harfman77

Sale can fill Thorntons role the rest of the season, and then Santos Rodriguez could be ready to step up and Sale can make a run at the rotation in the spring.

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Jul 26, 2011 -> 01:57 PM) Moving a 35 year old MR with 2 more years on his contract (I think) is not a big move. Look what the Dodgers had to give up to get George Sherrill to pitch in MR in his walk year. A top prospect in Josh Bell and a second fringe prospect. Thornton has a better track record than Sherrill did, who's success turned out to be an anomaly.

Out. White Flag it, blow this thing up, and lets re-tool. The sooner we get guys out on the market the better return we will get and the sooner we will be contending again. The future is pretty bleak for the Sox as it stands - KC will be a force over the next five years, the Indians are starting to figure it out and have more help on the way, the Twins are well stocked (though they may be handcuffed by Morneau), Detroit has a pretty young core with Jackson, Cabrera, Avila, Boesch, and Verlander. The Sox most likely wont be able to sign CQ after next season with all the money that is committed to existing contracts and extenstions, the same with Danks and MB after this year. The rest of the core group is past their prime. I understand going for it because this is likely the final chance this group will have, but if the Sox want to remain competitive long term and not switch positions with KC in the standings for five years it is time to re-tool the system and the team in Chicago.

It really seems like it is an attitude issue. Losing doesn't seem to bother most of the guys that much, probably because they have gotten used to it. AJP is probably the one guy that you know brings it every night he is in the lineup. But there really isnt that vocal leader in the clubhouse, there is Ozzie, but really there needs to be a player holding everyone else accountable. Paulie is too nice of a guy to get into Rios's face for lolli-popping a throw or dogging it on the bases. In 2005 Rowand was the catalyst for a lot of that, it seems a presence like that is what is holding this team back.

QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ Jul 26, 2011 -> 11:39 AM) that is hilariously dumb if true Its the difference between getting a multi-year deal at 33 instead of 34. I think his agents probably have some metrics that say he is better off hitting free agency this season I would guess, especially given the uptake in production he has had over the last six weeks. Sox payroll couldn't support him though and we dont have the prospects to get the Cubs to eat some money.

QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ Jul 26, 2011 -> 11:32 AM) who reported that? That is the first i heard he didnt want his money Rosenthal per MLBTR "If traded, Ramirez would likely want his new club to drop his $16MM option for 2012 so that he can hit the open market after this season, Rosenthal reports. Ramirez's '12 option technically becomes guaranteed if he gets traded. " http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/aramis_ramirez/

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Jul 26, 2011 -> 11:25 AM) He's not getting traded to anybody. $16 million dollar option vests if he's traded. Its been reported multiple times that he would want any team that trades for him to void the option as part of compensation for waiving his no trade clause. So that is really not an issue. But he would only be a rental and projects to be a Type B FA.

With KW's talk about turning over the roster, it makes me wonder if the attitude in the Sox locker room is not very good and they are keeping Viciedo away from that for as long as possible to keep him from picking up bad habits.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 26, 2011 -> 07:17 AM) With Rios, Dunn and Konerko and Peavy on the books for a couple of years and AJ probably impossible to move with his $6 million coming next year, a full blown youth movement isn't happening. He may try to step back a bit and diminish expectations, but IMO the only reason why would be to buy himself some time. I think he's starting to feel the heat. If you've ever listened to his "as long as I sit in this chair" speeches, rebuilding isn't mentioned. Its reloading. I also agree, he isn't trading Viciedo unless its for something huge. Dunn may be the only player of that group that is unmovable. The rest could be moved depending on the amount of money the Sox are willing to take on. If you are getting pre-arb players in return it would make sense to eat some money, especially in the case of AJ. If KW were to hold a firesale - Konerko is the top 1B on the market - SF could desparately use him, Yanks need a DH, Rangers, Braves and Dbacks all need a 1B MB and Danks are the top two LHP's - Yanks, Cardinals, Rangers, Reds, Red Sox all need help Quentin is the top Corner outfielder - mostly due to his contract status - Phillies, Braves, Rangers, Pirates and Giants all need OF help - Yanks need a DH Edwin Jackson is a top 10 SP on the market - Brewers, Yanks and Red Sox could use a rental Thornton is the top LHRP on the market - See the return George Sherrill got for the O's in his walk year Crain would be very valuable to teams worried about the skewed stats of SD relievers AJP would be the best offensive catcher available - Pirates need a C Beckham would be one of the top 2B on the market (thin crop) but it would be selling low - not getting moved Alexi (wont be traded) would be far and away the best SS on the market - going nowhere If they were to turn over the roster I would imagine that Santos. Ramirez and Beckham would stay. Dunn would probably remain as DH or 1B as well because of his contract situation and the reality that you would only get pennies back on your dollar of investment. Lilli could play CF, De Aza in LF and Viciedo in RF. The team probably is the worst in the Central this season but depending on what level of talent KW gets back they might not be that far away.

