caulfield12

Finnegan hurts the most because Morales is their only lefty reliever right now, and he's been serviceable but not great. Manaea, Reed, Lamb, etc., none of them were ahead of Kyle Zimmer in the eyes of the front office, or their recently drafted Indiana kid in Ashe Russell. They lost a lot of their minor league pitching depth, but none of those guys were being counted on for 2016 other than Finnegan in the bullpen and the possibility of those other arms fighting for spots at the back end of the rotation. That will simply cost them money, but they were going to have to spend money on a free agent or make a trade anyway...and slot a guy after Volquez, Ventura, Duffy at the back end.

QUOTE (staxx @ Jul 28, 2015 -> 03:56 PM) MIN > Sox > CLEV > KC > DET in terms of 5-7 year outlook IMO Min has an incredible farm system. We have an extremely strong pitching rotation with some young core hitters. KC is blowing up their farm to win this year/next year, and will likely lose many pieces from their bullpen and Alex Gordon. They also have little in terms of long term pitching value. DET is aging extremely fast, saddled with huge contracts, and little farm talent. Who are the young core hitters? Eaton and Abreu, basically. Are you already counting Sanchez and Saladino? As far as the Royals go, they'll have Volquez, Duffy, Ventura, Kyle Zimmer, Medlen....a free agent signing, and probably one of Guthrie/Blanton/Chris Young/Hochevar as the long man but they're undoubtedly going to get another starter before next season. I'm not sure where this idea of losing many pieces of the bullpen is coming from, they'll still have their core set-up guys in Escobar and Davis. Davis will make $8 million in 2016, and $10 million in 2017 (those are club options with with a $2.5 million buyout in 2017). They have Herrera for next season at $2.55 million. Holland has been very shaky for the last two months and might be replaced. They are stuck with Jason Vargas' deal for 2016, but if he misses the full season, they'll get 35-40% back in insurance payments. There's a $10 million mutual option on Medlen with a $1 million buyout. Fwiw, their recent first rounder (Ashe Russell) was somewhere in the 90's, and then there's Mondesi, so still two Top 100 guys, barely.

QUOTE (Quinarvy @ Jul 28, 2015 -> 01:24 PM) I like Hector. I like Eaton. Eaton was better last year, Hector this year. Eaton makes more sense for a team carrying Sale, Quintana and Rodon. It worked out for everyone that wasn't the D-Backs. Unless you have AJ Pollock ready to play in Arizona, who they considered the better player.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 28, 2015 -> 01:32 PM) What matters is your scouting report said Finnegan and Duffy were the future. One of them is gone. One of them has been injured and struggled. And their starters have been pretty bad anyways. Burning out the bullpen. Simple regression. Having to pay players. The future is not so bright in KC. The cow town won't attract free agents unless they overpay. LOL, like they did with Volquez, Rios, Morales, Blanton, Chris Young and Medlen? (It seems in retrospect like the White Sox were the ones who overpaid their free agents.) I doubt you've even been to Kansas City, lol. It's almost like you have a personal animus towards the city. I could understand if it was Detroit or Omaha or Des Moines or some random midwestern city, but what happened to you there? Weren't you predicting last year that this was the last anyone would ever hear from the Royals, that they were one-hit wonders and the product of luck (mentioning the Wild Card comeback about 1000 times)?

