nitetrain8601

QUOTE(ZoomSlowik @ Dec 2, 2005 -> 03:30 PM) You're still missing the point. Many of these "mediocre starters" have been better pitchers over the last few years than Jon has. The guy has a 4.42 career ERA and was 5 games under .500 before this year. That can't be blamed on brutal pens or anemic offenses either like it can for some of these other guys. Jon was simply brutal before this season, plain and simple. Plus he doesn't have the electric stuff that many of the guys of his status that have been getting these contracts do, meaning it's harder to convince people that he's going to improve dramatically. Another major reason that these mediocre pitchers are getting these deals is teams that are trying to improve their pitching and there simply wasn't any quality pitching on the market. This makes what little crap is out there more valuable than it really is. Do you really think that the Yankees would have given Pavano 4/40 if any one of Jason Schmidt, Andy Pettitte, Barry Zito, or Mark Mulder were on the market? What do you think the effect will be when all of them are in the same FA class? There's going to be fewer massive contracts available to mid-level pitchers because the teams that have money to spend will go after these more proven guys. Plus by the same logic you're using to claim that Jon is a $10 mil pitcher, what does that mean guys with Cy Young awards are worth? $15 mil? $20 mil? There's only so much a team is going to pay for a starter. Maybe the supremely talented starters like Pedro and Bartolo Colon (forgot about him before, 3 starters over $10 mil. BFD.) can get significantly more than $10 mil. But that's about the ceiling for someone like Jon unless he has a season that is good enough to vault him into the category of the pitchers I previously mentioned. How good do you think your fan base is going to feel if they end up paying 5/60 for Jon Garland, a guy most of them have probably never heard of? That's why teams are going to get the best guy available first. There may be some big contracts handed out to starting pitchers, but Schmidt, Pettitte, Zito, and Mulder are almost certainly going to get them long before Jon does, making it less likely that someone with a ton of cash to throw around that is pitching desperate is going to splurge on him, unless he has a big time season. The money that the relievers are making is fairly irrelevant because it's an entirely different market. That's kind of like arguing that Jon is worth $12 mil because Paul Konerko got it. They fill entirely different roles on the team, and thus the amount of money people want to pay those players is very different. There just happened to be two very good left-handed closers available, something that is usually in short supply. A soon as one of them starts a game, I'll worry about how it affects Jon's value. As for their other relievers, overpaying for decent options is nothing new. The Yankees have drastically overpaid for guys like Steve Karsay and Flash Gordon (although that doesn't look that bad now) in the past, and guys like Armando Benitez and Troy Percival were getting some pretty big contracts too. Jon Garland was not brutal prior to this year. He was frustrating because he wasn't close to tapping his potential prior to this year, but he was an average pitcher at the very least. As someone stated earlier, he's also been a workhorse and good for 12 wins his whole career. Most of those starters have been as good as Jon if you discount Jon's last year. If you count that, he's better than them. And you're right. Starting Pitching is at a different market and if you think about it, it's more of a premium than hitting or relief pitching.

I was wondering if anyone knew the rosters of the teams in the WBC. If anyone does, please post them here.

If Ozzie is worried about Anderson's defense, then Anderson should feel safe about his job for next year.

