nitetrain8601

QUOTE(SoxFan1 @ Dec 15, 2005 -> 04:20 PM) And you'd be pretty wrong. And do you know where I can find how many at bats he's had in the 9 hole and 8 hole?

QUOTE(ZoomSlowik @ Dec 15, 2005 -> 04:19 PM) That's fine and dandy, but Blalock wouldn't hit in the 9 hole. In his career he's provided a lot more offensive firepower than Crede, meaning he's generally held in higher esteem, meaning he's probably going to hit higher in the order. More importantly, you spot in the order doesn't really affect your power numbers or batting average that much like it does for runs and RBI. If a guy is a .250 hitter, he isn't suddenly going to hit .300 if you put him in the #3 spot, or hit 10 more homers just because he hits higher in the order. It still takes a certain amount of ability to do those things, something that Joe hasn't shown up to this point. He might finally have his breakout year and hit .280 with 30 homers, but it won't matter whether he's hitting 5th or 7th. The only possible way that the lineup could in any way improve his power or average is if he's hitting ahead of a more dangerous bat like Thome or Konerko and he gets more pitches to hit. That won't happen with either player. But I'm saying, you put Crede in the 3-4-5 hole like Blalock is and you have the same numbers as Blalock. There is not much of a difference at all. And I'm not say Crede would be a .300 hitter, but I'm saying around .270-.280. And protection does affect a hitter.

QUOTE(qwerty @ Dec 15, 2005 -> 04:15 PM) The majority of crede's at-bats were in the eight hole, not nine. Protection is overated... if you are a good hitter you will hit no matter what. Btw, crede's defense was only worse than chavez's this year ( i do not care what the plain defensive statistics show). I'm pretty sure Crede was the 9 hole hitter until the last month or so of the season.

QUOTE(AnthraxFan93 @ Dec 15, 2005 -> 04:15 PM) Also figure that Blalock is going going to have to face 1 good SP staff in Minny, Cleveland is okay, but then he gets to feast on the Royals and Tigers... THe WEst has great staffs in every team execpt the Rangers..And I can't see him hitting against his own pitchers. Cleveland has a pretty good staff. The Tigers have 2 good pitchers. Royals have like 1. Seattle doesn't have a great staff. Oakland does, but Harden was injured for more than half the year. The Angels had Colon and that's it.

QUOTE(RockRaines @ Dec 15, 2005 -> 04:13 PM) You do know there is a reason he doesnt hit in the heart of the order. Because he is not that good, and not that consistent of a hitter. You cant just say, well, Royce Clayton may hit 200 at the bottom of the order, but if you put him at the 3rd spot he will hit 285. its just not that way. And Blalock is not that good or consistant of a hitter. You could have Kevin Mench in Blalock's spot in the order and you wouldn't miss a beat if you were Texas. Blalock could hit at home and he could hit in the 1st half of a season, that's it.

QUOTE(RockRaines @ Dec 15, 2005 -> 04:09 PM) Wow, I guess those 37 at bats is a pretty good split. Usually we determine a players worth by about 10 games. Come on dude. Yes, every team gets an all-star, whats your point? Are you saying the he didnt deserve it? Or he was the only player on the team who went? Please say that, please/ Dude, I showed you numbers, I showed you expert rankings, I showed you defensive rankings, I showed you opinions. You still wont budge. Anybody out there who watched and knows baseball, knows that Crede is not as good a player as Blalock. Even if his home splits are better, so what? That is still part of who he is as a player. Crede sucks at home, does that mean we should just take into account that he is only the player that he is at home? You cant ignore certain parts of a person's game and compare them, our pitchers all have different home/away splits, does that mean that they arent as good as a player? No. Crede is not as good as Blalock, offensively OR defensively. And he is sure as hell more healthy and better at his age than Crede was. He has a higher ceiling and has already shown his ability. Dude, you don't have to say dude, so much. Okay dude? I'm not a surfer trying to hang 10. I showed you the numbers and you chose to ignore them. Again, I'm not saying Crede is a much better player than Blalock, I would rate them in the same bracket of 3B. I see no point in trading a 3B for another one when it's not an upgrade. If you even leave them in the same spots in the order, what you get from Crede on the road is equal to what you would get from Blalock at home assuming he would be able to hit at our home. You're just trading away more HR's and RBI's in one park for RBI's & HR's on the road.

