nitetrain8601

QUOTE (ChiSoxFanMike @ Dec 6, 2015 -> 04:14 PM) Again, injuries are a risk with any MLB pitcher, not just Sale. You're grasping at straws if that's the only reason why you think he should be traded. It's far from the only reason. In fact, it's towards the bottom of reasons. I've stated my reasons all over this thread. The reason why I bring it up is because everyone believes Sale is a for sure thing through 2020. Every player is far from a sure thing.

QUOTE (Brian @ Dec 6, 2015 -> 12:11 PM) If they did that trade draft day, I'd be furious. For Porzingis, at the time, I probably would've been mad because I didn't think he would be any different than what Mirotic would be. With that stated, if they did that trade and were able to get Jhalil or Towns, I would've been all over it. The more and more Mirotic plays, the more he proves that the projections from people outside of the Bulls was right. His ceiling is Hedo Turkoglu. A nice player, but certainly not one to lose sleep over.

QUOTE (BlackSox13 @ Dec 6, 2015 -> 03:53 PM) This right here is all that needs to be said. A trade based around two established all stars ensures that both teams get what they are looking for. Any discrepancies in the values between the two players can easily be worked out with a minor leaguer or two so the trade had much less moving pieces and easier for both teams to pull the trigger. Ok, if you do that, does that help your team? All you did was add a stud 3B, but you lost a stud SP. You literally took one asset and shifted it to a different position. But you still have the same amount of holes on your team. That trade doesn't do the Sox favors. The purpose in trading for top prospects back as opposed to established studs is that you can get more of them back. So you fill 2 for 1, a net gain of at least 1. You trade Sale for Arrenado, you do a 1 for 1 deal. No net gain.

QUOTE (LDF @ Dec 6, 2015 -> 03:25 PM) i agree with what you are saying. but man i wish i had a link to that fo for this, and hope they can see the point that we as fans want to make. as i posted in another post. the sox have at this time 90 mil add another 10 for bonuses and arb. trade hard on the farm and somewhat thin out what may be a little cluster at the pitching and get rid some of the players that may not be needed in the team in the next 2 or 3 yrs. make a hard decision on 1 sp to be traded.... trade or nice pieces and extra bodies. take the salary payroll to 140.... with the understanding that 28 mill will come off at the season end due to expiring contracts. now here is the tricky point, in accounting, the yr of profit and lose is yr to yr, so at season end, that 28 mil can be worked in per IRS. 140-28 = 112 going into 2017 season. hopefully the team will have had a better season with the new players prospects being traded for and the sox very own prospects. after the 2017 season melky contract comes off the books giving the sox 97 mil. they the sox owner will be in a nice economic position again... main question, would leake be a nice pickup at 15 mil +/-?? Leake would be a bad pickup as he doesn't address the lack of defense or offense on this team.

QUOTE (SoxAce @ Dec 6, 2015 -> 09:32 AM) Agreed. If I'm trading Sale, I want ML ready talent or young guys with experience already. (Think Betts, Bryant etc) We don't know how guys like the Dodgers Seager for example will pan out, especially in our system. We were fortunate with Eaton at the time when we got him. Except guys like Seager have experience. If you get Pederson, he's another guy with experience. They are exactly what you think Betts and Bryant are (young guys with experience). And yes, they started a significant amount of games last year. Here's some food for thought for you guys who feel like you can't trade Sale except in a for sure deal - Sale dropped in the draft because of his delivery. He's spent time on the DL already. You can't guarantee that his arm won't snap off can you? You can't guarantee his success over the next 6 years. Hell, everyone thought Danks was a sure thing since he didn't throw too hard, had a pretty good delivery and looked durable. Let's look at a situation in which dealing an ace pitcher can help your franchise, even 10 years down the line. Mark Mulder for Haren, Calero, and Barton in 2004. That trade is still paying dividends for Oakland: *Haren (and Connor Robertson) was traded in 2007 for Brett Anderson, Chris Carter, Aaron Cunningham, Dana Eveland, Carlos Gonzalez, and Greg Smith. *Anderson was traded for Drew Pomeranz and Chris Jensen. *Pomeranz was just traded for Yonder alonso and Mark Rcyznzpnap Scrabble, who are on the 25 man roster. *Cunningham (and Scott Hairston) went to San Diego in 2010 for Kevin Kouzmanoff and Eric Sogard -- Sogard is still on the 25 man roster. *Carter (and Brad Peacock) were sent to Houston in 2013 for Fernando Rodriguez and Jed Lowrie, who is back on the roster now lol. Rodriguez pitched last year and is arby eligible and should bounce back and forth between Oakland and AAA in the bullpen. *CarGo and Smith were traded (with Huston Street) to Colorado for Matt Holliday in 2008. *Holliday was traded in 2009 for Clayton Mortensen, Shane Peterson, and Brett Wallace. *Wallace was traded for Michael Taylor, who was traded for Jake Sanchez. Sanchez is still in the A's minor league system. So right now in 2015 the A's can trace back 6 players currently with the team back to the Mark Mulder trade 11 years ago.

