Dick Allen

Yeah Hawk, if he played 3 feet more shallow he would have had no shot at that.

Omar Vizquel has a better OBP this season than Ozzie Guillen had with the Sox and is only .005 lower than Luis Aparicio's career OBP.

The thing is if they win today they have less of a chance to win on Tuesday. Maybe they would just rather win Tuesday. Make no mistake about it. This is a good ballclub. They just haven't found their stride yet.

3 runs isn't enough to win this game, but when you get a coaching visit to the mound 1 out into the game, its not a good sign.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Jun 6, 2010 -> 12:54 PM) Again, this has been going on since at least 2001 IMO. I agree. The roster on paper looks a lot better than the roster on the field. That said, there were plenty of "experts" and I'm not including Soxtalk posters who didn't think too much of the 2010 team.

QUOTE (TitoMB @ Jun 6, 2010 -> 12:51 PM) At this point, it'll be much, much better for this franchise if we lose. I don't believe in "moral" victories. This team should not be happy at ALL about losing 2/3 to the f***ing Indians at home. What would be better for the franchise is that they win today and go on a 15 game winning streak. That's not going to happen, but losing for draft position in June rarely can be seen as good for the franchise.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Jun 6, 2010 -> 11:30 AM) Well I'm not saying bring these guys up now. I'm saying bring them up in late July. And I don't care who they bring up...whatever guys are the most ready, bring them up. That's all I'm saying. If players merit a call up, I with you. If they don't, play out the string with what you have. I'm sure we will see Viciedo in Chicago this year, and I'm pretty sure Pauly will be gone by August unless something unexpected like winning starts happening.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Jun 6, 2010 -> 11:21 AM) Ok, so you two are advocating we don't bring anyone up and just play out the second half of a terrible season with the same guys that are failing now. What the hell does that accomplish? If Flowers gets back on track, call him up, but calling him up now would be like sending Lindsay Lohan into a room filled with vodka and cocaine. There would be nothing to evaluate. You already know the result.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Jun 6, 2010 -> 11:10 AM) Because we will most likely be 48-66 at that point, so we may as well use the opportunity to evaluate our kids a bit. You'd rather watch Donny Lucy and Ramon Castro? Like Owens and Fields were evaluated in 2007? Flowers and Danks should at least show they are ready to play in the big leagues before getting an extended look. They have been terrible in AAA. If you already know they cannot succeed, it does no good to call them up.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Jun 6, 2010 -> 11:06 AM) I think "stupid baseball player" is a bit of an overstatement....airhead or space cadet, maybe...but he makes up for a lot of that with his athleticism. Do you really believe that negative outweighs all the positives he brings? As I said he's a bargain, but he's not as valuable as his OPS would lead you to believe. Throwing out runners is almost impossible on a fairly close play when he's covering because he gets so far in front of second base. His positioning still leaves a lot to be desired, although I can't see where the dugout can't get his attention and tell him to move. He doesn't situationally hit. If there's a guy on second and nobody out, he's not looking or thinking right side. Konerko saved him from a 40+ errors season last year, and probably has saved him 6 or 7 additional errors this year with horrific lazy throws. If the Sox had better hitters at 3B and DH, they could easily afford a lesser hitter at SS. Their pitching staff would be much better off. I wouldn't give him away. I just wish the Sox played him somewhere other than SS, even with his occassional spectacular play.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Jun 6, 2010 -> 11:03 AM) Well, this season should be perfect for us to find out then, since it's basically a lost year...hopefully once we get to late July or so we'll be able to use the rest of the games to see what some of these kids can do (Flowers/Hudson/Santos/Danks2, etc) Why do you want to watch Flowers and Danks strike out so much? That is what they are doing and what they will do if called up in July.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jun 6, 2010 -> 10:58 AM) Ramirez has had nearly an 800 OPS since May 1st. How many SS's can you find with that ability at such a cheap price as his contract currently pays him? I think the list there is basically to be counted on a single hand, and none of those players are available for anything less than a Gordon Beckham or J. Danks or Thornton. Just wait until Escobar is doing his Esteban Beltre/Caruso impression and you'll see what I mean. The problem with Ramirez is he's a stupid baseball player. When you build a team around pitching, a low baseball IQ at SS isn't wise, but he is a bargain right now. I think a less talented smarter SS who might not have the OPS of Ramirez or even the range may be a better fit for the White Sox. If Guillen or Vizquel can't get your head out of your ass as a major league SS, I think its in there permanently.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jun 6, 2010 -> 10:49 AM) Which is exactly why another team would be scared to part with a huge package to get him. What would the White Sox give up to get, for example, Joel Zumaya? Not very much, I'd think. As a very cheap bullpen option who throws 96-98 and can be your possible solution to the Jenks mess (if Thornton/Pena both fail)...it would be pretty silly to trade him. If we can keep Linebrink and Williams on our roster for god knows how long, we can keep Santos even when he goes through some inevitable struggles. Santos is starting to get hit around a little bit, and it could be others have a scouting report. As I said, he's a guy I would look to trade, but I wouldn't give up unless I was getting back a pretty useful part. I think the guy needs to pitch. Its a total catch 22 with him. You don't want to over extend him because he hasn't really pitched before. You don't want to put him into situations where he's in over his head, because it may shatter him. He seems to be known as the future closer, but I don't know how anyone can assume that right now. We don't know if he can handle the workload or the pressure that comes with it. We know he throws hard and has some nasty secondary pitches. Whether or not he can execute them with the game on the line against hitters who will be more familiar with him is a huge question.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jun 6, 2010 -> 10:37 AM) Thornton could be almost like Zumaya (your 5th-8th inning situational "shut down" guy in critical situations) but significantly better and left-handed. And cheap. That has a TON of value to a lot of playoff-contending teams. Whether KW pulls the trigger, it all depends on whether he believes Matt can do the job as closer for 2011. If it's not Thornton, it has to be Pena or Santos, two big if's, but better than risking Jenks for another year. Santos is a guy I would think about trading. His is a nice story, but its hard for me to believe he's not going to eventually struggle with his lack of experience, not that he wouldn't be able to eventually overcome the struggles, but he has no options left and he'd never clear waivers.

