witesoxfan

QUOTE (thxfrthmmrs @ Aug 29, 2014 -> 09:52 AM) Unless he's brought back at a insanely good deal next year, something around $5 mil. Paying a number 6 hitter who can neither play defense nor hit lefties any more than that would be a bad deal. Also, we do not have a lot position player who are "good hitters" that you can put at the cleanup spot. Deploying a DH who's only an "average hitter" would put more pressure on Hahn to add a catcher or LF who's also a great hitter, which would be more expensive. I want to stress again that I'm not advocating bringing Dunn back as anything more than a last resort. If they fail to upgrade the lineup prior to about January 15th, and Dunn is still hanging out there, then I have no problem with them bringing him back, but at the same time, I'd almost rather see them try and fill that role with guys already in the organization. I'd say get Wilkins some reps in the outfield to see if he shows any competency and get Phegley some reps at 1B.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Aug 29, 2014 -> 09:38 AM) I've never seen that said before. Where does this come from. The MLB and MLBPA will rarely allow any sort of conditions of contracts or agreements to be based on performance other than award based (SS, GG, ASG, MVP, yada yada). It's basically "if the guy suits up and plays a lot for us, we will reward you better."

QUOTE (knightni @ Aug 29, 2014 -> 09:37 AM) Okay! I'm a Game Grumps fan, myself. I also watch other review shows, but these guys are funnier than most. Egoraptor and JonTron. I like anything those guys do individually too.

QUOTE (HickoryHuskers @ Aug 29, 2014 -> 09:31 AM) The PTBNL can't be conditional on performance. It can be conditional on number of games or number of plate appearances, but I never saw anything in this deal that indicated that was the case. They likely gave the Sox a pool of players from whom they can choose and none of them are likely to be exciting.

QUOTE (HickoryHuskers @ Aug 29, 2014 -> 09:29 AM) I don't know if age affects his driving ability, but when I was 18-25 I did the same drive home from Sox games dozens of times. He's pretty close to a Toll Road Exit so it's a pretty easy drive. Yeah but did you drink as much as Hawk does in the booth and then make that drive?

QUOTE (thxfrthmmrs @ Aug 29, 2014 -> 09:21 AM) Sounds like you want to measure run production based on wRC+ instead of RBI's Dunn wRC+: 114 - Good for 49 out of 152 total qualified player in the league. Puts him on even ground with Denard Span and Coco Crisp Gillaspie wRC+: 122 Sandoval WRC+: 116 And 2002 Bonds wRC+: 244 In summary, Dunn's run creation in 2014 is above league average compared to all qualified hitters, but it's considerably low for a middle of the order bat. This is how I would describe a "run producer" as well. I still prefer the term "good hitter." Also, against RHP - which is all I've ever advocated using him against - his wRC+ is 123. You prefer higher, but that'd be right around 51st in the majors. It'd be nice to have someone better hitting cleanup, or to add another big bat, but if he's hitting 5th or 6th for you against righties, you can still have a pretty good lineup.