QUOTE (ChiSox59 @ Jul 28, 2015 -> 01:30 PM) Shields helped the Royals turn the corner and Davis is a nearly unhittable bullpen piece, but I bet Dayton still regrets that trade a bit. A top rotation pitcher and a middle/back end type, plus a legit corner OF all at the league minimum. They probably wouldn't have had to made the trades they've made this past 3 days if it wasn't for that trade. Except there's no way in hell they would have gotten to the post-season or World Series with W.Myers and Odorizzi producing what they did in 2014. The acquisition of Shields changed the mindset of the entire pitching staff. Dayton Moore when he's 80 will never admit to anything but relief that it worked out, because his job was 100% on the line if they didn't reach the playoffs last year, not unlike AA in Toronto this season with the desperation Tulo move that's ten times worse IMO in terms of the long-term consequences for the Blue Jays.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 28, 2015 -> 01:27 PM) How's Medlin doing Royals boy? Hochevar isn't doing squat. That bullpen has been burning at both ends and it will catch up. And just wait until it is time to pay those guys. Better win now Royals. It's going to be a very short ride. On the bright side, when they get back to their losing ways, you will have the greatest beat writers in baseball to feed you BS you can eat up. The Royals have two more seasons after this, just like the Tigers had their four. The Twins are shaping up to be the team to beat in future years, but KC will be the favorites heading into next season. They're a couple of pitchers (starter/reliever) away from being really dangerous. The Indians still have the best overall (future) rotation, although the White Sox will challenge that if Fulmer/Montas emerge as well.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 28, 2015 -> 01:07 PM) Oh, the TV ratings. They gave up 5 arms in 2 KW moves, Finnegan, a guy you said was one of the greatest prospects in the game, and a top 60 prospect for rentals. History has shown deadline acquistions rarely determine the WS outcome, so trading 5 prospects and burning out your bullpen isn't a recipe for sustained success. If the Royals can't re-sign Gordon, they won't be able to get Cueto or Zobrist. This is their shot. If they blow it, it will be back to the drawing board. Apparently the Reds agree. Who has come up the same season he was drafted, (pitched in the College World Series in the case of Finnegan) and then the MLB World Series? Cincy was convinced he had a future as a starter, that's all that matters, in the end. And they liked Reed a lot. With Lamb, anyone who's had TJ surgery once is a risk, but he was a huge prospect at one time, like Drabeck.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 28, 2015 -> 01:07 PM) Oh, the TV ratings. They gave up 5 arms in 2 KW moves, Finnegan, a guy you said was one of the greatest prospects in the game, and a top 60 prospect for rentals. History has shown deadline acquistions rarely determine the WS outcome, so trading 5 prospects and burning out your bullpen isn't a recipe for sustained success. If the Royals can't re-sign Gordon, they won't be able to get Cueto or Zobrist. This is their shot. If they blow it, it will be back to the drawing board. They don't want Zobrist for next year, they need him for these 2 1/2 months. Simple. Back to the drawing board? If you're living under a rock, they've added guys like Madson, Hochevar (back from injury) and Medlen to take some of the pressure off that bullpen. They're unlikely to sign Cueto or Price, but then I never thought Glass would okay spending $55 million on Gil Meche a decade ago or bringing in Jose Guillen, either. You can guarantee they will bring in SOMEONE for their starting rotation before next season. The irony is that we're talking about all these moves not paying off and "blowing up" if they don't win the World Series. This is the Royals, remember? Two or three seasons ago they were a laughingstock..."we keep hearing about all these young prospects, blah blah...they screwed up the franchise by trading Wil Myers, etc." I'm sure if I went back to the thread on the day Myers/Odorizzi/Montgomery were traded for Davis and Shields, it will be filled with those critical of the move and saying the Royals were nuts. And Odorizzi and Montgomery (with Seattle) was a big price to pay, but Myers has never come close to being the cornerstone player he was projected to be.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 28, 2015 -> 12:04 PM) I thought you were a big advanced stats guy? Santiago's FIP,xFIP, and SIERRA don't peg him as much of a stud. Did he make the All-Star team or not? Was he the lone (token) representative from the Angels? I think not.

QUOTE (SoCalSox @ Jul 28, 2015 -> 11:58 AM) I think Norris & either Pompey or Pentecost and a smaller prospect for Quintana would be a very good return. Still not keen on the idea of moving a top 20 pitcher, though. They were supposed willing to give up a package including Norris, Hoffman and Pompey for Carlos Carrasco but it fell apart. That's no longer possible, but it would be something like Stroman, Pentecost and Pompey for Q.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 28, 2015 -> 12:48 PM) Hasn't history shown that deadline deals rarely pay off? KC did get Cueto and Zobrist, probably about as good as they can do, at the cost of 5 arms. If they don't win the WS, they pretty much shot their wad. How's that? You really don't think they are capable of taking the $100 million they were going to have to spend on Alex Gordon and investing it in their pitching staff, which is basically the same thing they did coming into this season....spreading the James Shields/Aoki money around to Morales, Chris Young, Alex Rios, Joe Blanton, Hochevar and Kris Medlen? They'll need to add another starting pitcher before next season, but they still have Kyle Zimmer and Medlen as options, just to name two. They're selling out quite a few of their games and have the best tv ratings of any team in their regional market. With Volquez, Duffy, Ventura and some filler for the 4-5 spots (Guthrie/Blanton/Young/Vargas), they're sitting in a decent position. Certainly they'll add another starter next off-season, although it probably won't be Price or Cueto (but you never know). Most importantly, they still have that all in their primes core of cost-controlled Lorenzo Cain, Moustakas, Escobar, Hosmer and Sal Perez. In all likelihood, Mondesi, Jr., replaces Infante, but he's not ready yet. They still have the best bullpen. With Gordon out and Mondesi, Jr., not ready, they made the most logical move/s to give them the best possible chance to get back to the World Series again this year, without precluding them from competing for at least the next two, if not three seasons.

