nitetrain8601

QUOTE(SoxFan101 @ Dec 14, 2005 -> 04:23 PM) that hasnt stopped him b4? I know that Olivo was on that list and I would of been surprised if Chris Young was too. If you ask Steff, they knew they were going to deal him before the season started.

QUOTE(SoxFan1 @ Dec 14, 2005 -> 04:49 PM) Did Jenks not come out of the Sox minor league system? For half a year. I don't consider being here for half of a year meaning we developed him. Garland yes, simply because he spent most of his time in the Sox minor leagues instead of the Cubs. Buehrle yes. Crede yes. Cotts is debateable because he did come from the A's system.

QUOTE(RockRaines @ Dec 14, 2005 -> 04:46 PM) Yeah, but get your mind off s***ty teams for a second. Think about our rotation and how we could benefit from using the 6 man to begin the year. 1.WBC arms may be tired 2.More chance for preparation between starts 3. More rest early on 4. Rested starters going into dog days of summer after break. 5. Could then trade a starter at deadline for bat etc Well most definately, I think we should give it a shot. I'm just saying in terms of it becoming a new 4-6 defense in which alot of teams start using it, I don't see it.

QUOTE(SoxFan1 @ Dec 14, 2005 -> 04:43 PM) I can agree with all of that. For the most part, we're on the same page. But the payroll is the difference. Obviously, the White Sox can't afford to trade all their prospects because they don't have the salary. But if they keep winning, that would no longer be an issue. Cotts, Jenks, Buehrle, Garland, McCarthy, Anderson, and Crede were all brought up by the Sox in some way. The Yankee's have Cano and that's it I believe. They also have the advtange in payroll which pretty much nullifies their need for a minor league system. Yes, it is not imperative to a team to have great prospects but it sure doesn't hurt. There's that one guy named Derek Jeter on their team. Oh yeah, that All-Star catcher. And the White Sox did not develop Jenks. That was the Angels.

QUOTE(RockRaines @ Dec 14, 2005 -> 04:38 PM) Thats what im saying, we start kicking ass with each arm getting an additional day to prepare, then EVERYONE tries to get a 6 man rotation. Im just trying to say, whos to say we cant have 6 starters? Maybe its more efficient that way? Everyone is saying, THEY HAVE TO TRADE ONE OF THEIR SP's NOW...Says who? Lets f em all and go with a deadly 6 man rotation, then cut it down at the all star break. Well I don't mind that at all, but most teams won't go for 6 since it's so hard to find 4 really good pitchers. Personally I also think it works if you have a dominant rotation like the White Sox. If you're the Pittsburgh Pirates, you're asking for more losses. Also, as a sidenote, 20 game winners will be fewer and far between.

QUOTE(Beastly @ Dec 14, 2005 -> 04:38 PM) Can someone recap some of this thread? I want to know opinions without spending and hour reading all of this. I'd say it's 65-35 in terms of liking/not liking the deal. Most people think Vazquez can be fixed with Coop. People are speculating whether dealing Garland to make space is good or not(most people want BMac to start because he thinks he's ready), while there's a minority that don't think/care if McCarthy's ready. In other words, there's a debate of whether or not we should throw him in the pen or deal a starter so he could start. Latest debate is on whether we want to become the Yankees or not.

QUOTE(RockRaines @ Dec 14, 2005 -> 04:36 PM) I meant this year Well in that case, excellent.

QUOTE(RockRaines @ Dec 14, 2005 -> 04:31 PM) Yeah, but we have that, and maybe it will be the new thing, some sort of rotating rotation, like the 46 defense, it will revolutionize and dominate the sport.... Doubtful simply because good teams are struggling to find #4's. I wouldn't mind us having 6 starters though and I wouldn't mind going with a 6 man rotation. It will keep our guys way rested for a strong run in the playoffs.