QUOTE(ZoomSlowik @ Dec 15, 2005 -> 04:06 PM) The bottom line is that we can reasonably expect Blalock to hit at least .260 with 25 homers, 80 RBI, and very good defense hitting 5th or 6th in our lineup. That's not really the case with Joe. He might break out this year, but who knows what's going to happen with him, especially since his back seems to be a bigger issue than most of us would have thought. Moving from Texas to the Cell doesn't mean that Blalock is going to hit .240. The Cell is still a fairly good hitters park, we just can't expect him to hit over .300 like he does in Texas. It's also possible that getting away from Safeco, Network Associates, and Edison Field helps him out. None of those parks are exactly hitter friendly, and about a quarter of his road games are at those parks. .252AVG, 22HR's, 62RBI's. That's out of the 9 slot with no protection and not really a spot in which you could produce mass RBI's. In the 3-4-5 role like Blalock, I think he would get at least 90 RBI's with 28 HR's and a .270avg with protection. Put Blalock in the 9 hole with no protection, he probably gets around the same or less than Crede.

QUOTE(Dick Allen @ Dec 15, 2005 -> 04:03 PM) nitetrain, I noticed in the Frank Thomas thread you wrote you never want him to leave. Ever notice his horrific splits the last 4 or 5 seasons between home and away? There's nothing to say Blalock wouldn't flourish at USCF, and as to his numbers dying in the second half, maybe not playing in the 100 degree heat for half his schedule will keep him stronger. Because he was a White Sox for life. I never said I wanted him starting either, did I? I would've preferred for him to retire a Sox.

QUOTE(RockRaines @ Dec 15, 2005 -> 04:02 PM) hahahahahahaaha!!!!!!!!!!!! So, let me get this straight. The Bullpen of the sox, which was 2nd in the MLB in saves, and who were one of the best in baseball all year, now is not as good as Toronto's who ranked 28th in saves. Or we could go stat by stat whereas the sox had a better ERA, wins, losses, WHIP, K/BB, K/9, BAA, and OPS. Now defensively the teams had the same FPCT, the sox had less errors, more dp's and more put outs. But the jays are better, right Of course on offense you are ignoring the 65 more hr's we hit and the 20 point SLG advantage as well. Obviously, you didn't read correctly when I said this year's Toronto team vs the same White Sox team from last year carried over. Man you're a dumbass.

QUOTE(RockRaines @ Dec 15, 2005 -> 03:52 PM) Dude, how can you say he doesn hit at the cell. He had like 12 at bats. Come on master of all splits. Blalock is a 2 time all star at age 25. His offensive numbers are superior. He led the Al 3B defensively. He is a better player, give it up. His numbers are better, his contract will be better, his health is better. You dont know what you are talking about. You want to go straight numbers, fine, I showed them to you , Crede is an Avg offensive player, he ranks as the 19th 3B, Blalock ranks 6th. Seriously, just log off for a bit. I suggest you relook at the number of at bats. It's not even close to 12 at bats. 37 at bats since 2003 to be exact. You do realize that at least 1 player from each team makes the All-Star team right? Even the Kansas City Royals get a All-Star rep. He's not the better player unless you somehow find a way to bring the Texas air and Ameriquest Field to Chicago. I could care less about the contract since Crede's isn't up for another 2 years and we have Fields in the minors. Yeah, but "you don't know what you're talking about" is a sure strong argument Rock. And I showed you the reason why Blalock is a better offensive player earlier in the thread and I told you once again why he has better offensive numbers. I don't think I'm the one who should be logging off for a bit.

I think Brandon Wood is an untouchable for the Angels.

