nitetrain8601

QUOTE (bigruss22 @ Feb 7, 2016 -> 01:45 PM) Tiley is out of the running per Shannon Ryan, we're going to be stuck with Tom Michael aren't we? If we do I seriously may take a prolonged break from all Illini athletics, it would be just about the worst we could do. It makes you long for the days of Ron Guenther. Illinois is a big university that has acted like a small D3 for a few years now.

QUOTE (ozzfest @ Feb 6, 2016 -> 02:56 PM) --I am astonished at the above claiming that we as a fan base shouldn't be questioning a front office group who has been running basketball operations for 14 seasons now and has failed spectacularly time and time again. What is even more puzzling is this asinine narrative fed directly from the puppeteering mouth of one Dan Bernstein and Co. asking fans over the radio, "Well what would you want them to do, or who would you want replacing them, or who can do a better job?" What the hell are we talking about here? I mean honestly. Its not rocket science. An ex player/broadcaster has been running this team for 14+ seasons, and hasn't won. Period. Zero championships. Yet, John Paxson is one of the longest tenured executives in the NBA. Who are the others you ask? Pat Riley with the Heat. RC Buford with the Spurs. Danny Ainge with the Celtics. Mitch Kupchak with the Lakers. Now there is a reason they are the longest tenured. Its because these four men each have won championships as executives. Besides physically assaulting a coach and hitting a few corner 3's in the 90's, what the hell has John Paxson brought to this organization? It is clear that many of the fans who defend this unbelievably incompetent, complacent front office group are not truly aware of the many bright minds that are significantly more qualified and deserving than these moronic buffoons known as GarPax. Here are 5 different names that will get the ball rolling. First-Larry Riley. Essentially the architect behind the 2015 NBA Champion Golden State Warriors. Has a litany of draft successes including Steph Curry, Klay Thompson, Draymond Green and Harrison Barnes. That alone qualifies him as a viable candidate. In addition to drafting well, Riley has shown a willingness to be creative in the FA and trade market (yes, to the surprise of some Bulls fans, this is another responsibility of an NBA executive). In 2012, Riley shipped oft-injured guard Monte Ellis to the Milwaukee Bucks for big man Andrew Bogut and forward Stephen Jackson. This was a bit unpopular among Warrior fans. However, we see now that this move jumpstarted the building phase of an elite group. As far as replacements are concerned, Riley falls at the top of my list. Second, Miami Heat General Manager/Cap Man/Pat Riley's #2 Andy Elisberg. All you need to know about Andy Elisberg is that he is directly responsible for the Heat acquiring LBJ and Bosh in 2010. A guy who specializes in the salary cap, in addition to working under Pat Riley for 10+ seasons now, Elisberg would be a fine, albeit less realistic choice to replace the incredibly incompetent GarPax. Third on the list is Jeff Weltman, who serves under Masai Ujiri as the Assistant GM for the Toronto Raptors. Plain and simple, Weltman is an extremely well respected scout. He is highly regarded among NBA circles. It also doesn't hurt to work under the tutelage of one of the brightest executives in the league. Fourth is Troy Weaver, who is the Assistant GM with the Thunder as Sam Presti's #2. Weaver is known to be a respected scout having heavily recruited Carmelo Anthony to Syracuse and having a direct role in the Thunder's selection of Russell Westbrook. Finally, Brian Puaga, Director of Scouting for the San Antonio Spurs. In addition to this role, Puaga serves as General Manager for the Spurs D-League affiliate team. Plain and simple, Puaga is considered a rising star in the NBA's gold standard organization having climbed up the R.C Buford tree since being hired in 2007. Now, keep in mind these are jump 5 names off the top of my head. There are countless others who could do twice the job Forman and Paxson have done in 14+ seasons. Remember, 5 playoff series wins since 1999. 4 out of 5 wins within the last 5 years under Tom Thibodeau. Paxson was given the job in 2003. He previously played, broadcasted and was an assistant coach for one season before entering the role. He served as General Manager from 2003 to 2009. In 2009, he physically assaulted Vinny Del Negro and instead of being fired immediately, he was instantly promoted to VP of Basketball Operations, a role he currently serves in today. If we as fans are seriously interested in change, and I mean real change, we better get serious about ridding this organization of BOTH Gar Forman and John Paxson and not one or the other.

QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Jan 22, 2016 -> 01:13 PM) He's Jay Marriotti 2.0. And i'm pretty certain he wasn't very good with Sox info when he was covering them. Getting outsourced by nerdy internet message board posters... I understand he wasn't good with the Sox towards the end as he let personal vendettas affect his reporting. But this will be the last time I repeat this: He's been very accurate on his Bulls reporting.

QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Jan 22, 2016 -> 12:50 PM) You're doubling down on terrible sources here... He seems like a racist and misogynistic person, but there's a reason why he has a job and its been because he actually reports things. He hasn't been wrong in any of the info he's reported on the Bulls that I can think of. Maybe you can.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jan 22, 2016 -> 08:14 AM) There is your first problem. To be fair, they had Cowley on and he's been spot in with his bulls reporting. Only guy who won't sugarcoat it. He mentioned Noah's knee being way more jacked up than the FO wanted you to believe when no one else would report it as an example. Either which way, he said Gar isn't on great standing and that he's trying to create relationships with other organizations. People in the organization feel he's a jackass too. There's been rumors about that before from players. Come to think of it, Paxsons demise really came at the behest of Gar's intro to power. Aldridge was a Paxson guy but Gar convinced Paxson to get Tyrus instead. Once Gar became GM, Pax really stopped making trades that improved the squad. Mostly its been dumping guys past their prime. Gar made the decision to let go of Ron Adams in a power play with Thibs. He's the one who chose Teague over Draymond which was Adams and Thibs choice. That led to Adams questioning Gar's draft analysis. He's also the one that block Thibs from hiring his choice for strength and conditioning coach who the Spurs hired once the Bulls passed. It would fit Paul Shirley's narrative for sure from years back. He's basically an asshole who has no regard for people and he gets promoted due to sweet talking his way up, not really earning his way on paper. Lastly, I'll leave you with this thought, Gar picked Snell, traded away assets for McDermott and picked Fred Hoiberg - all guys who have ties to New Mexico and Iowa State.

QUOTE (fathom @ Jan 20, 2016 -> 09:59 PM) What the hell happened to Mirotic? Just awful I remember when people roasted Fran fraschella when he said his potential is good hero turkoglu at best. People were offended and said he certainly be better. Can't be the system though. Paxson hired the guy to make sure guys like mitotic and McDermott weren't held back.

QUOTE (Quinarvy @ Jan 20, 2016 -> 03:34 PM) How about this: GarPax have drafted an MVP, a ROY (and a runner up), a DPOY, a sixth man of the year (and a runner up), four All-Stars, multiple All-NBA defensive players, and signed an All-NBA 1st Team center. Other than the Spurs, you'd be hard-pressed to find a better drafting team with the only blunders being Teague over Draymond and Snell. They've cleared space and tried to sign big tier free agents multiple times. But the Heatles happened and Melo decided money was better than winning. The FO lucked into Rose. No one can dispute that. So take away his awards to be honest. As far as the other awards, you've named multiple ones for the same players. And again, none of those players were as good if not better before or after thibs.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jan 20, 2016 -> 03:29 PM) OK at drafting? You can't seriously look at this team, and call them OK. They have drafted and developed MULTIPLE All-stars in the sport that is the single hardest sport to get an all-star in. Even past Rose, you are neglecting Deng, Noah, and Butler. The Bulls aren't horrible at trades, they just don't make many trades. They are scared. Those are two different things. The Bulls suck at getting Grade A free agents, but have done amazing things at plucking players who are either no names, or fallen out of favor for some reason, and turning them into useful parts. The front office definitely doesn't give a s*** about public appearance, and I do get the feeling that they think coaching is not important. Deng, Noah, and Butler were not all stars before thibs. Only Butler will be after Thibs. Thibs got everything he could out of this team - the job of the coach, but was fired. The Bulls have put a flawed roster out there, and didn't do everything they could to win. Yet they're still here. Again its been 13 years. If you don't want to fire them now, you never will.

QUOTE (bmags @ Jan 20, 2016 -> 03:25 PM) Maybe, but that said I hate the argument that essentially says the bulls could never have done anything differently (what more could they have done for a FA, the other teams had better offers for a trade). While, fine, in 10 they lost out on the FAs fair and square when they set themselves up fine, but in 14 they tried to convince Melo to take half the money. That's not serious. Also, they are responsible for the talent/assets on roster. They have had a preference for older established vets on roster over younger, higher upside players (miami has whiteside, the bulls have kirk hinrich!). They traded 2 firsts for Doug McDermott. They missed out on Green for Teague. They are above average, and had tragic luck. The Warriors would not win a title if Steph Curry blows out his knee and Draymond green fights plantar fascitis. But comparable teams and situations (Spurs, Heat, Warriors, Rockets) have seen them draft, sign and trade much more effectively to get them over the hump. The Bulls sign a Boozer and Gasol. That said, nobody could have ever experienced the injuries bulls had and won a championship. Fair assessment. My issue is, if the FO got a pass for that, then the coaching staff should've as well. And instead of constantly fighting with their coaches, they should be helping them and enabling them. You think Jimmy is gonna run laps for Thibs if he knows the FO wants Tom gone no matter what? Hell no.

QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Jan 20, 2016 -> 02:30 PM) Even if that's the case, they're in the top 4-6 teams in the NBA. That makes them contenders. No theyre not Spurs Warriors Clippers OKC Cleveland Miami

QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Jan 20, 2016 -> 02:29 PM) I don't even know how to analyze that list. But if I go back to Paxson's era I'd say it is Hawks and Bulls and than no one else is even close. Bears are probably 3rd (again, spanning Paxson's run...Cubs would probably rank last and Sox would rank 4th). Like I said, Paxson did a good job turning this team from garbage into a playoff team. Just like a coach or player need to be replaced because they can't take you further if you're not at the mountaintop then they need to be replaced. 07 is when Paxson stopped being good.

QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Jan 20, 2016 -> 02:05 PM) They could have traded Taj and Dunleavy if they really wanted to make room. Or they could have worked out a sign and trade. It still came down to Melo choosing that extra 30-40 million in guaranteed money. Damn GarPax for not convincing him otherwise! Look, if you follow the team annually you know that last year, regardless of Rose's ability to get back to MVP form, the players had had enough of Thibs. Not just the FO, but also the team. The team was relatively healthy against the Cavs and simply could not score points against a depleted Cavs roster. That's why Thibs was canned. It was time and every reasonable person could see that. The way they went about it was wrong, but in the end I could care less about that. Great, you're trading Noah. To who? Who's taking him and giving a good return? That's why you trade Noah and Deng and whoever else at their peak. Not when their used up and done. That was the point! And if no one is tradeabke in the squad, that's on the front office. But the front office has said this is a championship caliber roster. If they misidentified that, then that's on them as well. They fired a coach after the front offices dirty laundry was aired so they failed there as well. See where I'm going?

QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Jan 20, 2016 -> 01:29 PM) UGh, this is just infuriating. You're so unrealistic. Not signing FA's is completely out of their control given the NBA signing rules. Other teams can offer max contracts with more money. The Bulls can only offer max money. Period. Everyone and their mother agree that the Bulls roster was the best to join in both 2010 for Lebron and again in 2014 for Melo. So not only did the Bulls do a good enough job making room available to sign those guys to max deals, they ALSO did well enough to keep the roster full enough to be contenders. How do you not see that? Making trades. Wtf trade is out there. You're going to trade Noah, the defensive player of the year and all-nba center for Love, the oft-injured PF that hadn't sniffed the playoffs. And you're going to do that WHILE IGNORING THAT OTHER TEAMS HAD BETTER ASSETS AND MINNESOTA ENDED UP GETTING A GREAT DEAL FOR HIM IN THE END. Flip Saunders is not a stupid man. The Aldridge trade looks bad in hindsight, fine. GM's make mistakes. From the post-Rose era, however, there was no trade they could have made that didn't completely empty the coffers for a championship run. What you want is for the Bulls to be the Nets right now. Go for broke, leverage the future and get stuck being terrible for another 5 years straight. No thanks. I'd rather they continue to put out a competitive product that is sometimes fun to watch and that has a CHANCE at getting to the Finals. Without any superstar on their roster, that's the best you can ask for. Nice post. I stopped reading when you said the Bulls ensured they had enough cap space for Melo. They didn't and they wanted him to come in on a 2 year deal so when the cap rose, they could sign him to a max then which is illegal. Bulls couldn't even offer the non bird max. Blame that on retaining kirk Hiinrich when they did. I can't blame the FO for Rose getting hurt, but the FO blamed Thibs for not winning with Rose hurt as well. They let go of his top assistant who BTW had the best relationship with your superstar player and was voted assistant of the year last year in a power play with their coach. Look up Friedell and KC Johnson reports. Bulls fired this for basketball reasons and didn't think this "championship caliber roster" was meeting expectations under their old coach who kept making the playoffs every year with Nate Robinson and DJ Augustin leading the way. This surpassed expectations and was fired. You're best argument was that Paxson met or underachieved because of Rose - but they're still here. And first you want a star, and now you want to get the star under your terms. But he hadn't made the playoffs!! Anthony Davis didn't prior to last year and won't this year. Look the other way, he's not a superstar!!!!! In addition, I argued to trade Joakim at his peak. His usage was way too high and he had already broken down in the playoffs. A guy with no offensive game wasn't going to be able to keep that play up, especially being a proven injury prone player as well.