QUOTE (Stan Bahnsen @ Jul 28, 2015 -> 12:42 PM) If KW is still "in charge" of all the personnel decisions, this situation is truly f***ed up. Why would Hahn not know this would be the way it is with JR in charge, and KW still in the FO? Hahn's been courted by other teams and waited for his turn here, presumably. Ultimately, this again falls on JR's desire to keep everyone in the family happy, and letting much needed clear delineation of responsibilities go to s***. And should KW be involved with a trade to TOR if he's heading there in a few months? I don't like that conflict at all. KW needs to move on, for everyone's sake, but this clusterf*** is JR's fault, not KW's. Ironic that we raided Toronto for Paddy, later Toronto discovered they wanted KW to run things, JR denied permission and now we're about to make a huge trade with them? Especially when you go back to the infamous Sirotka for David Wells fiasco, which I guess has been forgotten by all but Keith Law. Sounds like Hoyer/Cubs time all over again.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 28, 2015 -> 12:28 PM) Hinch was 84-123 in a year and a half as the DBacks manager. Kirk Gibson, as old school as can be, took his place and they won 94 games the next season. Gee, now you're making your own point. Robin Ventura inexperienced and no talent...bad record. The same thing happened with Hinch, who was undercut constantly by his front office, unlike Robin who has received almost four seasons of "on the job training." Ventura has gotten nothing but votes of confidence, faith and loyalty. As you said yourself, Joe Torre/Bobby Cox/Tony LaRussa couldn't have won with those teams. It's funny you use the Hinch example because he was brought in to replace a manager who'd been fired after a 12-17 mark to begin 2009, and you say those changes never work, right? He actually improved the 2009 team, with a .436 winning percentage for the remainder of the year. The Diamondbacks ended the 2010 season with a 65–97 record. This poor performance was blamed on an extremely weak bullpen, which finished with a collective 5.47 ERA, and a lack of offense which was punctuated by the team setting the single season strikeout record.[19] and ending the season with 1,529. wikipedia Managers don't matter, right? Robin Ventura, Cox, Torre and LaRussa would have had the same exact record with that bunch, right? Basically, Gibson took a team to 94-68 and turned it back into a disaster in the span of 3 seasons and completely wore out his welcome with his gruff, aggressive, "take no prisoners" authoritarian style. In the following two seasons, the Diamondbacks were exactly 81-81. This season (2014), though, they've been pretty awful from start to finish, currently sitting with a 63-96 record, the worst in the majors by three full games. So he had one good/surprising year and then ran them into the ground. And Hinch doesn't get credit for anything he's done with the Astros this year, which has been even more impressive than the Cubs/Wine Vintner Half Magician Maddon?

QUOTE (raBBit @ Jul 28, 2015 -> 11:02 AM) Caulfield's Deadline 2015: Battle of the Beat Writers LOL. You're well on your way to a future in the business. Try not to be so prickly, ala Chris Rongey. The best quality of a sportswriter is someone who invites you into a conversation, shares knowledge and insight and does it in a way that makes you feel uplifted and not insulted or condescended to, for example, the way Joe Posnanski writes, addressing everyday life topicality as it intersects and sometimes collides with the economics of modern day sports. He never writes to shock, insult or draw page views... Try listening to Vin Scully doing Dodger games.

QUOTE (raBBit @ Jul 28, 2015 -> 11:39 AM) Never praised Preller. Never brought up scandals or Nestor Molina. Never cited LaRussa/Stewart as "sabrematricians." Not sure how you found a way to include AJ Hinch. Good stuff though, caulfield. That's a big difference from what you see in Oakland with Beane having Zaidi (now Forst) as his side kick, different than Theo and Jed on the North Side and different than Jon Daniels and Preller before Preller left, Friedman and Zaidi in LA, LaRussa and Stewart in Arizona, and on and on and on. So these are all examples of what you want the White Sox front office to be, or not? Try to be clear. You never quite spell things out clearly, but make intimations and suggestions and throw out things but it SEEMED you were using the above combinations as "positive" and not negative examples of successful front office partnerships? How is LaRussa and Stewart such an example? That's more like KW and Buddy Bell than anything. Not sure what the DBacks have ever done recently to merit much praise as an organization. Hinch was included as an example of someone the DBacks kicked out of the organization who is the quintessential modern day baseball exec/manager with high level analytical abilities but the modern day touch with players. Basically, the best of Tony LaRussa without the pricky personality, egomania and drunk driving.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Jul 28, 2015 -> 12:06 PM) His road OPS this year is .768. That is higher than everyone on the current White Sox other than Abreu and Eaton, and Eaton is at .769. If you could guarantee he could hit at that rate for the White Sox (as he transitioned to the AL and a set of unfamiliar pitchers), it would be "okay" but certainly not a steal. The thing I'm more concerned with is his abysmal OPS numbers in August and September from 2012-2014. Seems like he has a history of fading down the stretch, and/or he's been injured and not playing at 100% in the 2nd half of those seasons. Who can pull up his defensive ratings this year? If you're going to push Avi out of RF, the numbers better make sense. Granted, it's hard to be MUCH worse than Avi or Hanley Ramirez. Once upon a time, CarGo was a Gold Glove caliber fielder, but what about the last 2-3 seasons?