QUOTE(RockRaines @ Dec 15, 2005 -> 03:19 PM) So, which aspect would you like to compare first? Or would you like to compare just overall team aspects? If I were you, I would stick to break out the parts of the team, because comparing the teams, I think going with the world champs would be a no-brainer. I DO believe our players and manager and GM have rings. Fine Starting Pitching White Sox > Blue Jays Bullpen Blue Jays > White Sox Hitting Blue Jays > White Sox Fielding Blue Jays > White Sox(sox are hot at the corners, but Blue Jays are hot up the middle which saves you more runs)

QUOTE(SoxFan101 @ Dec 15, 2005 -> 03:40 PM) No the problem is you are seriously underating Blalock and overating Crede like no other. Dont worry about the Rally Crede just let it go I think the stats prove my point more than enough. He sucks outside of Ameriquest Field and he sucks after the All-Star Game. I'm willing to give Crede a chance with his "new" stance than overpay for Blalock. I say overpay because Wilkerson doesn't interest me with all of our OF's and Danks and Diamond have yet to prove they'll be front end starters in AA, much less the majors.

QUOTE(Al Lopez's Ghost @ Dec 15, 2005 -> 03:02 PM) Yeah, that wouldn't cause any dissension at all. Ozzie will fook him up.

QUOTE(RockRaines @ Dec 15, 2005 -> 03:30 PM) It would be more like Crede and someone else for Blalock. Crede is not the player Blalock is dude. You are overvaluing your man crush by ALOT. The problem is you're seriously overrating Blalock. There's a reason why Texas wasn't as good of a road team as they were at home. Because none of their players could mash on the road minus Mark.

QUOTE(RockRaines @ Dec 15, 2005 -> 03:22 PM) Wow, comparing a player that is retired with a 25 year old who already has made 2 all star teams. You are digging yourself a deep hole today arent you? Would I take Alomar in his mid 20's over Gooch? f*** yeah. Project to be an upgrade? Ummm he already is, defensively and offensively. Sorry man, comparing the two is pretty ignorant. Last time I checked we play half our games at home as well. Last time I checked, our park was one of the most hitter friendly in the MLB. Last time anyone with a brain checked, Blalock was better than Crede. Blalock is younger, cheaper, better, and not injured. HE IS BETTER. I showed you what Blalock hit in the Cell. He only had 1 good year. Even when you average that in, he's in the mid-.200's avg. He sucks in the 2nd half. Crede helped carry us in the 2nd half, Blalock wouldn't have. Crede road > Blalock road Blalock Home > Crede Home Crede 2nd Half > Blalock 2nd half.

QUOTE(southsideirish71 @ Dec 15, 2005 -> 03:16 PM) The only problem Nite is that you have only a few oober guys out there that you believe are better than Crede. Chavez and thats pretty much about it. If we could get Hank and reaching for a pie in the sky like Danks for that package you do it. I would trade Crede for a package of Blalock and someone else, but I'm not giving up Garland in that deal. That's overpayment for Blalock. Wilkerson doesn't interest me enough over Anderson either. I'd take Chavez, Figgins, Wright, Ensberg and Glaus if he could stay healthy for a year. That's just off the top of my head.

QUOTE(RockRaines @ Dec 15, 2005 -> 03:05 PM) Not an upgrade huh? How many times has Crede been an All-star? Has he ever surpassed 100 RBI's? Has he even broken 80? Career Numbers: Blalock .274 .338 .471 .809 Crede .255 .303 .454 .742 thats just offense How about we throw in some comparable players based on Baseball-reference.com Crede: 1.Doug DeCinces 2. Max Alvis 3. Butch Hobson Blalock 1.Scott Rolen 2. Eric Chavez 3. Ken Keltner Blalock is only 25 years old too!!! With a better contract, better agent, better future. Come on. 1)I already told you which guy who has been in a position to score that many RBI's and who has the protection. I suggest rereading that Rock. 2)All-Star appearances mean nothing. Robbie Alomar made the all-star game several times, let's go get him again since Iguchi hasn't...right. 3)You have to look at splits when looking at Blalock. There's a reason why Florida didn't end up dealing Beckett to Texas. One of the reasons is that Blalock stinks outside of Ameriquest Field and he stinks in the 2nd half. If you don't want to accept those reasons, then fine by me. But Blalock doesn't project to be an upgrade over Crede. I could care less how old each one is right now because they're both around the same age and neither is in their 30's. Talk about age when it's the difference between a 19 year old and a 25 year old. Or a 31 year old and a 25 year old.