QUOTE(RockRaines @ Dec 14, 2005 -> 04:33 PM) Yeah, but it will never happen, its just not in the cards. Our payroll is pretty much maxed out at this point. And im not worried about this anyway. Kenny and Ozzie wouldnt let that happen. Ozzie is the true leader of this team, and if anyone gets in his way, we will ship em to a crappy team in the NL central. The yankees dont do that. I agree with your 2nd point(Ozzie), but I don't think we're maxed out in terms of payroll. As long as we keep winning, I think our maxed out payroll would be at 110 million.

QUOTE(SoxFan1 @ Dec 14, 2005 -> 04:26 PM) Think about, I know what you're saying and understand what you're coming from but personally, I would not want to mimic the Yankees. I would rather have a team that battled to the end and won a World Series old school style than have a team with no chemistry, a bunch of superstars, and a lot of big ego's. The White Sox won the World Series in 2005 with clutch hitting, great pitching, defense, and team chemistry. Nobody hated anybody else on the team. None of out players tackled any cameramen. None of our players b****ed and demanded a trade. Sure Marte was a headcase but did you see him jumping around in the bullpen after PK's grandslam? And yeah, Carl was a nut too, and while he was mad about getting out of the 3rd spot, he put up and shut up and contributed. The Yankees are not a "team" like the Sox are. They are a bunch of individuals. And getting back to the minor leagues, the Yankees' have a pretty-much non-existant one. Yet those Yankees who always have problems seem to keep making the playoffs. Those Yankees signify baseball in America. Mention New York Yankees anywhere outside of the U.S. and people will know who you're talking about. Mention Chicago White Sox and you might get Iguchi's family and some of South America knowing who you're talking about. Big name players dream of playing for the Yanks. 4 WS within the past 10 years, I'll take that anyday of the week. We won't aim to be the New York Yankees in name, but in terms of product. I want to be the Chicago White Sox aka the new Yankees.

QUOTE(GreatScott82 @ Dec 14, 2005 -> 04:12 PM) I think Crawford fits into the whole Ozzie ball theme times 10! However, TB will be asking for McCarthy not Garland or Contreras. Will KW give up the young phenom plus more for arguably the most versatile player in the AL? I think so!! I don't. I think McCarthy is on Kenny's 3 year list.

QUOTE(WHarris1 @ Dec 14, 2005 -> 04:09 PM) So basically we agree... Hell yeah.

QUOTE(WHarris1 @ Dec 14, 2005 -> 04:03 PM) What? He was better than that in 03. I'm saying in the long run, he'll be better than he ever was before. This upcoming year, he'll have a year like he had in Montreal.

QUOTE(jphat007 @ Dec 14, 2005 -> 03:57 PM) Coop doesn't think anything will go down, nor does 2 of Merkin's sources. They think what I think. Bmac in the bullpen., rest in the rotation. That's what I think now. If anyone gets dealt, it will be Garland though.

QUOTE(WHarris1 @ Dec 14, 2005 -> 03:25 PM) You can be succesful and give up gopher balls. Javy has had two years with significant homer problems. The last 2 years. Give him some time to settle down here, get used to AJP, work with Coop. It's gonna be Montreal Javy all over again, book it. That's where you're wrong. I'm confident he'll be better than before. Mid-3 ERA this year, contention for the AL Cy young the following year.

QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Dec 14, 2005 -> 03:46 PM) Jon Garland is an incredible pitcher. I don't want to dump him. Given infinite salary...He'd be the #2 guy I would resign to a contract extension, right behind MB. However, if Jon Garland cannot be kept, right now through a trade he can obtain us some incredibly valuable pieces - think about what Beane got for Hudson and Mulder. If we lose him as a Free Agent, we will get draft picks. However, right now, if we find a trading partner, he can get us potentially top-tier, All-star talent. Compared with losing Garland for draft picks, that is a much better option. If we could resign Garland at a fair price right now...do it. If he'll sign for what Burnett got, Hell I'd do that too. But I think he would expect more, given his performance last year, and I doubt he'd resign now without wanting to first test the FA market to see what he could get, a-la Konerko. We took a big risk in potentially losing Konerko for draft picks. We can't take that risk with every one of these guys. We have to get something for them. Bingo, I like Garland alot, but if you know you won't be able to keep him and you have a surplus of starting ipitching, then deal him for a fair deal.