QUOTE (iamshack @ Jul 28, 2015 -> 11:54 AM) Care to elaborate? No one will deny the guy has warts, but with what you've seen from this offense, are you comfortable w/o adding a bat? If you aren't, what bat do you think we're going to get in this market? We need to luck out again like we did for 3 weeks with Youkilis in 2012. A team who's being forced to make a move with a popular veteran...and willing to dump salary for a guy going into FA. Middlebrooks was emerging that season (obviously it didn't last) and the Boston front office was backed into a corner. Of course, we didn't get such great results from Orlando Hudson (one game winner I remember, or was it 2?), Myers and Liriano, who of course has gone on to become a much better pitcher in the NL, away from the AL Central.

The better question is can the White Sox afford to take on $42.3 million in salary commitments (including two months this year) without it having a negative impact on their future competitive window? Would we be happy if KW claimed him off waivers "for free," ala Alex Rios? One obvious thing it does is force Avisail Garcia or LaRoche out of the picture, although some are going to argue that Gonzalez needs to DH part-time to prevent more injuries. That's an awful expensive DH "combo meal," although we're not unfamiliar with that after Dunn and now LaRoche. Fwiw, Cargo is just 12/74 with an incredible 398 OPS against LHP this season. What does Adam LaRoche not do? Hit LHP. So I suppose you could sub Avi in against LHP, but you're still going to have a terrible match-up with either Cargo or LaRoche in there, one way or the other. Over 421 AB's from 2012-2014, he's a much better 765 against LHP, but there's always the home/road splits consideration, the injuries and the fact that he'd be coming from the NL to the AL, so that initial adjustment that never seems to go well for the White Sox. As a plus, he's 29 years old, but with that injury history, you almost have to treat him like he's 32-33.

QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Jul 28, 2015 -> 09:24 AM) Word out of LA is that Puig never asked anything about the trade and is denying this story in general. Basically, he was upset people thought he was concerned about being traded and talked to the front office. Yesterday on the radio, the local sportscasters were hilarious at how little they value Puig. They wanted to trade him for Craig Kimbrel or Aroldis Chapman. Castrovince had him all the way down at 17 in the top 25 players 25 and younger. No Rodon, either. Pretty crazy to put Machado that high when he's been so up and down the last couple of years. Just as it's pretty crazy IMO to have Puig that far down after four months of 2015, after the numbers he put up in his first two seasons. He also has Joc Pederson ahead of Puig, and Nolan Arenado way too low. Then Fernandez at 6 when he has just come back from TJ surgery? Mookie Betts ahead of all those young pitchers with the Mets, for example? No Gallo. Bogaerts is finally hitting again (but limited) power and he's ahead of Rodon? http://m.mlb.com/news/article/139014786

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 28, 2015 -> 11:10 AM) To be fair...borderline all-star/replacement this year isn't half bad. Actually, logic and the law of averages says that 50% of our predictions won't work out, 25% will be "meh" and if we're lucky we'll be really right about 10-25% of time. Otherwise, all of those baseball writers who predict/project the final standings at the beginning of the season would quickly be out of a job. With Greene, I never had even seen the guy pitch and that was said out of irrational frustration with everything Dombrowski does working out for the Tigers (such as JD Martinez becoming an All-Star, exactly the kind of player we could have used and would have saved us the money we spent on Melky or at the very least provided insurance for Avisail Garcia busting). I also predicted Jeff Banister would be a fine major league manager because at least I had firsthand experience working with him for a year...and while the Rangers have slipped back a bit, I don't think anyone projected them to still be part of the wild card race at this point in the season with so many injuries to that rotation, and for them to be shaping up as the preseason favorites to challenge the Astros in 2016 if they can acquire Cole Hamels or another frontline starter like a Price or Cueto. thanks, douglas