I saw the replay, and yes, UNC did get royally screwed over. No one offsides, they were down by 8, but would've had all 3 timeouts left at the time.

QUOTE (OmarComing25 @ Dec 5, 2015 -> 07:04 PM) Sale's value right now >>>>> Santana's value in 2008, I don't know why you keep thinking the packages should be similar. Three extra years means two extra great prospects compared to Santana, at a minimum. Santana's value was higher than Sale's. The difference is going to be contracts. The argument is that his contract is worth at least a 3rd top 10 prospect in baseball. I'm arguing it's really not. Santana was already the sure fire best pitcher in baseball and best of his generation at the time. It's the equivalent of Clayton Kershaw being traded by the Dodgers right now. There's nothing that says his contract is worth 2 extra great prospects. That's ludicrous.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Dec 5, 2015 -> 06:36 PM) You are funny. But the Twins did get Carlos Gomez, Phil Humber and some filler for him. Sure makes me think the Sox need to trade Sale ASAP for a similar package since he probably isn't the greatest pitcher of his generation, although he would be pitching for about half the money Santana pitched for four seasons. Two prospects and filler. You guys are demanding at least three. And I didn't say its a necessity to trade Sale now. But if you don't plan on buying a bunch of players you should trade him for teams thirsty for SP if you can get 2 or 3 for sure starters back. If you plan on competing next year, be my guest and keep him. What I don't want is a situation which Seattle has with Felix Hernandez. Wasting his career away and years of competing away because you don't feel market value is not market value - to simply prove a point in other words.

QUOTE (Wanne @ Dec 5, 2015 -> 06:27 PM) Aaaaand not having a 19-3 Greinke in the rotation means nothing? That rotation (sans Kershaw) isn't all that great. Don't be shocked with what they'd give up for a pitcher like Sale...not to mention the contract that he has. To sit there and definitively say "ain't happening" really is condescending since you're not part of the Dodgers ownership group. Don't underestimate what SF moves would make them do either... You're asking a baseball team to give up the 3 of the top ten prospects in all of baseball who are as young and cost controlled for not the #1 pitcher in baseball. No one has been able to cite an example of when a team came even close to doing that when asked. They want to say he's under a bargain deal. So is Felix Hernandez, so is Jose Fernandez. I doubt Florida even asks for that type of haul.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Dec 5, 2015 -> 06:31 PM) None of that matters if he's suspended. But he hasn't been. None of it matters unless he's kicked from the league.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Dec 5, 2015 -> 06:27 PM) Repeating this. Puig right now should be viewed as worthless. Even with last year, look at his stats and his age and his health. He's far from worthless. He has down value, but he ain't worthless.

QUOTE (GreenSox @ Dec 5, 2015 -> 06:25 PM) I would do that in a heartbeat. 2 + Puig + Crawford. Apparently that's a severe underpayment by the Dodgers. You guys are also right, I shouldn't compare Santana with Sale because Santana was by far the best pitcher in baseball at the time of the trade and of his generation.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Dec 5, 2015 -> 05:36 PM) And the Dodgers better be ok with missing the playoffs this season if those guys need 1-2 years to adapt to the big leagues. The Dodgers aren't missing the playoffs. And Pederson was a huge part of that last year. Seager will be this year. And they are looking at Zobrist as well.

QUOTE (BlackSox13 @ Dec 5, 2015 -> 05:56 PM) Cubs are in the market for a closer. http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2015/12/cubs...op-closers.html Yep. Robertson for who though?

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Dec 5, 2015 -> 05:10 PM) Right. The fact is you are showing us why Chris Sale cannot be traded. We all are overvaluing the return because that is exactly what would have to happen for him to leave at this juncture. Pollock is pretty awesome. I would trad Q straight up for him myself. So instead of filling up two gaps with players who are cost controlled as well, are every day players, and top 10 prospects within the last year, you rather hold onto Sale?

QUOTE (BlackSox13 @ Dec 5, 2015 -> 04:02 PM) As a Sox fan, it would really suck being stuck watching Sale pitch his prime years on the South Side. Gawd how depressing that idea is. As a Sox fan, it would really suck being stuck watching Sale pitch his prime years on the South Side, striking out 10, giving up one run and losing. Don't put a man over the team.

QUOTE (Quinarvy @ Dec 5, 2015 -> 04:01 PM) Sale's contract is the big difference. Santana had a year left. Sale has four cost controlled years, two being options. Sale's contract is maybe worth another top 5 prospect. You guys aren't even asking for that. You guys are asking for Seager, Pederson, Urias at minimum. There's no precedent for that. Hell, Atlanta is only asking for Pollock for Miller.

QUOTE (Quinarvy @ Dec 5, 2015 -> 04:40 PM) If we can't get full value for his prime years because his value is too high...yes? That's better than building a viable team?