QUOTE (flavum @ Jun 6, 2010 -> 10:29 AM) Absolutely, a team would pay dearly for Thornton. He could be a difference maker in the postseason. It doesn't matter that he's not a closer. Again...Yankees have Marte and Logan floating around there. You don't think they'd pay for Thornton to be a 7th/8th inning guy for Rivera? The White Sox would pay dearly not having him. Just take a peak at the lefties they have had the past several years.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Jun 6, 2010 -> 10:09 AM) Well, that $20 million is already committed to paying Rios and Peavy's salaries, as far as I can tell. I agree again with most of what you're saying, but the bargains you're talking about are no sure thing to perform either. I really don't see us being able to build a roster that way that would have any better chance of winning than the one we have this year. So the key is to trade guys who do perform on the major league level for guys who never have, but might later on? The logic sounds like Jerry Krause when he traded Elton Brand for Tyson Chandler. He said he Chandler had the potential to be a 20-10 guy. That was what Brand was. Lets trade Matt Thornton for a couple of pitching prospects and hope some day one of them turns out to be as good as Thornton. Thornton is nails and is cheap. If someone really wants to overpay and give the Sox a guy who will be an All Star 3B for the next 10 years or something like that, fine trade him. But if its for Jordan Danks-like prospects, its silly.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Jun 6, 2010 -> 09:53 AM) I tend to agree with you except for the fact that we've got to give up something of value in order to "get some legit players," as you say. We aren't going to be able to go out and sign many premier free agents, and so you're going to have to acquire some solid young talent somehow. The only way you can do that is by maximizing the value of some of your better-performing veterans by trading them this July. If I were Kenny I would try and find a match with a team that needs Thornton and also has a bit of a logjam at a position of need for us. The Rays, Reds, Jays, Phillies, Dodgers come to mind as possible matches... There have been plenty of bargains available the past 2 offseasons the White Sox have passed on. Jenks will be gone one way or another as will Konerko. I know payroll will be slashed, but they will still have some available. Just those 2 is $20 million off the books. I'm not expecting the White Sox to sign a premier free agent. They aren't going to win a bidding war over a player. Dumping Thornton who is also a financial bargain, also means creating another gaping hole on the White Sox roster. The problem is no team is going to give their top prospect for a set up guy, and if you're going to their 7th or 8th prospect or some obscure A ball player, who cares. Keep the guy. The White Sox are definitely going to try to win in 2011. There isn't going to be some 3 or 4 year rebuilding plan some masochists dream of. I don't see how anyone could even get the impression the White Sox regime could rebuild a contending team by developing players.

