witesoxfan

QUOTE(JUGGERNAUT @ Feb 8, 2005 -> 04:37 PM) Let me try this again. You sign Maggs + Dye for 16M. You trade Lee + stuff + cash for Hudson. So it's really a question of whether Maggs, Dye, Hudson > Dye, Iguchi, Herm, Pods, Viz, & AJP Since I am not all convinced that Viz & Herm will greatly improve the Pen I'll take the 3 over the 6. That's from the Sox perspective. From the Det perspective. The contract is voidable any year after the first it says that in the Detroit Free Press. But again that's only if the DL time in encurred due to a problem with that knee. So it's a pre-existing condition void clause. I'm sure the Tigs are taking out general disability insurance on the contract. That covers the first 3 yrs. If Maggs has not matter a difference in W/L for the Tigs in that time do you really think he'll remain a Tig? As long as he puts up 30/300/100 like numbers each yr the Tigs will be able to trade him & the contract. Illich was a fool for bidding against himself. I think we all agree with that. But in the end the signing is likely to help Det more than hurt them. He'll remain a Tig for as long as Illich wants to watch him play. That does not work out financially. With Davis, Konerko, Harris, Uribe, Crede, Maggs, Rowand, Dye, Thomas, Buehrle, Garcia, Hudson, Contreras, and Garland just counted right now, I have the payroll at $69.5 mill. That does NOT include Everett at $4 mill, Shingo at $2.5 mill, Marte at $2 mill, Gload at roughly $1 mill, the cash involved in the Hudson deal, nor anyone else. You make those additions, and the Sox are looking at $80+ mill, well beyond the threshole set prior to the offseason. If you do that, you then have to worry about trading Konerko elsewhere too, and you are losing production there offensively. And Lee and stuff...this stuff would likely include either BMac or Marte, and likely another player too. Consider that too before making the trade. The point is moot anyways...Maggs is a Tiger, and he would have had to produce at atleast 2003 level to be anything close to worth $12 mill. It's really not worth getting into, because the team is better constructed this way then it would have been otherwise.

QUOTE(Frank the Tank 35 @ Feb 8, 2005 -> 04:36 PM) The 2003 Marlins did have a great rotation, but going into the season they had just as many question marks as we do now. Beckett was pretty much only in his second year plus he had that whole blister thing. Willis was a rookie who they got from the Cubs for Clement and had a ridiculous season. Pavano had shown flashes of dominance in his past, but on the flip side he had a couple seasons where he threw in the 6's for era plus he'd been pitching in the league for like 5 years already. Redman came out and had the best season he'd ever had... like .7 era better than his very best season (granted in the AL... but that only accounts for .3). Their "ace" Burnett was out for the season. Penny was just about the most solid thing they had going into the season. The commonality here is the potential. Unfortunately we don't have the potential of lots of young guys but rather we're sorta relying on the potential of a couple aging Cubans. Our rotation, for the most part, has reached its potential IMO. Buehrle will never pitch better then he has pitched over the past few years, Garcia is probably about a 4.00 ERA pitcher, Duque is very much on the decline as he gets up there in age, Contreras may or may not reach his potential(but at 32 or 43 or however old he is, that may be hard), and I honestly do not believe Garland will be much better then he has shown either. They did have as many question marks...but their rotation had a higher ceiling then ours. You did nail it on the head.

QUOTE(CWSGuy406 @ Feb 8, 2005 -> 03:56 PM) wsf -- do you think it's a fair statement to say, if we had Durham for 2003, the whole season -- producing at or around a .380 OBP, we make the playoffs? I honestly believe that a consistent leadoff hitter in 2003 gets us at least to the playoffs, if not beyond. 2003 -- The team that could have been... Possibly. The thing, to me, that killed us more than a consistent leadoff hitter was the lack of a #5 starter. Wright-Porzio-Stewart-Cotts was horrible. We have Jason Grilli in the 5th spot, and we could have won the division. We needed someone in that 5th spot to get us 7 or 8 wins, and keep us in games, so the offense could take over, and we would have won that division.

QUOTE(YoungstownIndians @ Feb 7, 2005 -> 08:36 PM) Someone said in an earlier post they have had the Sox at 2 and 3 the last few years in Predictions. I said I agree. AND YOUNGSTOWN IS SWEET! If you are referring to what I said, I was actually talking about how most experts predicted the Sox to win it in 01, 02, and 03...all 3 times that did not occur. The Royals were picked to win the division in 04 too by several, as GHC pointed out. That worked out real well. Pre-season predictions mean absolutely nothing. OMG, INDIANS ARE PICKED TO WIN THE DIVISION, SWEET, THAT MEANS THEY WILL WIN. or not :banghead

QUOTE(CWSGuy406 @ Feb 8, 2005 -> 03:47 PM) Again... It goes back to the problem, as Cheat points out, we haven't had a good leadoff hitter/leadoff men since, when? 2002 Durham - .390 OBP(for half a season or so with us) Lofton was good when healthy too

QUOTE(WHITESOXRANDY @ Feb 6, 2005 -> 11:16 AM) We'll score more runs than last year and more importantly we'll score "the key run" we need more frequently. I don't think we will score 866 runs or more with this lineup. It would take a hell of a lot of gelling to make that work. You also have to consider with Florida in 2003 that they had a rotation of Beckett-Penny-Willis-Pavano-Redman. Looks better then ours to me.