Honestly, this isn't a discussion that will change anyone's minds. People believe what they believe. I guess it depends on what side of the fence you are on. As a fan, would you rather make the playoffs every year with no realistic shot at competing for a championship or would you rather compete for championships and actually make it to the Finals. Paxson is risk adverse. PS, I said trade Noah for Love. I also said trade Noah for Melo. Bulls refused to add him in either deal which is where negotiations stopped. Funny people get criticized for video game trades, but those are the only ones the Bulls attempt and fail miserably at. Fact is: Bulls suck at getting FAs Bulls suck at making trades Bulls suck at evaluating their medical staff Bulls are OK at drafting. And honestly, without Butler, they're mediocre at it Bulls are horrid with coaching relationships. But somehow that makes them a tip line front office. I guess as long the playoff tickets are available for a round, its all good. I measure my FOs in championships and appearances. Not how many times they got exposed in the playoffs for a weak roster makeup in a very weak conference.

QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Jan 20, 2016 -> 11:27 AM) They have a broken Rose who is no longer an all star let alone superstar. Didn't the Bulls draft Butler? A guy pretty close to Khawi? Does that not count? Do the Bulls have 2-3 other Hall of Fame players and the greatest coach of the last 2 decades and one of the best ever? You need to come back to reality a little and adjust your expectations. Kawhi is leading the Spurs to championships. Yet he ays in the same league as the Bulls were LeBron and Curry are god. I wonder how he did it. Oh wait, his FO goes out and gets FAs and they make the necessary trades. Miami 6 years ago was s***. Had no assets other than Wade. Yet they aggressively went after guys and even after they got the big three, they went after guys like Ray Allen. So I ask again, why does the excuse train get to keep rolling when every other exec hasnt.

QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Jan 20, 2016 -> 10:21 AM) They did go after melo and love. Other teams had better assets or could offer more money. Bulls should've offered up Noah for Love. They refused to though Gasol was already in the bag. Denver flat out moved on from the Bulls when they stated they flat out wouldn't offer Noah for Melo. Bulls wouldn't offer Deng for prime Gasol from Memphis. Bulls wouldn't offer Asik for Courtney Lee. They flat out aren't offering s*** to teams. Here, have our 8th best player and some worthless picks...

QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Jan 20, 2016 -> 09:57 AM) Because they know it'd be a waste of assets. Cleveland already had Lebron and Irving, Spurs already had Kwahi, along with the Aging Three, GSW already had Curry, Thompson and drafted Green. And the Bulls already had Rose who according to this thread, Paxson is counting hard on Rose despite saying he wouldn't two off seasons ago. Bulls have Rose, Butler, and Pau. What is different between their situations other than the Bulls don't get deals done and the other teams do? And again, the Spurs had to deal for Kawhi from their core. They sold high on George Hill. Something Paxson refuses to do with his guys.

QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Jan 20, 2016 -> 09:54 AM) There's nothing you can do! They offered max contracts to all of the available top FA's out there. Wade, Lebron, Melo, etc. If they don't come here, they don't come here. It's not for a lack of trying or GarPax being reactionary. They set up those FA pushes seasons before so that they could at least be in the conversation. They made roster moves so that they could do the exact thing you're complaining about. You're faulting them for not convincing guys to give up tens of millions or to play with their buddies in a set-up championship roster in Miami. GMAFB. As to the second bolded, you clearly don't understand the NBA. That's how the NBA works. Other leagues don't work like that. There isn't much parity in basketball. Either you get lucky and draft hall of fame players and you compete annually or you don't. Rarely do teams win through free agency. Let's look at the progression here: They draft Rose in 2008. They make the Salmons/Miller moves and make the playoffs. Rose wins Rookie of the Year. They have the epic series against Boston but lose. Rose seems like an all star caliber player. In 2009 that's what happens. They make the playoffs again, lose to Lebron. 2010 season. Rose becomes MVP. They're the best team in the regular season. They lose to the Heat in 5 in a closer series than the number dictates. (also should be pointed out that because Lebron & Co went to Miami, there were slim pickings in terms of FA. They got stuck with Boozer. They should have gone after Lee instead, but that's in hindsight.) 2011, off the MVP season, Rose signs his new max deal. Bulls look even better than 2010. Luol Deng goes from decent starter to All-Star. First game of the playoffs Rose tears the ACL. Gone for a season. Bulls lose. 2012 - no Rose. Bulls still win a playoff series. You can't give up on Rose at this point. One knee injury. It happens. Gotta keep him in the plans for the future. 2013 - Tears his MCL early in the season. Again, no Rose. Noah ends up 4th in MVP voting. At this point you could potentially start planning for a replacement, but you still owe him tons of money. And now you have a seemingly all-nba center, along with an emerging Butler BTW, the job finding replacement PG's on the scrap heap was amazing. You ignore that. 2014 - Again, Bulls back to being pretty good. Hoping that the return of Rose, return of Noah, Pau Gasol and Butler are enough to win. It's not. They should have won that series last year, but didn't. Now is arguably the only time where it was reasonable to start thinking about a post-Rose Bulls roster, and that's pretty much what they do. They get rid of Thibs for Hoiberg because their toilet bowl offense was atrocious and cost them the series. 2015 - Still near the top of the East. Still stuck paying Rose 25 million or whatever for his limited production. Have dealt with injuries to Noah, McDermott, Rose and others. Still winning every game against the top competition. The lone exception is GSW on the road. To me there are a FEW areas where GarPax failed. VDN wasn't a good hire. It didn't kill them since they weren't winning a title with Rose as a rookie anyway. And they were smart enough to switch gears pretty quickly. The Boozer signing wasn't great. They were forced into it given the Lebron debacle, but I still would have preferred Lee and they had a shot to get him. The biggest one to me was not tanking the 2012 season. Talk about a Spurs-like potential future. You have Rose (Robinson) and a shot at Anthony Davis (Duncan). That would have been epic. But really, could the Bulls have done that? They had Noah already. They may have gone SG since that was the big complaint at the time (so maybe Beal or Dion Waters). But is that better than what they eventually got in Butler? No. Big picture, I just don't see what more they could have done. They got stuck with a broken Rose. That's it. If he's the MVP Rose for his career, they probably get past Lebron at least once and get to the Finals. But, he's not, and they were stuck and still probably are because no one would want to take him with that salary. Its one excuse after another. And this is what I mean. I've never seen a GM get this type of pass in any sport, much less basketball. Danny ferry got iced after LeBron left him despite making a contender similar to Pax did with the Bulls. Ferry was promptly fired, but Paxson gets more excuses. Say you're right about FA. Then at that point, you have to aggressively pursue the trade market. Call teams everyday. Get creative. But don't put bulls*** offers on the table and expect for a deal to be made. They should've went after Love and Memo a lot harder when they were up for grabs. But nope, they don't like selling players high either. Sorry, but 13 years of excuses and counting has been way more than enough for me.

QUOTE (AustinIllini @ Jan 20, 2016 -> 10:06 AM) So quick to discard Hoiberg when the team he's coaching lacks any Hoiberg type players. Complete and utter horses***. I'm not blaming hoiberg, but let's go look at the posts on here and realgm. It was stated over and over again - everyone is gonna fit. He's going to free mirotic and McDermott. Noah's passing is gonna be so good in the offense. Rose is gonna be able to have fun with jimmy in this offense. Everyone will love it. There was very few skeptics, and even then, Noah was definitely identified as someone who wouldn't fit. Dunleavy was a guy who might not fit. Snell, Gibson, and kirk were also thought to be guys who wouldn't fit. But let's leave even our opinions on the roster makeup out of it. If Hoiberg didn't have Hoiberg players coming into the season, who's job is it to get Hoiberg players?? Why wasn't that identified last off season? Was it because Paxson was an egotistical maniac who believed the roster he assembled was top of the line? Shouldn't Paxson have identified a coach he thought would fit with this roster as opposed to hiring a yes man with no regard to fit?? Lastly, Pau looks like he's gone. What are the Bulls gonna do to get Hoiberg players? Who is out there? Bulls have shown the inability to sign top tier free agents and make trades. Keep in mind, all the contenders have been able to play FA OE the trade market great. Spurs signed LaMarcus & traded George Hill for Kawhi Leonard (which was seen as a wtf move at the time) Cleveland traded for Love, then Mozgov, Jr Smith, & Shumpert GSW traded away Monta for Bogut. Were able to sign Iguodala (big time deal) at the time. The most frustrating part perhaps is that the Bulls have failed to do deals because of cap flexibility, but have yet to use that flexibility successfully.

QUOTE (buhbuhburrrrlz @ Jan 20, 2016 -> 08:46 AM) When he's off the books? You could've traded him anytime over the past 4/5 years. You telling me Charlotte or the Nets wouldn't have traded for him or still wouldn't? I believe they would. And something tells me after he's off the books, we will be back to the "oh well LeBron is still in the league. Oh Stephen curry is still in the league. The coach is a problem..." excuses again.