I don't know why you would trade Thornton. The White Sox are not going into a total rebuilding mode. They have Peavy and Buehrle for better or worse. They aren't going to get rid of Danks. They most likely won't trade Floyd. Garcia can be replaced by Hudson, so they are going to pretty much have the same rotation for the near future. With the condition of the AL Central, it doesn't take too much to think you have a chance. Beckham will snap out if it sometime. Quentin still has ability. Rios has ability. Maybe if the guys in AAA actually showed they may be ready for MLB it would be one thing, but remember last year when everyone wanted Beckham shipped back about a week after he was called up? He was light years more advanced than the current crop. I don't see what fun it would be to watch Flowers and Jordan Danks walk back to the dugout after collecting another golden sombrero. Keep Thornton. The bullpen needs him. This year is probably gone, but improve your roster, not with has beens like Vizquel and Kotsay and Jones and never beens like Nix and Teahen. Get some legit players, then you can move other guys like Ramirez and get someone who actually is smart on the baseball field and it really won't hurt you. I don't understand the comments that he's worth more to the White Sox than other teams as a reason to get rid of him. Its a reason to keep him. You won't get back what he's worth. If some team wants to give you a top 10 in baseball prospect who really can't miss, then bye Matt, but its not going to happen.

Ozzie needs a hot streak. His White Sox managerial record is only .005 ahead of Jerry Manuel, and we all know how stupid he was/is.

Through 55 games last year, the Sox had 3 more wins and were 6 games closer to first place than in 2010. Surprisingly they have scored 2 more runs this year compared to last, but have given up 19 more.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Jun 5, 2010 -> 05:23 PM) Hah, says the guy that pointed out there was absolutely no reason we shouldn't win yesterday... One of the problems with this team is that analysis means absolutely nothing. They lose games they should win all the time, and they win games they should lose once in a while. They are just absolutely unpredictable. I hope you're correct, but I find it incredible to place my hopes, dreams, or hard-earned money in the hands of this team... There was no reason. Masterson had lost 11 decisions in a row. Cleveland is horrible with all its players. They are missing 2 of their top 3. Danks was on the mound for the Sox. Last night was as bad a loss as the Sox have had in many years. I've already given them my hard earned money. The least they could do is throw me and everyone else in the same boat a bone starting tonight.

Peavy will fire a gem tonight. Beckham will homer. Call your bookies.

QUOTE (WCSox @ Jun 5, 2010 -> 01:36 PM) I never claimed that. But, despite your straw man arguments and silly downplaying of his achievements, Cooper's results are clearly there. Since 2004 the White Sox team ERA AL rankings I started with 2004 because that was Greg Walker's first full year and he gets crap daily. When Walker took over in 2003 the team led the league in hitting the remainder of the season: 2004 11th 2005 1st 2006 10th 2007 12th 2008 6th 2009 2nd 2010 13th You will use the argument they play in a bandbox, but most Sox pitchers do better at home than on the road. White Sox team OPS rankings: 2004 4th 2005 8th 2006 3rd 2007 12th 2008 4th 2009 11th 2010 10th Considering the White Sox spend a pretty penny on pitching, I don't think there's much of a difference. Again I'm not one for firing Cooper. I just wonder how he gets the free pass. Its not like Greg Walker hasn't had his successes with Dye, Konerko, Thome, Pods, Quentin, Rios is hitting this year. If he were a pitcher, Cooper is a genius, if he's a hitter he was always decent it has nothing to do with Walker.

QUOTE (WCSox @ Jun 5, 2010 -> 01:20 PM) Floyd went from terrible in Philly to an ERA+ of 119 and 115 in his last two seasons. That's a pretty significant turn-around. He also saved Contreras' major-league career and turned a post-shoulder-surgery junkball-throwing Freddy into a legit #4/#5 starter. I'm not going to put Coop on the same level as Dave Duncan or Leo Mazzone. But your characterization of him seems more driven by anger than logical analysis. There's no anger at all from my end. I would give El Duque the credit for Contreras more than Cooper. Contreras was so thrilled when the Colorado pitching coach made some adjustments and he was throwing 95 again. Jose actually has better numbers than Sergio Santos so far this season. Floyd has been wildly inconsistent. His ERA was nearly what it is right now a year ago, then he went on a tear, then he sucked again. He also was a top 5 pick in the draft, and I do agree you still have to develop them, but its not like his talent came out of nowhere. Cooper's transformation of Thornton should keep him on the Thornton family Christmas card and bonus list for the rest of his life. To give Cooper credit for Freddy is laughable, but if you must then you have to say Peavy and Floyd and Buehrle in 2010 is his fault. (I don't think it is BTW) I'm not saying Cooper is a bad pitching coach or even mediocre. I just don't think he walks on water like some believe.

QUOTE (WCSox @ Jun 5, 2010 -> 11:22 AM) I won't insult your intelligence by bringing up Cooper's track record with young pitchers and reclamation projects. I think his record is a little overblown. I don't think he should be fired, but I think getting hammered and talking on the radio hasn't hurt him. He has been great for Matt Thornton, but other than Thornton and maybe Jenks, and I don't know how much of Jenks' success you could pin on Cooper, most of his success stories have been relatively short-lived. Danks and Floyd were top prospects for other organizations, and Floyd is either Cy Young or garbage depending on the start.