From Joel Sherman's Twitter: "Heard #Whitesox scouts are spending a lot of time on systems of #Yankees #Redsox #Phillies in case they sell at deadline" Yankees really have nothing that would get me that excited, Montero is coming back to Earth and they wont trade their good pitching spects. Romine would be pretty good, but Yanks see him as their C of the future. Red Sox are going to have a crunch on their 40 man roster at the end of the season so they may be willing to give up a little more major league ready talent since the Sox have the room. The Phillies could probably provide the best talent and probably only figure in if the Sox are going to blow up the bullpen or move Quentin. Quentin could bring back a pretty good haul from the phils, though the prospects would likely all be in A ball this season.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jul 20, 2011 -> 02:33 PM) That doesn't really make the team any better. Most likely it makes them worse. Which is the whole reason he is still in Charlotte. There was a decision made that they were going to play DV in RF this season so he could come up to Chicago and play the same position. Trade Quentin away and get a cheap replacement for Pierre for next season and another SP candidate in case MB walks at the end of the year. Quentin's value will never be higher than it is now and with payroll concerns he will likely be moved eventually anyway.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Jul 20, 2011 -> 02:13 PM) Dunn needs to hit the DL. Minimum 15 game trip, but it allows like 7-10 days to clear his head and completely forget about baseball (while still training) and then you get him 5 games against garbage in AAA. They should have put him on the DL before returning from his appendectomy and let him get back in the swing of things so to speak. I really wonder if there are mechanical problems as a result of trying to swing through the pain from the surgery that have developed.

QUOTE (BigSqwert @ Jul 20, 2011 -> 02:02 PM) I mean how many other teams in this exact scenario wouldn't have called up their best AAA hitter by now? Not the Reds so at least one.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 20, 2011 -> 02:07 PM) The biggest problem with blaming the GM is that the GM may simply have no power here. If he can't force the manager to play the kid, the manager refuses to play the kid...and the owner has decided that the GM can't remove the manager...then the GM is powerless. If KW wants Viciedo up all he has to do is trade Quentin. Dunn is going nowhere with that salary ditto with Rios, if Pierre is moved Ozzie will run Lilli or De Aza out to LF everyday.

QUOTE (JPN366 @ Jul 19, 2011 -> 11:29 PM) They have Kotsay and Andy Gonzalez is on their AAA team...there's your return. Counsell too, you get back Counsell. Do you really need a lot in return for Teahen if you can move his contract?

I think Teahen is being put out there to raise any value he may have in a trade. The Brewers are looking for a 3B and Teahen is good enough to play in the National League everyday. If Marcum is out long term I could see Teahen going with Jackson.

Sounds like time for the Trade Winds forum to open up.