PS, I edited out Kobe to failure for not being able to obtain him. I can take him completely out if you want and talk about their failure to obtain prime Pau from Memphis. Continued failure of obtaining impact players. This isn't an outlier, its a trend.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jan 19, 2016 -> 09:26 PM) It's interesting how people can see the "Kobe had the right to veto any trade and wouldn't accept any trade where the Bulls gave up enough for the Lakers to let him go" so many times and then continue to type "They had a shot at Kobe and declined". If you want to rip them, I could get that. If you want a convincing case, stop repeating things that are incorrect and have already been pointed out to be incorrect. I still haven't seen a response to the Butler thing, but fine, I'll even ignore that. How you're going to find "alternatives" to an MVP I don't know, but I'll even ignore that. Just stop repeating the Kobe thing until you can tell how it would work given that Kobe would veto the deal if the Bulls gave up the Lakers price. I didn't see the Butler question. Rose has been broken for 4 years. How many more years do they get a pass on that? How many years of excuses does Paxson get that no other front office in any sport gets? I have yet to see you dispute the rest of what I laid out. 3 handpicked choices for coaches and all ended on bad terms. Hoiberg isn't off to a good start. Who outside of Butler has Paxson hit on in the past 5 years? Wanna give credit for Butler? Do you take away credit for Teague? How about Snell? What about Tyrus? James Johnson? Mirotic might not even be Hero Turkoglu which he compared to but was hyped up more. Where's the fault for the horrid training staff. People remember the spinal tap with Luol which is horrific, but they tend to forget how they misdiagnosed a break in the leg and basically called Luol out years before? These are basketball decisions that are ignored. Yes, one or two bad decisions shouldn't be held against you. Paxsons made more than just one or two.

The purpose of my long winded post was to be as objective as I can be. With that stated, I personally feel Paxsons time is expired as has been since 08. I do think he's good at changing a culture and taking a team from nothing. But then he falls in love too much with pieces and let's them expire. I feel there is a double standard when it comes to Paxson versus all other Chicago sports teams. The whole, well we don't have a LeBron argument is tired and a bunch of BS. Golden State didn't stop trying to build when LeBron was owning them in 2007. But we don't have a Stephen Curry! Neither did San Antonio. Yes you need great players to win. The Bulls simply don't do enough to acquire those type of players. They're very reactionary. Very slow at the wheel. Oh, he's available?? Let's try to go after him while another team has already had the jump. Bulls had a chance at prime Melo and declined. They had a shot at prime Kobe and failed. They lost out on their first four options in the 2010 fa class. Yes, Paxson was dealt a bad hand when Rose tore his acl. But when that happened, shouldn't Paxson tried to increase the talent exponentially to make sure he didn't have to carry the team? When Caron Butler, Jamal Crawford wanted to sign after Roses MVP season, and you trot out Richard Hamilton instead, you deserve blame. When you ignore the backup PG spot until the season is about to start every year, you deserve blame. After Rose tore his meniscus, you should've started to look for alternatives. You don't deal Korver for a bag of air. You don't hold onto Deng until he falls apart. You don't keep Ben Gordon until he just leaves. You don't hang onto Asik when you have Noah and you need a wing player like Courtney Lee. You call OKC and ask if he's available when you know OKC can't pay him and Ibaka. You don't hang into Taj Gibson when he can be replaced and a lesser rate. Lastly, when you have 13 years to win and you haven't even sniffed a Finals appearance, you get fired in every sport or on any other team. When you're core is the same as it was 5 years ago when it wasn't good enough and its on the wrong side of the hill, you don't keep your job. Lastly, when you bet on the exact same roster and fire your 2nd handpicked coach to hire someone else who is supposed to improve the offense, and he actually makes it worse, you don't get to keep your job. That's failure.

I can see Cleveland trading Mozgov and JR Smith for someone like Joe Johnson and/or Brook Lopez(both sides might need to put more in).