QUOTE (Stan Bahnsen @ Aug 29, 2014 -> 07:31 AM) Way, way too early to pass any judgements on the kid, but this has me concerned a bit, or more. He just fits the profile of the type of hitter the Sox are oh-so-terrible at developing - great raw power, but having contact/approach/recognition issues that are virtually never properly taught/reinforced/improved by the system. Another guy, whose power the org is smitten with, who may or may not have the ability to improve, but it's not likely to happen here. And the list is long, sadly. Micker should ask for a trade. I'm worried about Hawkins going into next year. I assume he'll be in B'Ham (should I?). A few blips notwithstanding, he kind of limped home this season. It seems like the Carolina League figured him out as much as he did it. Hope I'm wrong, of course. Micker can't ask for a trade, and just because you've failed at something before (which many, many organizations fail at doing) doesn't mean you should suddenly stop trying. It takes 1 success out of 20 failures to make it worth it. I'm not worried at this point. He's 17.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Aug 29, 2014 -> 08:49 AM) Whatever other things he might have going on in his life, I think that is a solid statement. He's being paid an enormous amount of money, more in a month than I'll make in the next 20 years, if "living out of a suitcase" is that much of a problem for him then why is he going on road trips anyway? If he wanted a no trade clause he could have negotiated one or stayed in Washington the last 3 years. It just seems that, from what we've seen of the White Sox dealings with veterans in the past - guys like Contreras and Thome come to mind. I think this is a Reinsdorf thing. I don't know that that's the exact case, and maybe they just haven't gotten anything, just that it's a possibility.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Aug 29, 2014 -> 08:42 AM) If a guy won't put up with a 6 week road trip in order to get a shot at the playoffs he ought to just retire. Especially if you take into account how vastly overpaid he's been in the city where he currently is and the fact that he'd be doing that team a small favor by living out of a suitcase for an extra 2 weeks. I won't go any further than I have, but I think the issue is much more complex than that.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Aug 29, 2014 -> 08:21 AM) Ok, I'm officially agreeing with the NFL Owners that one of these preseason games needs to turn into a regular season game. People still get hurt during these games and they're a complete waste of time. f***ing Sammy Watkins

QUOTE (chisoxfan310 @ Aug 29, 2014 -> 08:30 AM) I'd be all for releasing him. We need space on the 40 and anyone who isn't going to figure into next years plans should just be cut to make room sooner. That's a good message to send to veteran players around the league - if you sign with us, and we fall out of contention, we might release you and force you to move if you'd like further work in baseball regardless of your production. --- It is certainly possible that they've received offers for Dunn and, upon approaching him about going to a contender, he's said no. Some people may view that as a weakness in a player, but I don't. Just because a guy doesn't want to move to a new city and try and get acclimated with new teammates for all of a month and a half doesn't mean he doesn't want to win. It just means that he believes his current comfort level is at its highest.

I think I would vote for Lyle Mouton.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Aug 28, 2014 -> 07:30 PM) Stone and Harrelson talk about "run producers" in the middle of the line-up all the time. I was listening to Stone on Hit & Run show a couple of weeks ago saying over and over again Conor isn't a run producer. If Conor's outproducing Adam, has a better OPS and yet isn't a run producer, that doesn't say much for Dunn's season. Or you can use another statistic like Runs Created or Runs Created/27. Who would rank 2nd and 3rd after Abreu in that category? I'm going to guess Gillaspie again, maybe Alexei....Dunn could be 3rd. I would argue Alexei's been better at producing runs this year for the White Sox than Adam. And Dunn can't run once he gets on base, so he has to drive them in or be driven in. Part of that's obviously a function of having good hitters behind you, and Viciedo and Flowers and Beckham all had long stretches where they struggled this year. If you're being paid $15 or 16 million and your ONLY job is to hit, and we're arguing whether a SS or Conor Gillaspie is outproducing you offensively (and that's not even taking into consideration WAR or Alexei's defensive contributions), that's not a good argument that will go in your favor. Essentially Dunn isn't even an effective hitter against LHP, so you're getting paid $20-22 million or so to hit, because there has to be another player (in this case Konerko and other bench players) to cover up for your deficiencies. I've been arguing this whole time and I still don't understand what exactly a "run producer" is. I mean, in 2004, Barry Bonds hit .362/.609/.812/1.422 with 45 homers but he only drove in 101 runs. He also scored 84 runs when he wasn't trotting slowly around the bases. But did he produce those runs or did someone else? So what is a run producer? I hate using the phrase because it can mean anything. I like using "good hitter" much more.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Aug 28, 2014 -> 03:20 PM) I'm still not sure how having such a "homer" working for your team helps in any other way other than public relations, like a Scott Merkin. Why would any other organization who's looking to trade for a Cubs' prospect do anything but take what he says with a grain of salt and actually perform a lot more due diligence to compensate for the fact that few prospects can ever live up to such constant hyping and media sensationalism. I think if you're qualified to evaluate prospects, it shouldn't matter if you have a bias like that. Those other teams have to do their own homework on guys too.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Aug 28, 2014 -> 03:36 PM) That theory would work a lot better if it was SaDDam. That would be too transparent.