QUOTE(ZoomSlowik @ Dec 2, 2005 -> 01:58 PM) And how many of them got $10 mil a year long term contracts, like have been thrown around on this topic? To the best of my knowledge two: Carl Pavano, coming off a Cy Young-type season, and Pedro Martinez, arguably the best pitcher of the last 8 years or so. As I said, unless Garland has a season similar to what Pavano did right before FA, I expect him to get contracts similar to the Jarret Wright's, Russ Ortiz's, and Odalis Perez's of the world, only probably more years since he's younger. That's probably where he fits in: among the decent but not stellar starters (or in the case of Wright, mediocre guys with potential). In other words, probably 5 years for $7-$9 mil a year, depending on what kind of year he has and how desperate some of the fringe contenders are. I expect Schmidt, Pettitte, Mulder, and Zito to get the largest contracts of the group because they are bigger names and most people think they're better and more proven. Seriously, what has Jon done that makes him so much better than the likes of Ortiz, Clement, and Perez? The only possible argument is he won a ring, and since he only pitched two games in the playoffs you could argue he wasn't that important to the run. He's really done nothing to prove that he's among the elite starters, so until he does he'll probably be paid like those other guys. Pitching is going at a premium. If Garland has a year like last year, I guarentee he gets 10 million a year. I'll eat my shoe on webcam and livecast it to you if he doesn't. Look at all the overpaid 12 game winners. Add 6 more wins to that for a 27 year old and he's going to get something along the lines of 4 years 44 million. Hell, look at closing this year. Guys are getting paid much more than Mussina. Look at Farnsworth and Eyre and there was much better relief pitching out there. The trend started with the Mets last year and it will continue. The Mets, Yankees, Red Sox, Cardinals and Cubs will be teams that will always need something and they'll always be the ones willing to overpay, thus setting the market value. The Yankees probably won't have Mussina, and I doubt they go with Small after this year. They are talking about moving Chacon to setup duty. They'll need 2 pitchers after this upcoming year and they also wanted to get younger. Garland would be the perfect fit for them. The Red Sox probably won't have Schilling and Wells past this upcoming season. Cardinals might lose Matt Morris and they're a team that likes to keep plugging in guys and will spend smartly. Cubs might go after Garland if Wood has another injury plagued season. The Indians might also need Garland to fill out their rotation after next year. You also have to take into account teams that come close and want to make pushes that they'll think will take over the top and teams who want to increase fanbase by spending. The trend shows a larger amount of big contracts being handed out.

You know what, it's not that bad of a plan. Duque is good when he's 100%. People were even calling him our stopper at the beginning of the season(see game against TB). Brandon McCarthy will get his starts so I'm not worried at all.

QUOTE(Antonio Osuna @ Dec 1, 2005 -> 07:34 PM) That'd be something. Anyone hitting a ball to left-center would wet themselves with joy. They'd more than make up for it with the runs they produce. Plus Manny has a pretty good arm in LF. I don't think it would be that bad at all. We would average at least 5 rounds a game, plus we still have our super strong pitching from last year.

QUOTE(SoxFan101 @ Dec 1, 2005 -> 11:47 PM) B4 being a smartass have you ever heard of Travis Hafner ..... and he cant play 1st at all complete butcher. Hafner plays 1B, Thomas DH's. I don't know what's so complicated about that? You don't think the Indians would put Broussard on the bench for Thomas? Cas if you don't, pass those rocks over here.

QUOTE(SoxFan101 @ Dec 1, 2005 -> 11:30 PM) I know the Twins GM had a conference or something and he said they have no interest at all in Frank Thomas..... also where would he play in Cleveland? Well there is this "new' position that was introduced called DH.

QUOTE(timotime @ Dec 1, 2005 -> 03:41 PM) while it's undeniable that castilla would be a good turf player because hes such a good slap hitter, i dont see the twinks doing any better than 3rd place in the al central. the tribe will be much better than them this upcoming year. and needless to say, the royals and tigers will duke it out for the toilet bowl award. I don't know about that. The Indians are probably going to lose Milwood. Wickman is 50-50 on returning. They already lost Howry. They're going to be weaker than they were last year. If the Twins make a move or two, they're right there again.

Haha, it was a funny attempt.

QUOTE(LosMediasBlancas @ Dec 1, 2005 -> 02:33 PM) I don't even like to see or hear the words Manny and White Sox together. Our team could probably hit 250HR's with that lineup next year. We'd drive in a crazy amount of runs. Who'd stop our team with that much hitting and that great of pitching? CF - Podsednik 2B - Iguchi LF - Ramirez DH - Thome 1B - Konerko RF - Dye C - AJ Pierzynski 3B - Crede SS - Uribe I could only dream.

QUOTE(witesoxfan @ Dec 1, 2005 -> 02:12 PM) And who's going to be in CF for the Phillies then? Bubba f***in' Crosby? Rowand will be a Phillie next year, period. No way Philadelphia moves a player they traded Jim Thome and a ton of cash for. I say to look out for Torii Hunter. Dunno why. Jason Michaels.