It's late, even on the West Coast, but I feel like having to reply to this thread. First thing I'll say is that I agree. GarPax has had 13 years to field a championship caliber team, only one year did they. And it actually happened on accident if you think about it. This is going to be a long winded post, so I summarized it in the first two sentences. Here's my defense for this thread(though I didn't make it): Lovie and Jerry Angelo had 8 years to turn the Bears into championship contenders. At the very least, they made it to the Super Bowl in one of those years and had a good shot at winning that game in a tougher sport. They also had made the playoffs before and Lovie's final year, he went 10-6 with the team taking a nosedive the year he left. Usually that indicates good coaching. Bears and their fans didn't believe so. White Sox won a WS in 2005, but we all want KW fired. Cubs have fired different guys since Paxson stepped in for the Bulls trying to get the job done. Fact is, the Chicago Fire FO has received more criticism and calls for firings than GarPax has. Stating the opposite is indefensible. Local media has all criticized the other teams in this town, but the Bulls have always gotten a free pass. Paxson had actually a good drafting record when he first started. He hit on Kirk, Gordon, Deng and Duhon was a good backup PG. 4 players with his first 4 tries, he hit on. His strategy on the trade market and acquiring assets was working. He dumped Jamal Crawford and Eddy Curry at the right time and for as good as a package as you can get when teams know you don't want those players anymore. Even with trading those guys, through his drafting, he turned the Bulls into a playoff team which this city starved for. They had a good coach in Skiles who demanded effort and the Baby Bulls were on the rise. He trades Tyson Chandler so he can free up space for Ben Wallace. They slightly overpaid at the time, but it was a solid move as he felt this would help the Bulls get to the next level (sidenote, I think this is where Paxson turned into a bad GM/VP). It actually works out despite squabbles with Big Ben who we knew loved to wear his fro out and bandanas in Detroit, and who Paxson suddenly tried to neuter with the help of Skiles. In the end, Bulls lay waste of the defending champs, make it to the 2nd round, and play Detroit tough(just weren't ready). We all thought they were on the way. The following year, Ben's displeasure with the Bulls grows louder because he feels like he's being treated like a kid and not like the defending champ he is. His game tanks as a result as he just doesn't give an eff anymore. Chandler is revived in NO with Chris Paul and the Bulls have nothing to show from the Chandler deal as the best piece they got(JR Smith) was waived in 10 minutes because Paxson needed guys who wouldn't rock the boat and he was the type to let a players past shape his thoughts(whether right or wrong). All of this is even worse as the Bulls start off slow and Skiles bickered with the FO over an extension who they played hardball on for no reason. Skiles is fired during the Christmas holiday with a bad taste in his mouth. Wallace is dealt to Cleveland for a bag of balls as he's grown to be a malcontent at this point and the Bulls miss the playoffs horribly. To make matters worse, Gar Forman's first pick Tyrus Thomas doesn't develop as fast as they hoped while LaMarcus Aldridge is showing flashes of brilliance in Portland, but not enough to be the main storyline. Joakim Noah doesn't look like much either and ends up fighting with the coaching staff alot. Bulls luck into Derrick Rose as they had a less than 2% chance of winning the draft lottery. They win the #1 pick and draft him. Vinny Del Negro is hired as coach, though he had no previous coaching experience. This was Paxson's choice. The Bulls end up creeping into the playoffs and give us the greatest basketball playoff series ever. Rose makes rookie history in his first playoff game and the Bulls are excited about their past and current core meshing together. The team's leading scorer is not given a new deal as the front office preferred to not waste the money on him(here's where I started seeing Paxson's flaws as he let his leading scorer and his best SG since Jordan leave with no compensation and no plans to replace him while keeping Luol Deng who didn't fit under VDN). The team highlight, Paxson's last good trade, was actually an accident as well. Andres Nocioni who hadn't lived up to his contract, Michael Ruffin, Drew Gooden and Cedric Simmons are all traded as a cap dump for Brad Miller and John Salmons. Salmons played out of this world for the rest of the season, forming a great 1-2-3 punch with Rose and Gordon. Miller became a good mentor for Joakim Noah. Salmons is kept, but quickly discovered as a guy who just had a great half to a season and nothing more. Bulls get trounced by LeBron's Cavs. Bulls drafted Taj Gibson and James Johnson before the season. Johnson was another Forman pick. It is found out by Adrian Woj, that the Paxson got into a physical altercation with VDN over the handling of Joakim Noah's minutes when coming back from injury. Noah was to be on a minute's restriction, but played more minutes in a tight game in which VDN asked Noah if he would be willing to go in and Noah answered yes. Bulls hire Tom Thibodeau. He brings along Ron Adams who previously clashed with Joakim Noah, but who grows a strong bond with budding star, Derrick Rose. Bulls miss out on Joe Johnson, LeBron James, Chris Bosh, and Dwayne Wade. They sign JJ Redick to an offer sheet which is quickly matched by Orlando. They move onto Plan C and sign Carlos Boozer, Ronnie Brewer, Kyle Korver and CJ Watson. They drafted Kevin Saraphin who is dealt with an aging Kirk Hinrich to WAS for cap space. With Thibs' system of effort everyday and