Milkman delivers

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Nov 9, 2011 -> 12:18 PM) I don't have a problem with an initial report to the AD. I have a problem with not doing anything else in the intervening decade. If your superiors ignore serious concerns, you have a moral and ethical duty to raise those concerns outside of the chain of command. edit: I do have a problem with McQueary not immediately stopping the situation and/or calling the police. "Chain of command" is irrelevant when you're witnessing a crime in action, especially one of the level of child rape. We're not talking about securities fraud or insider trading here. I don't get what is so hard to understand. At worst, I can understand first informing your AD and giving him perhaps a few days to act on it. But if he doesn't, at that point, you have to call the cops yourself. I keep saying that Paterno is not legally in trouble here, but he's undoubtedly reached the point where he should be fired.

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Nov 9, 2011 -> 12:17 PM) Well the exaggeration to murder clearly distorts the scenario. Abusers don't leave behind bodies. Yeah, again, the GA had many more moral failings than Paterno here. But saying Paterno "is a football coach" glosses over a) his role and power in State College b) his relationship with both the accused and accuser. The accuser was someone Paterno had known personally for years; if he wasn't a credible, trusted person he would not have been given the positions with the PSU team that he had. I really can't believe how many people, if placed in the same situation, are saying that they would be fine with washing their hands of the matter. It makes me sick. Pass the buck right along.

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Nov 9, 2011 -> 12:12 PM) Milkman, Hard to fire an employee when you as the employer are far more responsible. Thats why they are going to let him retire. Paterno reported it to his supervisors, firing him is a classic case of kicking your dog because you screwed something up. The Board, or whatever has the final say, should be canning all of the people who took no action. I'm not asking for the AD to fire him. I'm saying that the governing board of the school should fire all 4 of the major players here (the witness, Paterno, the AD, and the VP).

QUOTE (iamshack @ Nov 9, 2011 -> 12:08 PM) Yeah, and he disassociated himself with him as much as possible. People have difficulty handling these sort of things. It's a fact of life. You've known someone for half your life and then you find out something horrendously awful about them that you never knew. Sometimes it's just too much for that person to be the person reporting the crime/act. Is it a "moral failure" or whatever you'd like to call it? Sure. And we all have more failures and make bad decisions. To me, it reads like Paterno simply was so disgusted with Sandusky that he didn't want to be involved in any way, shape, or form. I am not saying I condone that position necessarily, but I can certainly understand that someone would do it. Paterno is just some guy that's coached football all his life. I really understand that he works with young adults, and that part of his obligations are to shape them into men ready for life, and not just football. But that doesn't necessarily extend to personally chasing down child molesters and roasting them over an open fire for their crimes. He reported it to the appropriate authorities, and they failed to act. As did seemingly everyone involved here, including those whose sole job, the thing they do for a living, was to handle the situation. And yet this is going to revolve entirely around what Paterno did or didn't do. I just find that disingenuous. No, he reported it to the authorities appropriate enough to allow him to pass the buck and not get in trouble himself. The actual appropriate authorities would have been the police. And it seems that you're saying that you "think" Paterno took little action because he was disgusted by it. That may be true, or it may be false. What we can say, that isn't an opinion, is that he didn't do everything in his power to see that the situation was resolved. He did the bare minimum, which should save him from prosecution, but it shouldn't save him from losing his job and his public persona.

QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Nov 9, 2011 -> 12:06 PM) Honestly i'm probably going to do exactly what Paterno did. I'm going to immediately report it to the higher ups at Penn State. I'm going to trust that an AD and Senior VP of a top rated college like Penn State wouldn't try to cover it up. If the guy was banned from bringing kids to the locker room, i'm going to assume that whatever actually happened wasn't as bad as what we're finding out. Would I ask questions? Probably, but only if for some reason I don't think they did enough or that Sandusky's behavior warranted it. But the GA didn't do anything else either, so I dunno that there's any evidence that anything further happened. Rock has brought up some information that might change my mind on what Paterno knew after this incident, and if that's true then maybe Paterno deserves more of the blame. But none of that was part of the grand jury proceedings, so it's all speculation. Instead of jumping to judgment like everyone else, i'll see how it plays out. What?