QUOTE(heirdog @ Dec 14, 2005 -> 03:18 PM) I am pretty sure it was not the same as Arizona got Vasquez, Shawn Green and some prospects for RJ from Yankees and Dodgers in the 3-way. I don't think RJ and JV had the same value straight up. The Yankees wanted the same thing for Vazquez so they could flip those pieces for RJ.

QUOTE(RockRaines @ Dec 14, 2005 -> 11:20 AM) Hype? Im comparing players, and so was the guy in the BA chat, he is an educated baseball man, bringing hype into the discussion is pointless for arguments sake. Don't give me crap from some ESPN guy. So many people complain about ESPN except when it's to their benefit in an argument.

QUOTE(AddisonStSox @ Dec 14, 2005 -> 11:20 AM) Stop right there. McCarthy is developed. He is ready now. There is no such rush. Oh, so Don Cooper posts on this board? What if the White Sox trade Garland next year and McCarthy lays out a big fat egg? Are you still going to hold that stance?

I think so too. He seems like a guy who's loyal to his team and he was very grateful that the White Sox took a chance on him. He sees this as his home. I don't think he likes moving around much.

QUOTE(RockRaines @ Dec 14, 2005 -> 11:16 AM) Borchard wasnt half the player that Young is. Young's EBH and doubles numbers are just about the best we have ever seen. Not to mention his sb's and defense. Please, read up a little on the guy before you compare players. I'm pretty sure he's comparing the hype around these prospects. It seems as if most White Sox fans already have their prospects in the big leagues doing big things. So far, none have panned out in some time.

QUOTE(3E8 @ Dec 14, 2005 -> 11:13 AM) I'm not trying to prove putting a guy straight into the rotation doesn't mess him up. I'm trying to prove it's a path many young pitchers take on their way to success and I'm strongly against keeping McCarthy out of his future role for an entire season. But trackrecords have proven that if you stick him in the pen for a year, they won't suck when they do start. It doesn't hinder their development. Nothing too bad comes out of it. There's no point in rushing McCarthy out there to take on a full season if we don't need him to, which right now is the case. That's my point.

QUOTE(RockRaines @ Dec 14, 2005 -> 11:13 AM) Yes leader-club house with spanish speaking, and by example on the field. The guy is ALWAYS at the mound with the pitcher, ALWAYS taking control in the field, pop ups, dp's whatever, he is the best SS i have seen in awhile in the sox uniform. Its so closed minded to criticize a guys language skills, and not consider his actual leadership qualitities. Because, speaking with current players, the guy is a great presence. Thanks. And Tejada is that much better of a SS and would be better than Uribe in a Sox uniform and could speak with everyone in his clubhouse. Tejada is a guy who does everything Uribe does except better. The only thing Uribe has is a stronger arm, but Tejada's arm is no joke either. Tejada is a natural born leader through example and verbally. Uribe is only a leader through example.

QUOTE(3E8 @ Dec 14, 2005 -> 11:09 AM) Mike Mussina. Seriously, which team has been the best at developing young arms the past few years? Oakland. Look how many starts from the bullpen that Mulder, Zito, Harden, and Blanton have logged. Vicente Padilla.

QUOTE(RockRaines @ Dec 14, 2005 -> 11:08 AM) He wont ever be the hitter that Maggs was, but he is alot better of a player than Reed was. I would have rather traded Anderson instead of young, but its too late now. Im just worried about our bullpen at this point. We have a closer with a screw in his arm, one lefty, A guy with a messed up back, and Polite. Bullpen strength is neccessary for this team to win. Funny how Jenks goes to being a beast to all of a sudden being minimized to being a guy with a screw in his arm. I'm pretty damn sure you didn't want Marte here as I was a vast minority. I'll give you Hermy. Politte is good. When you have guys that could go deep(as Ozzie proved last year) into ballgames, that makes your bullpen better. We added a horse to the pitching staff. As it currently stands, we also have a long reliever finally. Anyone we bring in will almost surely have a better season then they did last year because of the defense we have and because of the fact that they'll get more than proper rest with the horses on the staff.