QUOTE(RockRaines @ Dec 15, 2005 -> 02:45 PM) Would you like to compare pitching rotations, bullpens, defense or offense first to prove yourself wrong? You pick. I'd like to compare teams.

QUOTE(Rex Kickass @ Dec 15, 2005 -> 12:23 PM) I guess this is my point. The Marlins shouldn't do the same old thing as every other team because they aren't the same old team. A new team needs to do things differently or more specially based on market conditions. I don't think that Loria seems to understand that as an owner. As a result, they have teams that do the same old thing which doesn't work because he's in a market with different needs. They fail. How many owners, then, will it take to fail for you to understand that it's the fans and not the owner?

QUOTE(RockRaines @ Dec 15, 2005 -> 02:50 PM) hahahaha. Hmm where should I start. Ride out Crede and wait for a player who struggles in the minors at the position or trade Crede whilee we still have him for somone we would have longer and cheaper? Blalock is a better player-offensively, and this year, defensively, serious, stop with that. Its like trading in a 2 year leased lexus for a different one, for longer lease period, for less money, and less chance of maintenance. If you're willing to give up on Field already, then I'm glad you're not a GM. It's been proven that Blalock is nothing outside of Ameriquest and is a horrible 2nd half player. I'm willing to ride out Crede for a year especially since it took Beltre that long as well to break out. Again, I'm not against trading Crede for an upgrade, but Blalock is not an upgrade.

QUOTE(Felix @ Dec 15, 2005 -> 02:33 PM) The thing with Blalock is that at home, his numbers are good. On the road, his numbers are worse than Scott Podsednik. Most players have a downgrade in their stats when away from home, but its not as severe as Blalocks. He hits with a .150 OPS lower (I just pulled that number out of my ass, so sorry if its not completely accurate) when on the road than at home, and when your home ballpark is the biggest hitters park in the league, teams should definitely worry about what he'll be like when not hitting there 81 games a year, and from all signs, it doesn't look good. Exacto.

QUOTE(JimH @ Dec 15, 2005 -> 02:30 PM) OK, I deleted all the stats and the Decree of Silencio, and just quoted the last part. Crede has been a streaky hitter his whole career, he has a bad back, that will likely not help him in his consistency battle. Just saying. You are speculating about contract situations re: Boras with absolutely no basis in history, fact, or logic. Crede is their only Boras client, they don't draft them or trade for them unless it's a stop gap guy they intend to let go anyway. They drafted Josh Fields for a reason, it gives them a backup plan. They traded for Mackowiak for a reason, a backup plan. So you can throw the comparison stats out the window, there is much more to the equation than stats in this case. Think about it. Yeah and since Crede isn't a FA after this upcoming year, it would just make more sense to ride out Crede and if they are not satisfied with his production or don't want to pay him, Fields should be ready in time and they would get picks for Crede. I'm all for upgrading at 3B. Hank Blalock is not an upgrade, however. It's like trading in your black Lexus for a Silver one. All the same parts, just a different color. Also, Crede got streaky when he first changed his batting stance. Now he's just using the one he had when he first came up and so far it's worked big time.

QUOTE(heirdog @ Dec 15, 2005 -> 02:25 PM) What are Blalock's splits at the cell? That would be more telling than "home" since if he were traded, "home" would be the cell. 2003: G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB K SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS U.S. Cellular Field 4 14 2 3 0 0 2 3 0 1 0 0 .214 .214 .643 .857 2004: G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB K SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS U.S. Cellular Field 3 11 0 2 1 0 0 0 2 3 0 0 .182 .308 .273 .580 2005: G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB K SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS U.S. Cellular Field 3 12 1 5 1 0 0 1 1 5 0 0 .417 .462 .500 .962 So far, he's had one really good year at the Cell and two piss poor ones.

QUOTE(FGarcia34 @ Dec 15, 2005 -> 02:22 PM) Home AVG's: Blalock - .297 Crede - .235 Away AVG's: Blalock - .231 Crede - .269 Personally, I'd rather have a hitter hit better at the Cell than on the road. I would too until I see that the player is just a first-half player. Look, I have no problem trading Crede in a package anywhere, but it better be for someone better than Hank Blalock.