QUOTE (greg775 @ Aug 28, 2014 -> 03:54 PM) I still don't really get a feel of what you mean by barreling up. You mean getting great wood on the ball or the ball exploding off the bat? Some guys just don't make contact enough. Yes, he means hitting the ball well with the barrel of the bat. Not hitting if off the end or the handle. If you consistently barrel the ball, you are showing good hand/eye coordination and, so long as contact is made, you should see a good hitter emerge. Gordon Beckham is a guy who did not barrel the ball well. He'd pop it up, ground out, and generally create fairly weak contact.

QUOTE (Jerksticks @ Aug 28, 2014 -> 02:46 PM) Why is adams' location of late such a secret like when the president's in town. Have you ever seen Barack Obama and Spencer Adams in the same place? Or maybe they are working together. I mean, Obama = Osama, and if you just take the "s" from the end of Adams and you move it to the front...SADAM Be careful America.

QUOTE (lasttriptotulsa @ Aug 28, 2014 -> 01:43 PM) Wait! What? Is that $1 trillion over the life of the contract or per year? I would certainly be willing to do the $25 billion per year, but $1 trillion per is just pushing it. $25 billion per year. I'm not crazy, only someone as good as Willie Bloomquist or Lyle Mouton is worth $1 trillion per year.

I think the White Sox should sign Adam Dunn to a 25 year deal worth $1 trillion.

QUOTE (StRoostifer @ Aug 28, 2014 -> 01:20 PM) I must admit, you guys make a lot of sense and I can appreciate the insightful discussion. This discussion has raised a few questions I'm really unsure about and I think you guys and others can help. 1- let's say Micah plays 2B and Semien plays LF in 2015. Where do they hit in the batting order? 2- where does Anderson play when he's ready? 1 is impossible to answer because we have no idea how Robin will set up the lineup. I'd guess Johnson would hit 2nd and Semien 7th or so, but that's a total guess. I'd probably prefer Johnson hitting 9th given his raw approach and Semien hitting 2nd due to his OBP, but it's hard to say. 2 is one where we cross that bridge when we get there. If he forces the Sox hand, I expect you'd see Johnson, Semien, or Sanchez dealt. It also assumes he sticks at SS or 2B which, while we've covered the errors caveat, there have been reports and suggestions in the past that he could be a guy who moves to the OF too. Rondon also figures into this as well because if he is as good as Simmons defensively, he's going to force the issue too if he continues to hit.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Aug 28, 2014 -> 12:43 PM) He's had 99 PA's with RISP, of which he has produced 32 RBI's. Alexei in 132 PA's with RISP has driven in 49 runs. Conor in 95 PA's has knocked in 38 runs. Both of those guys have done it at a higher rate, and I wouldn't call either of them "run producers". Because Adam Dunn is more likely to take a walk than those guys. The term "run producer" is incredibly vague and its definition is subject to however you want to define it. Adam Dunn gets on base and hits home runs. Thus, that's how he produces runs. Alexei Ramirez and Conor Gillaspie get hits on a consistent basis. That's how they produce runs. Against right handed pitching, I have no problem with Dunn hitting where he does. And your aforementioned response of Lyle Mouton is correct, 10 points for Gryffindor.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Aug 28, 2014 -> 12:16 PM) NEITHER. A hitter I would be confident in actually putting the ball in play, like a Victor Martinez. You ask "who is more likely to be a top 10 MVP candidate," between 3 players who are not likely to be MVPs of a league, which includes, at the bare minimum, 375 players, and I respond with neither because this is a true point. I ask "who would you rather see up in a game situation?" and give two options when disproving your notion that RBI is a meaningful statistic and, in making my very generalized point, you respond with Victor Martinez. Sweet, now if you can let Dombrowski and Ausmus know that we're just gonna use Victor Martinez in this situation which has nothing to do with him, that'd be awesome. Do you see the difference? OK, so who would you rather have up in that situation, Adam Dunn or Gordon Beckham? Remember that Gordon Beckham is going to have more RBI. Or a real life situation with real life numbers: who would you rather have up in that situation, Adam Dunn (50 RBI) or Aaron Hill (55 RBI)?

