Phegley has had his comparative shot . I wouldn't be upset at all about Flowers being a backup (again) while Phegs get more AB's in the minors as long as we have a LH catcher for most of the AB's against righties .

QUOTE (Jake @ Nov 19, 2013 -> 01:21 PM) Phegley had a 34 wRC+ last year. 34!! His "good" month, July, was 59. Then 28. Then 17. He had the worst wRC+ of any MLB player that had as many at-bats as he did. Among the big sluggers who hit better are Jeff Francouer, Jamey Carroll, Brendan Ryan, Pete Kozma, Chris Getz, B.J. "worst season ever" Upton, Tyler Flowers, Jeff Keppinger. This is a rate stat, meaning those players didn't have an advantage by having more plate appearances. He was just literally the worst batter in all of baseball. This wasn't a deal where he started looking better as time went on, either. It was pretty much unfathomable awfulness after the first 5 games or so. He got progressively worse. That doesn't mean he sucks or should be released, but it makes little sense at this point to argue that he should do well in the MLB. He has been pushed aggressively throughout his career and he needs more fine tuning. Being in MLB made him worse. He needs to go hit in AAA again - it was the first time his wRC+ ever rated him as above his league's average, short of two o Trust me I am not enamored of Phegley but i am moreso than Flowers who has had 3 years to show something, anything and he hasn't. As I said before Phegley's progression has been severly stunted due to health and defintely can use more developmental time. He just was having a good year in the minors and the Sox had huge problems at catcher. He had to be given a shot. Yes he was terrible as was every catcher on the team last year. Degree's of terrible are still terrible and I can aceept it a lot more with Phegley than I can with Flowers because it was his 1st crack at the Bigs.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Nov 19, 2013 -> 01:18 PM) I don't know about going young. Phegley is only 2 years younger than Flowers. 26 is still young enough that if you can start hitting ML pitching that you'll likely have the job for 3-6 years . That's the definition of long term solution when talking about catchers.

QUOTE (raBBit @ Nov 19, 2013 -> 12:52 PM) In the majority of the posts, we see a lot of Flowers/Phegley because obviously no one knows which one sticks around but there has been little talk as to which one does stick around. I am definitely leanings towards Flowers when you consider the fact that he is more refined, has shown good defense prior to last year and is probably the better bat in terms of a LH/RH platoon. Throw in the fact that Phegley has more options and it's pretty clear. I don't know how much of his shoulder injury limited him but regardless he seems like the better option. Things on Flowers' side: good rapport with pitchers, better defense, more offensive potential, better/more sustained success in the minors, better swing, better approach, better against LHP. Things on Phegley's side: less time sucking in the majors, an unconventional trajectory in development due to strange ailment, ...... Anyone care to make a case for the latter? Don't think you can make the case Flower's is better at hitting LHP . He hit. 151 against LHP last year . 2012 he was better, 2011 worse than he hit RHP. Phegley's time last year he hit .261 against LHP in his 1st exposure to ML pitching while K' ing 15% less than Flowers. What good is a better swing/approach if you can't make contact ? After 2 trials as a backup and 1 as the starter Flowers has been a huge failure. I don't even see why you think he has any offensive potential let alone more than Phegly, while being 2 years older.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Nov 19, 2013 -> 12:33 PM) I think they realize neither is a #1 catcher. Flowers has shown in the past he can be a good back up. They liked him so much as a back up they gave him the #1 job, and as you pointed out, had zero back up plan. I don't think the Sox liked him so much as a backup that they gave him the starting job. It was more of well, you've been a backup for a bit now AJ is getting old and Flowers showed power , that he could take a walk and was cheaper that the circumstances combined to give him a shot. They're in a position now to give Phegley every chance to prove he can be that the #1 catcher. Flowers K's at a rate even higher than Dunn without showing he can get hot for a 3 month period like Dunn can. If Phegley can hit .250 ( which seems realistic ) and increase his walk rate , provide some power the position will be his for 3-4 years given how bad the market is for catchers. Just need that LH veteran backup behind him. If they can't give Phegley a chance at being #1 what's the sense of going young ?