QUOTE(drowninginflame @ Dec 1, 2005 -> 02:18 PM) Konerko/Thome/Manny! wow, we'd be the new murderers row. It'll never happen, but hey I like Manny and his 40 HRs That's what I thought, but I remember KW already saying no to him earlier in the offseason.

Boston wants an ace pitcher in return from what I heard. That means Manny is staying in Boston. I can't see any team giving Boston what they want. I question Philly though because I would've done Manny for Abreu straight up.

QUOTE(kyyle23 @ Dec 1, 2005 -> 01:00 PM) Wouldnt this come down to ownership rights within the ballpark though? The game was played in St Louis, i dont really see how the Red Sox could claim any sort of ownership on the ball really. That's what I'm wondering.

QUOTE(IlliniKrush @ Dec 1, 2005 -> 12:55 PM) You guys know more about this than i do, but i think that if you did have a chicago board and put the hawks, bulls, bears, illini, depaul, uiuc...AND THE WNBA TEAM WE'RE GETTING...in there it would probably be an active board, but still easy enough to navigate through the teams and the threads. CHICAGO SKY BABY!!

They argue that the only reason why he caught that ball was because he was an employee of the Red Sox. Couldn't he argue that it is because he was a member of the Red Sox that he was a reason why they were in that position?

QUOTE(Chisoxfn @ Dec 1, 2005 -> 12:37 PM) Here's the question, would the speed of the dome help him (ie he would hit grounders so hard they get through) or would it hurt him because it would prevent him from beating out infield hits. I think a guy like Luis Castillo is a good guy to have playing in a dome. It'll probably even out though IMO. Good move for the Twins if they make it.

QUOTE(Steff @ Nov 30, 2005 -> 10:16 PM) What leaked testimony are you referring to? Are you mixing him and Giambi up..? Because Bonds came out clear as day and told he was using the cream that he was told was not a roid.. did he lie.. who knows. But what "leaked testimony" was about him...? Thank you. Again, I'm taking this guy anyday on my team.

QUOTE(GreatScott82 @ Dec 1, 2005 -> 11:46 AM) I know C. Lee, Jon G., Jose Contreras, J. Dye, El-duque, Iguchi, and Pierzynski will be on that list from the Sox. Unless KW locks them up before hand. I'm pretty sure there's an option for Dye and Iguchi.

Well that sucks. I think he saw how much PK made by just playing the year out. Someone would definately overpay for Garland if he repeats last year simply because of him playing at the Cell.

QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Nov 30, 2005 -> 06:54 PM) At the cost of your soul? I agree with Buehrle > Wood. Sure, he's not the best of personalities, but I don't care. I'd take this guy anytime on my team.

QUOTE(TheHammer @ Nov 30, 2005 -> 05:16 PM) Batting 2nd is hindering Iguchi from using his full abilities, that is obvious. Atleast have a strong argument if you are going to say the idea is only worthy of some flaming. Anyone should be able to move a runner over once in awhile. It is silly to stiffle one of your better bats because he can do some small things. Pods was the worst hitter on our team last year in terms of his overall production. He can hit singles and cause damage when he gets on base. If he can handle the bat a little he seems like perfect #2 hitter. I know it is unlikely to happen, but I can't imagine it wouldn't help the team. I didn't say I wanted him to bat second, did I?

I think Frank has gotten a bigger deal, just with a bunch of clauses.

QUOTE(TheHammer @ Nov 30, 2005 -> 05:00 PM) I like the idea of batting Iguchi leadoff and Podsednik second. Iguchi no longer has to give up at bats (His .342 OBP wasn't really worse than Pods at .351 anyway). We would end up getting a lot more power from the leadoff spot which I would argue is better than having that power in the two hole. He gets more extra-base hits than Pods which means he would score more runs. Also, Pods used to disrupt pitchers to get Iguchi better pitches. That did some damage. How much more damage would it do it more of his disruption came with Thome and Paulie up. Yeah, this is a genius idea. Someone call Ozzie. Um, simply no. Batting leadoff would hinder Iguchi from using his full abilities even more. That's all I'll say before the flaming comes.