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Aug 28, 2014 -> 12:12 PM) Except he has had Abreu and Eaton in front of him for most of the year, along with Gillaspie, who are three of the top OBP guys in baseball. Eaton, Gillaspie, and Abreu have batted ahead of Dunn in 25 games this year. Abreu and Eaton have both hit in front of Dunn 61 times this year. Abreu has cleared the bases 33 times when batting in front of Adam Dunn. Adam Dunn is also on pace for about 500 plate appearances this season. He also does not hit for a very high average but hits a lot of home runs and walks a lot.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Aug 28, 2014 -> 11:54 AM) This is what the Sox got for 1 month of Jim Thome: http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/p...id=fuller001jus I would imagine the "haul" for Mr. Dunn would even be less. Along the same lines, this was what they got for Contreras http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/p...id=hynick001bra And they got Sean Bierman for Jesse Crain Basically, you get a guy that you wanted a closer look at and see if there's something there, and if not, then you move on.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Aug 28, 2014 -> 11:47 AM) Yes, because those numbers are so realistic for Dunn. Why even continue to count RBI's or batting average with RISP? They're irrelevant, right? Because it's "lucky/random" from season to season? Why even care about homers at USCF (for someone like Conor Gillaspie)? We only need to track SLG and OBP, yes? Go ahead and be Rick Hahn and sell/spin the return of Adam Dunn to the White Sox when nobody else in baseball wants him and he's not even sure about playing himself. I don't hate him irrationally, but I have ZERO confidence in Dunn being the solution at DH going forward in his mid 30's. Now if you said we would have Shields, Martin, Melky Cabrera and a closer, I could care less about Dunn coming back. But if you're going to label bringing him back as one of the KEY off-seasons moves for the White Sox, the fanbase is going to have a huge laugh about that and respond with even more malaise/apathy. I didn't say they are realstic, I'm just using the logic you used to show why it's a ridiculous premise. They are virtually irrelevant yes. They do it for traditions' sake. It's the same reason they keep track of W-L. Ultimately, RBI means nothing other than had ample opportunities to drive people in. Homers are different because a home run is the ultimate form of production and efficiency - there is no other hit in the entire game that guarantees a run than a home run. Ultimately, I want good hitters. A lot of times, guys who hit a lot of home runs are good hitters. Home runs absolutely are not irrelevant. Dunn shouldn't return a lot. He's a mid 30s player in the last month of his contract whose only real utility is his productivity against RHP, and even that is limited to some extent by his contact issues. There's still value there, and they should be able to save some money or get a semi-useful prospect out of the whole deal. I wouldn't expect confidence in Dunn into his mid 30s either, but on a 1-2 year deal, he isn't the worst option. I still don't see him re-signing with the White Sox. I could care less if they re-sign him, but I'd prefer they search for alternatives first. If he's the fat chick at the bar, then I have no problem with the Sox bringing him back. It's never going to be a key to the offseason and I've never even come close to saying anything like that. I was primarily criticizing you for using RBI as a justification for run-production when the correlation between hitters and RBI numbers is derivative of their approach at the plate, who they hit behind, and how many at bats they get. If Gordon Beckham hit behind prime Rickey Henderson and Kenny Lofton at the top of the lineup, and Adam Dunn hit behind Rey Ordonez and Mario Mendoza at the bottom of the lineup, who do you think will get more RBI? But, with 2 outs, a runner on 1B, and down by 2 in the bottom of the 9th, who would you prefer at the plate?