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Nov 19, 2013 -> 12:17 PM) I agree. From what I have read, they still seem much higher on Flowers than Phegley. As I have stated before, I still think Flowers is a fine back up. I don't get that at all . Flower's is getting a bit long in the tooth ( 28 when the season starts) for the Sox to be higher on him than Phegley and that 34% K rate was really high. Injuries comments aside I haven't read a thing to think Flowers is preferred over Phegley.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Nov 19, 2013 -> 12:04 PM) Yeah, that's what I meant. Those quotes definitely did suggest that the Sox could have soured on him, and the fact that they're constantly linked to every catcher who is available (not just by us) could suggest that as well. Then again, they could just be doing their due diligence as well. I won't know the answer to that question until mid-Feb. I think that more an indication that Hahn didn't adequately prepare for a full blown Flowers implosion than anything. Any time you have a youngish catcher geting his 1st big opportunity ,a well established ML catcher as a backup is a must and Hahn didn't do that. It's more an indictment of himself than anything else.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Nov 19, 2013 -> 11:47 AM) I'm pretty sure I predicted everyone jumping off his ship before he was even called up. That said...if the team/org/scouts are jumping off his ship too, there might be a reason. Is there anything you've seen that indicates anyone in the org. is jumping off his ship? I read as much as probably anyone about the Sox and I haven't seen anything except Hahn saying he may have overlooked ( or something along those lines) the catching situation. I remember the excitement in the game threads that 1st week or 2 he was up and hitting HR's and getting late inning hits. Then pitcher's started throwing him a lot of stuff out of the zone. He definitely needs to refine his approach. He seems a bit hyperactive at the plate . Looks like he is capable of being a decent hitter if he can lay off the crap, but that's the battle every prospect has to make to MLB pitching ,Semien too.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Nov 19, 2013 -> 11:28 AM) Travis D'Arnaud was one of the top rated prospects in the minors coming into the year. Given, Phegley was repeating AAA (I think for the 3rd time), but compare their numbers there and then at the majors. I think there's a bigger adjustment for catchers than people realize. Not only that but for a guy like Phegley who never had 400 AB's in any minor league season because of his health issues, he was way behind the curve as far as hitting and catching high quality pitches. When looking at his body of work I think he has advanced fairly quickly given his health problems.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Nov 19, 2013 -> 10:29 AM) I was under the impression that most people had given up on Phegley and Flowers. A lot of people have given up on Phegley which I find really hard to comprehend. He didn't set the world on fire in his trial with the Sox but he's the closest thing the Sox have to a long term solution which seems to be the key words I keep hearing. He didn't take walks, he flailed away at a lot of bad pitches but he still struck out 15% less than Flowers ,is 2 years younger, and had a very good year in the minors. I think any lefthanded or switch hitting catcher at this point makes sense for the Sox. Sure we'd like him to be a possible long term solution or have some pop , OBP skills or be a defensive whiz but every catcher out there seems to have issues. You can still build a competitive team without having any sort of permanent solution or a platoon at some positions. If or when the Sox get a LH hitting catcher there won't be much point in whining about it because the pickings are slim. There's much more talent at other positions to spend money on . When Matt Weiters wants a Mauer type contract it just tells you how desperate teams are for catching.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Nov 18, 2013 -> 07:34 AM) I stand by the idea that De Aza is a really good defensive LF. I'm glad it's just an idea because I'm not sure if there is any proof of it. De Aza in CF was even worse than Viciedo in left.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Nov 18, 2013 -> 07:01 AM) And to remember how to catch the ball. Or get some players who don't have to remember since guys like Viciedo and De Aza will have a hard time even being average outfielders ever.

QUOTE (Marty34 @ Nov 17, 2013 -> 11:47 AM) You have the Sox contending in 2014? I don't have anything except wanting Hahn not be hamstrung by one more roster spot taken by Konerko thus making the team less versatile, less athletic, slower and any other negatives Konerko returning brings.

QUOTE (Marty34 @ Nov 17, 2013 -> 10:20 AM) If he isn't hitting by the middle of May he'll retire. Thereby putting the Sox in a position to scramble for a replacement or waste their whole offeseason not looking for a better option ? I hope this is the last thing that happens and he decides not to return . He's already taking too long to make up his mind.

QUOTE (Marty34 @ Nov 16, 2013 -> 10:56 AM) Exactly. The ONLY thing Konerko will cost the Sox is a roster spot for 6 weeks. So you either think Konerko will suck and then renege on his committment to another full year or get hurt and be out for the year. Or maybe the Chicago Nice Sox management which said he's earned the right to be on the team if he wants will suddenly realize what a huge mistake they made and jettisoned him to the scrap heap ?

Kenny Williams

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Nov 15, 2013 -> 06:08 PM) http://www.csnchicago.com/white-sox/de-aza...&ocid=yahoo Hahn on frustration with DeAza....and his positive attributes (seems like he was taking a page out of the message boards.) I have always stayed out of the arguments about De Aza mainly because some arguing about his positive attributes seem to think those arguing against him have sort sort of hatred for him based on remembrance of his baserunning blunders. 26 outs on the bases is ridiculously high considering 8 of them were caught stealing. To me it practicully negates his ability to go from 1st to 3rd on a single or 1st to home on a double and his 20 stolen bases. His UZR went from 8.9 in 2011 (only 376 innings ) to -1.3 (1133 innings) in 2012 to -2.5 (1315 innings) last year. His WAR from 2.5 and 2.3 the last 2 years to -.30. Furthur the Bill James 2014 handbook grades De Aza as the worst CF with a -18 DRS. I'm sure the 2014 Bill James handbook would have more on his baserunning too but I'm relying on this http://www.southsidesox.com/2013/11/16/511...s-handbook-2014 , so I have limited info. All in all De Aza had a pretty bad year and those claiming he is adequate in CF are not right based on his UZR and especialy his DRS.

QUOTE (beck72 @ Nov 16, 2013 -> 09:35 AM) I think Semien will start in AAA rotating between 3b and 2b. Ready to step in should guys struggle at either spot in bigs. I too expect Beckham to be dealt. Which would leave 2b a battle between Leury Garcia, Sanchez, and Semien. Curiously enough, Garcia is younger than Semien. Texas pushed him at higher levels. He definitely needs more time in the minors. I said it probably right after the season in one thread or another after seeing basically no walks and a bunch of K's in his Sox AB's . I think he'll be an average to above average fielder depending on what position he plays eventually and he seems like a pretty good baserunner though it's hard to determine that right now.

I have no idea what this means in a Dan Hayes article on CSN . With the way the roster is currently constructed, Hahn estimates the White Sox payroll sits around $80 million after accounting for arbitration raises and Jose Abreu’s $68 million contract. http://www.csnchicago.com/white-sox/hahn-w...maneuver-roster

Seems like a very decent guy. Good luck Dan with all future endeavors .

QUOTE (bucket-of-suck @ Nov 15, 2013 -> 01:36 PM) No doubt. It's a two way street for signing and trading players but trust me the Sox F.O. is in aggressive mode these days. And lets face it they just can't trade bad players for good players. It's a daunting task. Let's hope agressive has some positive results.