QUOTE(JUGGERNAUT @ Feb 8, 2005 -> 03:24 PM) I'm looking at this completely different. Lee was gone. That was a given. I do not think that signing Maggs to a 12M arbit award means we don't sign Dye. I still think we sign Dye. The difference is with both Maggs & Dye, Lee is pkg'd in a trade for someone like Hudson arm rather than Pods, Vizc, & a PTBNL. The Tigers paid 6M for a trial period of Maggs. If he's on the DL more than 25 times due to his knee the contract is void as is the signing bonus. How can you call that dumb? ...? What does that first part have anything I said? I'm saying Dye is better for the money, that's it. I'm not talking about us having both. You also have to consider that if we have both Maggs and Dye, at rougly $16 mill combined($12 for Maggs, $4 for Dye), that probably means we do not sign Iguchi, we do not sign AJ, we do not sign Duque, we do not sign Hermanson. Iguchi makes $2.3 mill, AJ $2.25 mill, Duque about $3 mill, Hermanson $2 mill...add those up, and you are at rougly $9.55 mill or so, plus Dye, you are at $13.55 mill. Iguchi, AJ, Duque, Hermanson, Dye > Maggs and Dye The Tigers are dumb for offering this contract because Maggs can have break his arm or tear his right ACL, or any other injury, other then one that effects his left knee, and he is GUARANTEED $75 mill. If he can limp around on his left knee while staying off the DL for 25 days, and he is GUARANTEED $75 mill. The most Maggs should have been signed to was 2 years. It's a horrible contract. Not only that, but there is no guarantee that he is back at hitting .310 .370 .550 after this injury, especially when you consider he is going from one of the best hitters parks in the AL and is going to one of the best pitchers park in the majors. If they get lucky, Maggs reinjures his left knee and is out for 25 days or more. I am hoping he doesn't injure it and they are under that burden of a contract again. Another Bobby Higginson contract couldn't hurt them, now could it?

QUOTE(Man Of Steel @ Feb 7, 2005 -> 11:31 AM) Who the hell is Derrick Williams? I hope you dont mean Derrick Johnson because there is no way the Bears could get Mike Williams and Derrick Johnson, they are both top 15 picks in this draft.. Well they could...anything can happen. But they'd have to give up an insane package to get another top 10 pick(possibly another top 5 pick, because I have seen comparisons of Johnson to Ray Lewis, only at OLB, noting that he is that good), and that would be stupid as hell. Scott Wright has Johnson going at 16, and I don't think there is a chance of that happening...not even close, nor do I think he is going to be the second OLB taken(though Merriman is listed as an OLB/DE). Basically, I view both Williams and Johnson as top 10 picks, to whoever. The Bears might get one, but not a chance(if they are smart) at both.

QUOTE(AnthraxFan93 @ Feb 8, 2005 -> 09:40 AM) ANd if Mags puts up numbers like he has in the past.. who is the dumb one? Jermaine Dye career .272/.334/.463(.797) - 2 year, $10.15 mill deal Magglio Ordonez career .307/.364/.525(.889) - 5 year, $75 mill deal According to the math, one is getting just over $5 mill over 2 years, and the other is getting $15 mill over 5 years. Now, I'm not going to be the first and only to tell you that an OPS of .889 is better than an OPS of .797. But is it $10 mill per with 3 more years included better? Methinks no. On top of that, the $5 mill player is better defensively then the $15 mill player is too, along with the fact that the $5 mill is a safer health bet then the $15 mill. We got lucky he turned down our offer, regardless of health. Jermaine Dye is better for the money. Tigers = the dumb

I won't congratulate them. I hate them too much. I hate dynasties. The only dynasty I have ever liked was the Bulls.

I love that guy

QUOTE(Gene Honda Civic @ Feb 7, 2005 -> 06:33 PM) Don't forget all those royals predictions last year... Of course And then Joe Posnanski, when the Royals were in last place by a million games, comes out with an article..."I guarantee the Royals will win the division.' HAHA, LMFAO

QUOTE(YoungstownIndians @ Feb 7, 2005 -> 06:17 PM) Okay say whatever you want.... I am EXTREMELY OPTIMISTIC This year. I have been looking at the last few years as REBUILDING. But this is our year. And so far all predictions on websites have us higher than you except 1 maybe 2. Most publications had the White Sox winning in 02 and 03 too.