QUOTE (ChiSox59 @ Jul 28, 2015 -> 11:23 AM) Puig is cancer, has s***ty numbers this year, and I think there is more value in Quintana's contract. Quintana is signed for two additional years (afforadable team options) when Puig will already be gone via FA. And Puig is more expensive than Quintana for the next 3.5 years. I don't hate the idea, but I want more than Puig back for Q, not a 1-1, and I think a package of prospects would be better than trading for a guy that widely known as a complete clown. Because acquiring expensive veterans like CarGo, Ethier, Reyes or Tulo that further hamstring the organization from a financial standpoint works as a better model? Sometimes you have to roll the dice with young talent. The bust rate is high, look at Beckham, Viciedo and now it's likely Avi is heading in that direction as well. With Puig, you have a track record of results in 2013 and 2014, and he's only 24 years old. Frankly, I'm not sure that Robin Ventura is the right guy to control him, but I do have some confidence with Abreu and Ramirez around (and even moreso if we brought in Guerrero as well).

QUOTE (raBBit @ Jul 28, 2015 -> 10:31 AM) I agree with DA's points too and him and I have been beating that drum for a while but I don't agree on your conclusions. How does Rick Hahn not having full control take away from his potential as an executive? He's a modern baseball man. KW is not and frankly acts irrationally for an attempt at a quick win. Besides, there are very few front offices where one guy has full control. The difference between our front office is that there are two guys running it and they are on different ends of the spectrum when it comes to operations. That's a big difference from what you see in Oakland with Beane having Zaidi (now Forst) as his side kick, different than Theo and Jed on the North Side and different than Jon Daniels and Preller before Preller left, Friedman and Zaidi in LA, LaRussa and Stewart in Arizona, and on and on and on. Besides, this type of structure allows for them to both be insulated. What more would you expect from the most loyal org in all of baseball? I'm not sure how much you want to be praising Preller when he was cited for ethics violations and has done a much better job than KW on his worst day could have done quickly running that franchise aground. Of course, KW had his own scandal in LA, with Dave Wilder, depending how much of that you want to blame on him for being the chief executive in charge at the time, and occasionally showing a lack of insight about specific prospects like Nestor Molina. http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/2...-latin-america/ I also think that citing LaRussa/Stewart as being sabrematricians or anything but non-"old school guys" isn't quite accurate. AJ Hinch got run out there on a rail once upon a time and many believe he was the perfect mixture of a modern baseball guy in terms of mixing the two sides, and it's certainly paying off in spades for the Astros this season. Time will tell. If you replaced Buddy Bell with someone more in touch with the modern game, then the White Sox would be fine, when/if they decide who to ultimately run things at the top.

QUOTE (raBBit @ Jul 27, 2015 -> 10:10 AM) Caulfield was calling him a Cy Young candidate in April. LOL. And Rabbit has been 100% right with all of his predictions, LOL. Should I bump the thread where I predicted Hector Santiago to be a future stud/starter after his first relief outing with the White Sox? If there had been a Cy Young vote in April, Simon and Greene both would have been up there.

The only sportswriter who really likes this deal for Toronto is Tracy Ringolsby, who, ironically, wrote for the Rocky Mountain News for a long, long time. Don't count out Tinoco, either. In their minds Colorado, got a cost-controlled frontline starter and potential ace in Hoffman, a future closer in Castro (basically the equivalent of Frankie Montas) and another intriguing arm in Tinoco with big stuff. Considering they just wiped out almost $50 million in salary commitments and SHOULD be able to dump Reyes on someone who gets desperate for an experienced SS in the next month (waiver claim), it's win-win. As someone noted they have two top SS prospects in their pipeline, one in AAA and one just recently drafted. Tinoco is a very savvy addition to this trade for the Rockies. He’s much further away than Hoffman or Castro, but his stuff is similar as he has the potential to have two above-average or better pitches and he has a clean delivery with some remaining projection. Tinoco has what what one scout described as an idea pitcher’s frame at 6-foot-4, and a few pounds more than his listed 190. He pitches off a 92-97 mph fastball that comes out of the hand easy with very little noticeable effort. He has shown the ability to maintain 94-95 mph deep into games recently. His slider gives him a second above-average pitch as he has demonstrated the ability to locate it in the zone or bury it when he gets ahead in the count. His changeup isn’t as developed but he’ll flash an average offering every now and then. http://www.baseballamerica.com/majors/trad...ove-tulowitzki/

QUOTE (Quinarvy @ Jul 28, 2015 -> 01:33 AM) No more Hoffman? My desire to deal with the Jays just about died. That and the fact that they're co-competitor 1A (along with the Twins) for that WC spot. It would be pretty unusual for a team to make a trade that will be perceived as diminishing their own window of opportunity, vs. a trade to the Dodgers, Cardinals, Cubs, etc.