Dick Allen

QUOTE (OmarComing25 @ Dec 5, 2015 -> 01:07 PM) Well that doesn't really describe the Giants, but it did work out for the '09 Yankees. It worked for Boston. But you aren't going to be able to do it unless you spend a lot of money.

He really has only had 1 stellar season as a starting pitcher. I wouldn't want to owe him 90 million.

QUOTE (flavum @ Dec 5, 2015 -> 12:19 PM) So does this mean we get the Giants pick at 19, or could it change with other free agents? They drop out of the first round, as does every team that doesn't have a protected pick and signs a QO guy. The Sox are 3 right now in the order after the typical first round. Of course if the Sox sign a QO guy, they lose this pick.

QUOTE (SoxPride18 @ Dec 5, 2015 -> 12:12 PM) Deal is official for Jeff and the Giants. 5 years/90 million. There's our comp pick But he had $100 million on the table.

a big park and getting to pitch to pitchers should help him out. That didn't work out so well, but a comp pick is better than nothing.

QUOTE (soxfan2014 @ Dec 5, 2015 -> 10:14 AM) I bet this deal happens this week. I am not willing to bet my house though. Don't know who would go to Oakland. If you would have bet Greg earlier, you would have had his house to play with. I do think your bet makes a lot of sense.

QUOTE (ChiSoxFanMike @ Dec 5, 2015 -> 10:46 AM) I hate seeing the comments that say the Sox should trade Sale because of his "injury concerns". How is he that different from any other pitcher? Yeah, he has a funky motion, but he's so tall and lanky that I don't think it's as bad for his elbow/arm/shoulder as people make it out to be. People have said that he's a TJ surgery waiting to happen since the day he was drafted, and nothing significant has happened to him yet. Knock on wood that nothing ever does. Every pitcher is a significant injury risk. It is just a matter of time. I read something many years ago that everyone's hair eventually turns gray. You might not live long enough for it to happen, but it would eventually happen. I feel the same way with pitchers and elbows and shoulders. Not many make it through a long career unscathed.

Re Glavine The stuff that he was getting several inches off the plate his entire career(4 inches in this thread) doesn't seem to line up with actual facts. I read an article about him a year or so ago and they didn't have the tools they do now regarding pitch track. Ques Tech came in when he was 35 and suddenly he had a bad year. Many thought that was proof of the advantage he supposedly had, but he was 35 and the next season he bounced back with a career normal season. He also was in less than 50 percentile during his peak of called strikes per pitch. He worked low and away to everyone, but if he was getting 4 inches, he would have had a lot higher called strike percentages. To think pitch framing isn't a useful skill worth something is just being naive and Flowers sucks no matter what. Is it as valuable as some think, and take Flowers from a 0.4 WAR to a 2.0, that is very debatable and I would probably side on no. A lot of it has to do with when you are getting the calls, and obviously the pitcher has a lot to do with it. 1 inch off the plate vs. 2 inches or an inch and a half could make all the difference. I didn't like pitch framing for a while because there were a couple of different lists, and they, for the most part, weren't very consistent with the same players. A couple of years a go, Flowers was really good, not elite in one, and horrible on another. But they seem to be a bit more in tandem now. All that said, the White Sox catching with Flowers is probably average. It wasn't the reason they lost, it wasn't the reason they won. The change most likely won't make it elite, but average seems to be reasonable, and Navarro makes a lot of contact. Try something new. If it doesn't work out, it isn't like they can't find another mediocre guy to throw back there. My Flowers fandom is probably pretty opposite of many. I wasn't too thrilled when he was handed the job, but despite being really bad in stretches, he basically gave the White Sox what most teams get behind the plate, so I didn't think a change was definitely necessary. I would have hated if they threw some prospects at Jason Castro last year. But they changed it up without trading any prospect or really paying more money. It is worth a shot. Good luck to Tyler.

QUOTE (soxfan2014 @ Dec 5, 2015 -> 09:20 AM) I think it's more likely that the Dodgers dump Crawford for nothing than Ethier. Ethier was actually good for them last year. You guys think LaRoche and an A-baller for Crawford and cash (with Dodgers dumping LaRoche to free agency) get it done? I don't see why the Dodgers or White Sox would want to do that.

QUOTE (IowaSoxFan @ Dec 4, 2015 -> 03:14 PM) Overwhelming in that they gave that up and more for a closer. 2013 Archie Bradley Michael Wacha 2014 Nick Castellanos Alen Hanson 2015 Archie Bradley JT Realmuto Getting that kind of package back for a guy that plays a 100 innnings a year is a win every time. I didn't look at the 2013-2015. But 2013 for sure. The others are maybes. In 3 or 4 years you will be able to tell if the other 2 would have been worth it. Besides Wacha and Santana, there isn't a lot that have helped major league teams win games. Selling prospects is a lot like shorting options. You can do really well a lot of the time, but when it bites you on the ass, it really bites you on the ass.

QUOTE (LDF @ Dec 4, 2015 -> 02:43 PM) ok, lets think about this, the sox will never get the prospect / players that will warrant what many will think is a fair price. i believe we can all agree to that. now i am looking at the playoff. that first game is, in many opinions, is crucial. it helps set the way the series may go. more importantly, it will give that team a huge boost. now all team will put there best pitcher there. the true, elite #1 sp on the team to take on the other teams #1 sp. it is a battle of the arms to put it mildly. for us, it is Sale, not Q and not Rodon. it is Sale. Oh, they can get a ton of ranked prospects. The problem is, you can't trade Chris Sale for prospects and have those prospects bust. Like the Reed/Davidson trade where the line "I'd make that trade 10 times out of 10" was invented. That can't happen for Sale or Q or Rodon. People b****ed and moaned KW traded not so good prospects and got some major league value back. Trading prospects who turn into tremendous major leaguers for more maybes is a way to keep your team bad for a long time.