QUOTE (OmarComing25 @ Dec 5, 2015 -> 04:17 PM) IIRC Santana only had 1 year left on his contract when he was traded, and even then people thought the Mets final offer was underwhelming. The Yankees and Red Sox hypothetical deals were a lot better, the Red Sox reportedly offered two of Lester/Ellsbury/Bucholz + Crisp + Jed Lowrie + another pitcher. That would have been a huge haul, and IMO better than Urias/Pederson/Verdugo, and that was for one expensive year of Santana, not 4 cheap years of Sale. Red Sox flat out told Minny they weren't going to give up both Ellsbury and Lester in the same deal. The Yanks offered Melky, Phil Hughes and a lower level prospect. And at the time, Johan was seen as the sure-fire, no doubt about it, best pitcher in baseball. The Twins wanted two of the three (which might I add, is less than what you guys are demanding from the Dodgers) Ellsbury, Lester Bucholz. Boston countered with Lowrie (not a top 10 prospect in their system at the time), Ellz OR Lester, and Coco Crisp. On top they added a lower level pitcher, possibly Justin Masterson who wasn't a top 10 prospect in their system at the time either. So Red Sox: Ellsbury or Lester Lowrie (not a top 10 prospect in their system at the time) Crisp (MLB player) possibly Justin Masterson (not a top 10 prospect) http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/prosp...007/262814.html Yankees: Phil Hughes (#1 Yankees Prospect) Melky Cabrera(MLB Player) third prospect who they refused to to be one of their top ones (Kennedy, Horne or Austin Jackson) http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/prosp...007/262804.html http://espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3138088 So despite what you may or may not feel. There is no precedent for asking for the crazy packages you guys are asking for.

QUOTE (rowand's rowdies @ Dec 5, 2015 -> 04:02 PM) Greinke has some close friends that own Sportiqe, a sports & music t-shirt company out of Tempe, AZ. They actually have some of the most comfortable shirts you will ever wear. http://sportiqe.com/ Probably a part of the reason, along with the low pressure of the market & huge amount of $$$ why he chose AZ. Don't underestimate the fact that half his games now he will know that the weather will be nice, roof open or closed. Something that might add to his anxiety in rainy areas like So Cal or SF. They also have some great young hitters, some young pitching talent, and tons to spend. Don't forget the DBacks just signed a $1 Billion Dollar TV Contract with Fox Sports in the last 2 years. SoCal is rainy? You sure about that?

QUOTE (ChiSox59 @ Dec 5, 2015 -> 04:09 PM) Yeah, I agree. That's why he won't be traded. So waste prime years huh? Because the longer you wait, the asking price goes down.

QUOTE (ChiSox59 @ Dec 5, 2015 -> 04:04 PM) There is no precedence. That's why he probably won't be traded for a few years, if at all. Plus, you can't just compare Sale to past elite pitchers in a vacuum. His contract is an enormous differentiator that adds oodles of value. But you can. There's no justifying what you guys are asking for. Yes, I want the Dodgers top 5 prospects as well, 3 of which are MLB ready. But that ain't happening.

QUOTE (OmarComing25 @ Dec 5, 2015 -> 04:00 PM) Soler + Contreras for Q? Pass. Soler was replacement level this year even with an unsustainably high BABIP and even modest improvement from him means only 1ish WAR. Contreras is nice but when he's the biggest piece in a 2-person deal that's a problem. Why would Urias not fill a need? If we trade Sale then pitching suddenly becomes a huge need. Because the #1 thing this team can develop is pitching. We still have pitching in the wings. Like I've asked the others, show me where commanding a team's last 3 #1 prospects that haven't busted become precedence for an ace pitcher? Seager + Verdugo/Contreras fill a need. You can probably get a lower A prospect as well. They had this pitcher pitching in the fall league that looked like he can be something if you're so hell-bent on pitching. I'll take the everyday players. What's to stop the Dodgers from laughing at that and then dealing maybe one of those prospects for S. Miller from Atlanta. Yes, I want all of the Dodgers prospects, but that's never going to happen.

QUOTE (ChiSox59 @ Dec 5, 2015 -> 03:52 PM) Seager and Pedrson/Verdugo doesn't even come close to sniffing Sale. Not even close. Again, I'll wait for someone to show me where the precedence is three top 10 prospects in all of baseball. I don't think even Johann Santana commanded that much.

QUOTE (LDF @ Dec 5, 2015 -> 03:45 PM) going with the numbers you mention, i too am looking for quantity and i hate that i needed to look at this way. but those holes are glaring. i will not go for ped nor seag nor urias, instead i am looking for a little more in prospects. i like hernandez + peraza move to ss + barnes there is some question as of late on whether he can catch at the mlb level + holmes + farmer + Heredia + comp pick I wouldn't go for Urias as he doesn't fill a need. But Seager can play SS, 3B or 2B. Pederson or Verdugo fill an OF spot. I don't view k*** as being any better than just a glue guy. Barnes would be a nice get too IMO. I would want to follow up a Sale trade with a Q trade to Boston or the Cubs. From the Red Sox I would want Swihart and Devers. From the Cubs I would want Soler + Contreras.