QUOTE(santo=dorf @ Feb 7, 2005 -> 04:05 PM) Quick stats: If Wite were to take his posts in this thread and make them into a paper, 12 font, double spacing, it would be 42 pages long. All of his posts added up to 10,062 words! Just thought you might be interested wite. Haha. That's good stuff right there. See, that's what happens when you have nothing to do. Soxtalk - my anti-drug

QUOTE(YoungstownIndians @ Feb 7, 2005 -> 04:04 PM) I never said I didn't like the rules. I simply can say my dislike toward the SOX and the rest of the division... And yes bad the last 3 years, well look then during the 90s....That is US this YEAR! As an opposing fan, no you can't say that. It is viewed as trolling. And that last part...no

QUOTE(santo=dorf @ Feb 7, 2005 -> 03:47 PM) Jesus Wite, you put a ton of time into this thread, and what happened with hawaiisoxfn? I did put a lot of time in this thread.

I would still defend this trade today, even if it is not possible to make it anymore. I do think this trade would have been great for the Sox. A rotation of Hudson-Buehrle-Garcia-Contreras-Garland could have been huge for us. And I think the A's will surprise a lot of people. They could be an 85 win team. That bullpen is incredibly stacked, and they have a lot of talent all around. I don't think they'll contend too closely, but they will be better then most think.

QUOTE(Texsox @ Feb 7, 2005 -> 03:13 PM) That (not playing him) was mentioned on one of the Tiger's boards. The downside for the team is they loose credibility with other players if they want to include incentives for other players. One homerun short of $500,000 and worry about getting benched. The only way these incentives work is both sides need to be fair. I doubt he'll see years 6 and 7. Losing what little credibility they have would hurt them a lot. I don't think he'll see 6 or 7 either. I think there's a good chance he won't see 2, 3, 4, or 5 either.

QUOTE(YoungstownIndians @ Feb 7, 2005 -> 03:09 PM) Hey man even in the PM I sent back to you I said you could! I am here to post. Thats it. The sig is just there! And I got the right to say I hate the Sox. Even without a link! You can say you hate the Sox, but good luck cheering for the Indians on here(2 3rd place and 1 4th place finish in the last 3 years...SWEET!). You can't have that as your sig, especially as an opposing fan. That makes you a troll. Trolls get banned.

QUOTE(southsider2k5 @ Feb 7, 2005 -> 03:02 PM) If I am understanding it right, the last two years are team options. I think the max they are stuck with is $75 mil. The options vest. If he meets those requirements, the options vest. I can't see why the $105 mill couldn't be made while only playing 2 full years. Tex, that is plate appearances, not AB's. If he has 470 AB's but 70 walks, the options still do vest as he has 540 PA's. I just wonder if Detroit wouldn't intentionally have him not play during those last two years if he isn't producing well. It wouldn't surprise me, and I actually think it would be the wise thing to do.

This team is so high-risk, high-reward, it is not even funny. If Pods gets back to 03 form, if Iguchi peforms similarly to what he did in Japan, if Dye can put up .275 30 110 .850, Everett can give us good numbers off the bench, Rowand and Uribe can avoid "sophomore" slumps, if Crede can bust through, if Garcia can pitch well, if Duque can stay healthy....I can go on and on and on. We do most of that, this team is a 100 win team. If Pods is back to 04 form, Iguchi struggles, Dye gets hurt, Everett can't produce, Rowand and Uribe do suffer slumps, Crede is awful again, Garcia is back to 03 form, Duque gets hurt....again, I can go on and on and on. All of the perviously mentioned occurs, we are a 75 win team, or probably worse, because we'd be out at the deadline and pieces would be traded. The key to this season is to stay healthy, specifically the pitching staff. If they stay healthy, and produce well...I have almost no doubt we win the division. The offense will produce, regardless of who is hitting where. Pitching, pitching, pitching...we can't have enough of it.

QUOTE(southsider2k5 @ Feb 7, 2005 -> 11:34 AM) I'm thinking Albert Belle might be a little more accurate by the time this contract is said and done. The contract reminds me of Belle a little more, but as far as production is concerned, I think Detroit will be lucky to get Juan Gonzalez's numbers from 2000 out of Maggs. And I was wondering...is it possible for him to get all $105 mill for playing 2 seasons? Say this year, he tears his right ACL, having nothing to do with his left. He is, for some reason, he is hurt the next 2, shows up healthy for the last two of the 5, has the options vest, and then is out for the next 2. Would that work? However this works out, Detroit got themselves into a huge mess with this contract.

QUOTE(tonyho7476 @ Feb 7, 2005 -> 02:40 PM) Apparently the Cubs thought Maggs would like to stick it in the Sox faces...obviously money talks. I'm still baffled that the Tigers are paying him all this money. Vlad Guerrero must be sitting at home thinking, 'this gimp just signed for more than me'. If Hendry was such a genius, it wouldn't have cost him $17 for Burnitz (Sammy's 12 + 5 for Jeremy) Money talks, that is for sure. But when Boras is your agent, it is the only thing that talks...the rest is just smoke.

QUOTE(qwerty @ Feb 6, 2005 -> 04:03 PM) Big loss, right? It's going to devastate me

Just so I can throw it out there... Juan Gonzalez, anyone?