freedom on offense while also making Luol Deng an integral part of the team, the Bulls shock the world and have a winning record against the Heatles. They lead the Eastern Conference in wins despite having Boozer and Noah miss large chunks of the season and Keith Bogans on their roster. Omer Asik shows he's a viable C in Thibs' rotation along with aging Kurt Thomas. Paxson's pickups worked out and they have the MVP. Bulls are bounced in the ECF in a close every game, but not close series (miami heat). Denver wants to deal Carmelo Anthony after he requests trade, but Bulls refuse to deal Joakim Noah in any deal. Melo eventually goes to NY. Bulls enter the 2010-2011 season as a true contender. They draft Jimmy Butler who is a relative unknown out of Marquette. They decide an aging and agitated Richard Hamilton is the answer at SG over options such as OJ Mayo, Courtney Lee, all-star level Caron Butler, and Jamal Crawford to name a few. Bulls start lockout shortened season where they left off, and that's winning. Nagging injuries get to the team's star in Derrick rose, but he returns for the playoffs and tears his ACL in Game 1. Bulls choke against the 8th seed and lose. Bulls draft Marquis Teague over the wishes of Tom Thibs and Ron Adams to draft Draymond Green. Bulls breakup the bench mob and deal Korver for a TPE they never used. This after letting go of Ronnie Brewer and CJ Watson. They sign Nate Robinson as roster filler, eventually cut ties with disgruntled Richard Hamilton, and sign Kirk Hinrich over OJ Mayo though Hinrich's best years being clearly behind him and the Bulls needing shooting. With all the injuries, Butler develops under Tom T's demand for effort. Bulls win an exciting series over the Nets with MVP candidate Joakim Noah and Nate Robinson leading the way and take a game from eventual champion Miami Heat despite being outnumbered. Bulls do not extend Ron Adams after him and Thibs struggle in a power play with Gar Forman. Thibs is upset with this, but still has backing of JR and VP John Paxson. Thibs also takes a year to sign extension deal. Bulls drafted Tony Snell who just isn't an NBA rotation player. Rumors come out about infighting by the FO with Thibs. Derrick Rose comes back after a year and a half absence and tries to play super fast. He tears his meniscus in about 10 games. Season is lost. Bulls make no deadline deals to obtain anyone which came after an offseason in which they let go of fan favorite, Nate Robinson. DJ Augustin does an admirable job off of the scrapheap. Bulls miss scoring for the 3rd year in a row and Paxson does nothing. Despite Rose missing most of the season again, Bulls continue to count on him being a championship level player. They draft Doug McDermott after trading Jusef Nurkic and Gary Harris and a 2nd rounder. Bulls try to woo Carmelo Anthony, but he decides to stay in NY over the Bulls. Pau Gasol signs with the Bulls citing Tom Thibodeau as the main reason along with Joakim Noah recruiting him. Front office feels the Bulls have enough to compete again. Bulls sign Aaron Brooks as a backup PG and continue to hope Rose becomes an MVP again. They have their best chance since 2010 with Rose healthy enough for the playoffs and Cleveland missing 1 part of their big 3. Bulls are up 2-1 after a Rose buzzer beater in Game 3. Bulls are about to go up 3-1, but LeBron hits a shot which changes complexion of series. Constant in-fighting between the coach and FO comes to a head. Players are sick of it, Bulls fire Thibs and hire Hoiberg. Bulls make no moves, other than drafting at their pick to draft Bobby Portis. This shows a sign of GarPax believing they had enough and Thibs being the scapegoat. Bulls begin 2015-16 no different than the previous year and in some ways worse under new coach and handpicked chosen boy, Fred Hoiberg. Butler, the team's new start, voices his displeasure with the head coach. Offense, which was supposed to be improved turns way worse, defense gets slightly better. Inefficiencies in Paxson's regime finally start to be talked about - lack of consolidating talent, holding onto assets too long, playing favorites with players, not making deadline deals, not being able to close a deal with a top player in FA, and never being able to acquire legit 2nd options on offense either via trade or FA. Bulls only good pick being Jimmy Butler who developed heavily under Thibs with McDermott and Mirotic showing they can be serviceable NBA players. Bulls have a logjam in the front court with Noah, Gasol, Mirotic, Gibson and Portis and still need help at the wing. Paxson refuses to deal any of his frontcourt players and Noah gets hurt while also being hurt about losing starting job. Portis shows signs of being as good if not better than Gibson, but he is not dealt for help either. Noah doesn't fit in Hoiberg's offense. Rose can't run Hoiberg's offense(or run at all at times). Rose is still injury prone after 5 years of showing he can't be depended on. GarPax is surprised and so are fans. Media and fans say, "you want us to try? how about when LeBron and Steph Curry retire". This post is very long, but I figured to give you insight on the good and bad of Paxson. In the end, his stubborness is what has costed the team and he's been a mid tier at best, if not lower tier(only held up by drafting which has gotten worse over the past 5 years) VP/GM. Backup PG is a revolving hole of Hinrich's corpse, some ETwan/DaQuan Cook/JamesOn Curry type of player and Aaron Brooks or CJ Watson. Bulls waited too long to deal Noah(should've been dealt at peak value after MVP type season), Deng and let go of Korver, Asik, and Gordon for nothing. Bulls under him (after 2007 season when they beat the heat in the playoffs) became very reactionary and they're pretty much asleep at the wheel until a coach does what he thinks is right or when it's turn to draft.