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Nov 9, 2011 -> 11:53 AM) He's a bigger POS than Paterno in this case. However, the GJ found his testimony highly credible. Not a pattern of known abuse but a pattern of spending an abnormal amount of time with young boys. If you've got a friend who does that but seems on the up-and-up, and another trusted person tells you he just saw that guy raping a boy, it should set off lightbulbs in your head. Because they clearly swept it under the rug, imposed some minor hand-slaps on Sandusky and then sat on it for almost a decade? Paterno could have followed up at any time and should have. If there was truly nothing there, he wouldn't have been pushed aside, he wouldn't have been banned from specifically bringing young boys to games. Clearly something was up and they all chose to ignore it. Sure I do--the source was a current coach and former star player on Paterno's team. He would be trusted by Paterno--it wasn't some random person he'd never met making this accusations. Additionally, the GJ found his testimony to be credible. If it's credible now, it would be credible in 2002 when he was distraught and went directly to Paterno to tell him what he saw. There's nothing wrong with trusting him to do the right thing. But it's not like the abuse happened this March and we're finding out about it now. Paterno has had almost a decade to come forward after witnessing quiet sanctions of Sandusky but no real consequences and continued relationships with young boys. We didn't know he was fondling children. We just banned him from bringing little kids onto the premises because we hate children.

QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ Nov 9, 2011 -> 11:50 AM) I hold the AD, VP, Paterno, and McQueary in the same regard. None of them took action, none of them prevented it, all of them hold some sort of responsibility in reporting this to the authorities at some point(AD/VP when they were told by Paterno, Paterno/McQueary when they realized nothing was going to be done) Sandusky can be buried in a deep hole and forgotten All of this. It's simple as hell, really.

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Nov 9, 2011 -> 11:42 AM) Id have to see the facts, but generally the people who report a crime are those with first hand knowledge. Not some one who heard from some one else. That being said, its not about right or wrong, someone said what he did was against the law and I would have to see the law. I think most reasonable people would have reported it, but Im not sure its a crime. Perhaps not a crime, but certainly enough to be fired over. QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Nov 9, 2011 -> 11:43 AM) They should hire Matt Lawton. Now we're talking.

I just sent my list. This one is, without a doubt, the most fun I've had with any list. It was really, really hard to decide on a top 25. It's going to be extremely varied. I'm betting that there are going to be tons of characters that received only one vote. My hat's off to you on this one, Knight.

QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Nov 9, 2011 -> 11:20 AM) The Grass Mercedes? Merced is a Spanish word, too. It'd be like grasses benefits.

QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Nov 9, 2011 -> 09:00 AM) This. If you are a 26 year old who has been playing on your first contract, you want that big payday to set yourself for life. If you are Jim Thome who has made tons of money already, the contract doesn't mean much. QUOTE (onedude @ Nov 9, 2011 -> 09:08 AM) as an athlete...if offers were in 25-30 mil range, I'd take 10 mil off that just to go to a team with better chances. otherwise, top bidder if i'm going for my first big contract. These. It's entirely dependent on the situation. Say if I were Albert Pujols right now (minus the titles), I'd sign somewhere for around $20 million if that team has a real shot at winning it all. Nobody needs to make $30 million a year. Again, this is why Jered Weaver might be my favorite non-White Sox player.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Nov 9, 2011 -> 07:09 AM) Kevin_Goldstein Kevin Goldstein Also in the Cespedes update, Mercedes provided a list of teams that have already arranged to see Cespedes play, incl. the #Marlins on Thurs. For a second I thought it was saying his name was Mercedes Cespedes. That would be an awesome name.

QUOTE (RockRaines @ Nov 9, 2011 -> 11:10 AM) Actually in the State of Pennsylvania it is legally required to call the police in that situation. Boom, roasted.

QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Nov 9, 2011 -> 11:04 AM) Probably. But if Paterno's was involved in the cover-up, I dunno why that wouldn't be included in the grand jury finding. Whether it be explicit or implicit, he was involved with the cover up. He did the bare minimum required to cover his ass, and didn't alert the authorities. We can argue all we want that he perhaps had the purest of intentions and figured the AD took care of the situation, but we all know that's bulls***. Joe Paterno should be fired today. This isn't a court of law. There is way more than enough to force PSU to just can his ass immediately. And they're fools not to do so.

QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Nov 9, 2011 -> 10:24 AM) Tex i'm in agreement here. I have no personal like of Paterno, but I don't understand the outrage towards him. I think him retiring and his otherwise flawless legacy has been ruined by all this. He'll no longer be the coach with the most wins. He'll be the coach with the most wins who left the school after a terrible scandal. Penalty enough (with the information out right now). It's not surprising that every one wants to jump to judgment here. But I dunno that any of us would have acted differently if we were Paterno. He was given second hand information, the specificity of which is in question. At the time, the information is probably completely unbelievable given his history and friendship with Sandusky. Still, he reports it to the highest person in the department (the AD) who may well have told him he'd investigate the claim and that he'd deal with it. For all we know (and can probably expect, given the perjury committed by the AD), Paterno asked what happened and the AD lied to him and said nothing happened. Why would Paterno need to do anything more? He can rightly assume that the AD looked into it and found that there was no credible claim. Until I hear from Paterno and he explains what happened and what he knew, i'm not going to have a conniption fit over him symbolically coaching a game. At which point, he'll have been coached to perfection on what to say to cover his ass. There are no excuses here, but of course there are always going to be a couple of Devil's advocates.

QUOTE (HickoryHuskers @ Nov 9, 2011 -> 09:53 AM) I guess the only thing I would say is that the players on the 2011 Penn State team bear no guilt in this, and taking two coaches away in the middle of a season damages their chances at a Big Ten championship and a chance to go to a BCS game, which is not fair to them. Plus, firing Paterno and McQueary right now is only symbolic and really doesn't help the victims any. A better option might be to strip Paterno of any honors he might have (honorary degrees, professor emeritus, name on buildings/streets, etc.), and make sure that McQueary never works in football again. Awful. And if anyone's dad is found guilty of molesting a child or abetting in the molestation of a child, then they should see no repercussions because that dad has kids that depend on him and it's not fair to punish those kids for something that wasn't their fault.

QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Nov 9, 2011 -> 09:04 AM) AP reporting Paterno to retire at the end of the season. Big deal, he was gonna retire soon anyway. I hope every opposing fan is unrelenting and crass as can be. Paterno shouldn't have the chance to finish out the season. He should be out of a job at this very second.

QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Nov 9, 2011 -> 09:03 AM) Agreed, and that's part of the reason I hate these "OMG I loved Penn State but now I can't" articles circulating the web. That's issue number 10 on the list of what people should be focused on, the first being the kids and their families. Btw, who wants to bet me that the kid in the shower is a current Penn State player and/or student? Sandusky was known to get his "kids" onto the team. That's the beautiful thing about being a person. We have the ability to care about all of these things and want them all solved. Arrest the child molester and fire anyone who had knowledge of the incidents and didn't inform the police. Pretty damn simple.

I fear they're going to kill off Unser on SOA, the only good person on the show. The second Clay was beating up Gemma (which I loved), I knew she was going to ensure that he died. We all know my feelings on her being forced into the story, so of course she gets to be the crux of the plot to take Clay down. And it looks like the Sons will take on the cartel. I can't see this being believable. There's just no way a group of about 12 guys could have any success against those odds.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Nov 8, 2011 -> 04:48 PM) If that is the return, he is worth more to us on the chance that he rebounds. The odds of that are better than an A ball pitcher without a pedigree working out. The whole caveat was that the Sox decided that he wasn't rebounding. And the A ball guy would be one of those high-upside guys that's very raw.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Nov 8, 2011 -> 03:19 PM) Seriously, what would you trade for Gordon Beckham right now if you were another GM? I don't know. This is all based on the fact that Beckham can continue to get worse or stay exactly as bad as he is currently. Perhaps there's a GM out there who's willing to give up a prospect in the very low minors that can maybe mature into a decent starter. And perhaps Beckham has another pathetic year and nobody will give up anything at all for him next offseason and just wait until he's released to give him a chance if they have any interest at all. I'm just creating a scenario where I wouldn't mind if Beckham were traded. And to be honest, I don't care if he is or not.

Absolutely yes. But I doubt it matters. Firing Joe Paterno at this point would be like firing a watermelon.

QUOTE (daa84 @ Nov 8, 2011 -> 02:44 PM) nothing like selling low People saying this are writing off the possibility that he continues to get even worse. If the Sox truly believe he'll never recover from the crap he's become, it might be a good time to get something of value in return. At this point, I'm sure there are a few teams out there that think he's primed for a rebound, and they might just give up something of some value. I'm not saying that this is the case, but it could end up being so.

QUOTE (DirtySox @ Nov 8, 2011 -> 11:25 AM) Would the Sox really get good value for him? Seems like they might be selling low. Wait another year or two, and they might just be selling even lower. Depends on where you think he's going at this point.

There are only a few teams that wouldn't bother me. The obvious ones are the Cardinals, Brewers, and Reds. Other than that, perhaps either Texas team or the Royals.