QUOTE (IowaSoxFan @ Dec 4, 2015 -> 02:29 PM) I just saw an overwhelming prospect deal for a closer a week ago. Those days are not over, actually I think things are going to start moving more in that direction again since you have a few teams with such a large concentration of prospects that are trying to win now (Red Sox, Dodgers, Cubs). Boston traded the 25th and 76th rated prospects plus 2 other guys. Overwhelming you say. Reality 2009 25th rated prospect Brian Matusz 76th rated prospect Clint Negoette 2010 25th Carlos Santana 76th Roberto Hernandez 2011 Archie Bradley Jt Realmuto 2012 Archie Bradley Casey Kelly Overwhelming if you like what Phil Rogers rates your minor league system. Pretty underwhelming if you are trying to make your team better.

QUOTE (Baron @ Dec 4, 2015 -> 02:13 PM) I think his reporting is shady at best and his followers are bullies. Kind of reminds me of incarceratedbob. He got it from the George King story, so it wasn't a Lemming exclusive.

I think most teams have been pretty under the radar so far this offseason. I understand wanting to be a bit secretive, but to keep your team's name in the news and have them linked to big things, even if they are false, isn't always a bad thing.

QUOTE (IowaSoxFan @ Dec 4, 2015 -> 01:32 PM) And then you look at the package that Cleveland got for Bartolo Colon. There are examples of one sided trades in both directions you can cite. You can see what Boston offered, you it wasn't accepted so obviously the Mariners knew it wasn't going to be enough. I have been against trading Sale up to this point, but, I don't see a way that this team improves when so much of their organizational player value is wrapped up in guys that appear in less than 40% of their games. Something needs to change. Ir has been let slip that it will take a small army to acquire Q, it will take a larger army to get Sale. If Dombroski called tomorrow and offered Rodriguez, Swihart, JBJ, Devers and Moncada thats a trade I would have a hard time justifying turning down. Teams don't give that up anymore. That is why, despite all the prospects Boston has to acquire an ace, they overbid every other team by more than $30 million to get Price. You can get lucky, and have some secondary guys pan out, but the overwhelming offer isn't going to be there.

QUOTE (knightni @ Dec 4, 2015 -> 01:22 PM) What did he say? Probably the same thing as all the tweets. He pretty much sticks to the script.

The fluff version is he is competing for a job, the reality is, it's a long shot he is in the rotation on opening day. He pitched in 2 minor league games this season, and his major league NL ERA was over 6.00 in 2014.

QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Dec 4, 2015 -> 01:00 PM) I can't imagine Hahn committing substantial resources to starting pitching this year. That is why a guy like Nova sort of makes sense. If they trade starting pitching, they will need more.

QUOTE (GreenSox @ Dec 4, 2015 -> 12:54 PM) Wrong again, Dick. I said it was a bad trade on paper - and it was. You look at things retrospectively. Constantly. Always. Further, in this case, the Sox would be trading FOR the prospect and not trading of the prospect. Surely you can see the difference. Now, please tell me the top TEN Major league prospect plus starting catcher that the Cubs will trade for our #3 starter (we don't really have one of those - but if we did). You're 0/2 in your attempts at "gotcha" today, Dick. Keep trolling me and try for a 3rd. So if trading the prospect is bad on paper, trading FOR the prospect would be good on paper. Selling high on Jeremy Reed wasn't a mistake. You eventually will figure that out.

QUOTE (Y2JImmy0 @ Dec 4, 2015 -> 12:45 PM) I was probably Dunn's biggest fan on this board. He underachieved though as a whole. He might have underachieved, but HR wise he was fine. Even with his ridiculously bad 2011, Dunn homered once every 20.63 plate appearances as a White Sox. Alvarez has homered once ever 21.25 plate appearances his career. Avarez does have a .018 higher OPS than Dunn had as a White Sox. I don't see the allure. If you don't like Adam Dunn, there is no reason to like Pedro Alvarez.

QUOTE (WhiteSoxLifer @ Dec 4, 2015 -> 12:46 PM) But what would you have to give up to get him. The issue of trading for him when Sox have more holes to upgrade before starting pitching makes no sense It would indicate to me a starting pitcher or 2 is being sent to another team.

Screw Eithier and the like, if the Sox go after Nova, put a little more in the pot and get Brett Gardner. He was awful the second half last season but he was hurt. He's an older Eaton with a huge bald spot.

QUOTE (SoxPride18 @ Dec 4, 2015 -> 12:27 PM) Lol he's such a homer. He is. He is actually a good guy. I know many of us cannot stand him, but if you met him, you would really like him. His problem is he can't hide is Cubs bias. .

What are the odds Kaplan asks Hahn what is the one move the Cubs can make to get them over the top?

QUOTE (GreenSox @ Dec 4, 2015 -> 12:14 PM) Cubs have no ml ready prospects. Baez is high risk. There is no match in a trade with the Cubs. The cubbie media just wants Cubs to get Sox pitchers for their excess junk. Now that's funny. The guy who even in hindsight said trading Jeremy Reed was a mistake thinks a 22 year old who hit .320 with power in AAA and can play SS and was a top 5 prospect as a 21 year old is not mlb ready and high risk. Do not acquire. Your entire narrative has been destroyed.