Two more candidates if Ozzie were to leave at the end of the season would be Dave Martinez and Sandy Alomar Jr.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jul 14, 2011 -> 09:00 AM) He is already maxed somewhere between 45-50 pitches. If you push that up 15-20 pitches per outing, which is how they would do it in spring training, it wouldn't be long at all. It would take probably about three weeks (3-4) starts before he would be ready, but with six starters now there isn't really a rush to move him to the starting rotation. He should finish the season where he is, getting used to pitching in the majors and learning all he can each time he faces a guy, because the game is a whole lot different facing a guy one time after he has seen someone else than it is facing a guy who has already seen your stuff 2-3 times in the game.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jul 14, 2011 -> 08:34 AM) Basically we owe Rios $43 million more dollars (including buyout and $1 million per season salary increase in the case of a trade b4 2014) Young would cost us $24 million through the end of next season. Obviously Young would be a huge upgrade over Morel at 3B, but... Who would play CF? You're going to have to make another trade/acquisition or play some combination of Lillibridge/DeAza/Danks in CF. Assuming we kept Quentin and Viciedo together, the huge premium would then go to finding a CFer who could play stout defense to make up for the shortcomings on either side of him. So let's say you trade Rios and Jackson for Young. That makes sense. But trading Rios and Floyd for Young, that puts our entire rotation into flux for 2012 because then we'd only have Danks (maybe), Humber, Peavy and Sale (???) and another ??? at the 5th spot. Who knows what ends up happening with Buehrle. I don't think he would want to stay if he knew he was going to be part of a 2-3 year rebuilding/restructuring effort. Indications in the rumor that I read was that the Rangers would include Julio Borbon in a deal for a CF, since he would essentially be blocked anyway. Obviously the big loser is Brent Morel as he would be in limbo for the next 30 months, but as much as like him, he really wouldn't be hurt with more time to work on his hitting. I love his approach but not so much the results. If he sets the world on fire at AAA you could perhaps move him for another piece, but that is a big if. I think Floyd is probably not the pitcher to be dealt it would more likely be Danks or Jackson. With Danks you would get back some of Texas' stacked minor league pitching or with Jackson you get a minor prospect and move on. As far as money goes, Young is owed $40M through 2013, Rios would be owed $38.5M through 2014 with a $1.5M buyout, so the money is basically the same, the difference is in how it is paid.

I do wonder about a Rios for Young swap. The Rangers are said to be desparately looking for a CF and Young has become a $16M utility player for them. It would requre sending a SP to the Rangers as well. Rios has one more year on his contract, but the money is pretty similar. Young could slide in as the everyday 3B for the next few seasons.

QUOTE (GreenSox @ Jul 11, 2011 -> 08:29 PM) Quentin for Bourne: yikes! Doesn't help us in any way. You do this trade to get the pitching set for next year; with good pitching, we'll at least be decent. Quentin for Beachy is a tad light for the Sox, but not that light and compared to recent trades, damn strong. If you send Quentin to the Braves for Beachy and another SP prospect, you can then turn around and ship two of the 7 seven starting pitchers on the roster to Houston for Bourn and another prospect or to the NYY for Gardner and a prospect. The Yankees may take Pierre back to be a fourth OF and pinch runner the rest of the season. You are not really replacing Quentin with Bourn, you are replacing him with Viciedo and replacing Pierre with Bourn, and that helps us a lot. At the same time you can set your rotation for the rest of the season and next season.

QUOTE (kitekrazy @ Jul 10, 2011 -> 02:22 AM) Maybe a multi player trade involving Quentin and Danks? I think if you are gonna move Quentin for a pitcher that you need to have a secondary move that sends pitching to either the Yankees or Astros for Gardner or Bourn. Quentin for Beachy would be pretty one-sided for the Braves though, the Sox give up an All-Star caliber OF for a guy who projects as career back of the rotation guy, so there would need to be more pieces than that from a Sox perspective.

QUOTE (elrockinMT @ Jun 29, 2011 -> 01:59 PM) They are not trading CQ. Why trade a guy with that upside. Anyone goes its Pierre or Rios Because to make a trade you have to give up something that other people would want. CQ is pretty up and down, has been good this year but last year at this time every other thread was about getting rid of him. You need to trade guys when they are at peak value in order to get a good ROI. The Phillies, Giants, and Braves are all looking for an OF bat and have some pieces that would make sense either short or long term. Pierre's not really a need for anyone and Rios' contract is unmovable. The only way Viciedo is getting a called up is if KW clears a spot for him or trades him to someone that has a spot open for him.

I am starting to believe that the only way that Viciedo gets up is if KW can move CQ. If JP is taken out of the lineup Ozzie is going to play De Aza or Lilli in LF to get his speedy leadoff guy at the top of the line-up. Dunn is not getting benched in favor of anyone. Viciedo could swap places with Morel but it sounds like the organization is committed to him being an OF. I think KW has a couple of deals up his sleeve, I think he will move one of the SP's (Danks) rather than relegating one to the bullpen and will move Quentin to open a spot for Viciedo and in making one of those moves will include Pierre and bring back another LF candidate.