caulfield12

http://www.mlbdailydish.com/2016/7/10/1214...ors-yasiel-puig Dodgers open to trading Puig, but must receive MLB pieces back in return http://www.mlbdailydish.com/2016/7/8/12132...hner-de-la-rosa Looking at this article, you'd think the White Sox actually have MORE motivation to make a move at the deadline, because they have two aces lined up for the post-season in Sale/Q...and both teams pretty much have to make the decision to begin rebuilding or go all-in at the All-Star Break in 2017. How desperate are both owners to get to the post-season??

But it's almost impossible to separate the two because development (let's just say, skill refinement) often happens at the major league level...around top flight coaches like Don Cooper or Joe Maddon. Instead of saying who HAS developed and should take credit for it, try the opposite (WHO HASN'T): Soler, that's a hard one to decide, because the major league results are inconclusive so far due to injuries. Let's say call him a disappointment so far, but no better or worse than, let's say, Dayan Viciedo or Avi Garcia. One thing that has become pretty true across the board is almost all Cuban hitters (other than Cespedes) are having trouble adjusting back to pitching adjustments made to them (see Abreu and Puig, Rusney Castillo, etc.) Every hitter, though, is unique. You can't say the Red Sox are GREAT at developing talent simply because Moncada becomes a star...as everyone saw that coming, right? Almora, based on draft position...perhaps, but jury's still out again. Contreras....looks pretty good so far. Schwarber...not much development they had to do. But they picked him MUCH higher than almost anyone in baseball had him on their boards. If you want to argue AGAINST the Cubs being good at developing talent, the argument's centered around Soler, Almora and Javier Baez, although Baez certainly has been an overall positive (despite the occasional defensive misplay, which comes from being moved all around and never getting comfortable with one position, see Semien, Marcus.) Vogelbach gets mentioned a lot, and he's become a solid prospect in their system even though he has been doubted at every turn...of course, the obvious problem is there's nowhere for him to play. Addison Russell, can you blame their minor league system when he was barely in it...and no, making the All-Star team doesn't mean they've succeeded, but clearly he can play very good defense and if his bat comes around at all, he's going to be a consistent 3-4 WAR provider. Concepcion was doubted by everyone in baseball when they "overpaid" for him, and he made it to the big leagues. Jimenez and Torres have developed from raw/toolsy athletes into consensus Top 20-30 MILB prospects, if not higher. Edwards has looked REALLY good out of the bullpen so far, and has impressive stuff...he's already moved up to the Nate Jones 8th inning role for Maddon. At worst, you can say they made some mistakes with Soler and Almora (and that's not even for sure, just has taken LONGER to develop than previously projected) and Baez still has the contact issues, but it's almost impossible to make an assessment at this exact moment in time unless we look at all these prospects from the perspective of 2021 looking backwards. Finally, how do they not get credit for Kyle Hendricks?

Then you can add Torres and Jimenez (so far)...Almora has spent a ton of time in their system, although he hasn't proven anything yet. If you're the Cubs, the only thing that matters is having multiple streams of talent to feed the system, which they do via trades, under/over 21 Latin American signings/international free agents and drafting. Now, all that SAID, if Arrieta breaks down at some point in July or August, they're going to be completely screwed because Lester and Lackey might not be good enough (at least as they are now) to be the linchpins of a playoff rotation. A month ago, as a Cubs' fan, you would have said, "we got this!" because they looked THAT good, with the caveat it was mostly against inferior competition. Let's keep reminding ourselves....2006 Chicago White Sox, 26 games over .500 at the All-Star Break. Now I highly doubt the Pirates and Cards are going to go all Twins/Tigers from that year, but stranger things have happened if you removed their #1 starter from the equation.

Has someone sent the memo to Ventura? The problem is that as abysmal as he has been in non-save situations, who does he have that he can trust outside of Jones/Duke and possibly Jennings right now (with a 4 run lead)?

I would go with Q, Sale, Eaton and Anderson...Frazier's hard to argue for, because of his batting average and "decent" OPS.

DEVELOPMENT ISN'T THE KEY. IT'S IDENTIFYING TALENT...especially if it's undervalued. SEE Quentin, Floyd, Danks, Alexei, Quintana, Abreu, Eaton, Nate Jones, Addison Reed, Hector Santiago, Sergio Santos, etc. The problem is we haven't been very good at it, by and large, since the 2008 playoff team...and going on 7-8 years now.

Haha...that's a good way to put it. Better mediocre team. Brooks Boyer, get right on that one for the second half...will rank right up there with the busted THE WILL TO WIN campaign that never even got off the ground because of team play. And really, a lot of that's due to Frazier, Cabrera and now Tim Anderson...and Eaton's overall game improving.

http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/pitching/_/year/2015/sort/saves Since we're playing the SV/SVO card, how does that excuse 2015? You have to go all the way down to Fernando Rodney at #31 in total saves to find ANYONE in the top 30 with SEVEN blown saves. Robertson is all alone right there in that category. You can blame the Sox defense all you want, but he hasn't been one of the Top 5 or even Top 10 closers in all of baseball since we signed him. By salary we should be getting ELITE.

Morneau didn't play at Charlotte or for BIRM. What happened? Thought he was going to get one final day of AB's on Sunday? Sent him home to spend time with his family one day early...before Friday's action started back up?

The Cubs can get away with trading Baez, Edwards, Jr., Almora, Jr. or McKinney and still not really impact their future core. Soler busting isn't really going to end up having much of an impact with the resources they're playing around with there. (And that's not even considering Schwarber as well and what they do with him.) I'm not sure you could get Jimenez and Torres if you offered our entire system (pre 2016 draft). Even then, not sure. Vogelbach would be our #4-6 prospect and can't even sniff the Top 10 over there. (And, let's be honest, EVERYONE in the entire world knew a 99-100 MPH fastball was coming there...but that bat speed anticipating it was still quite impressive.)

Seeing why it's not obvious that Burdi's set to just come up and dominate with Stanek's struggles. And the Cubs...what an embarrassment of riches, between Gleyber Torres and Eloy Jimenez...talk about bat speed and hand-eye coordination. Obviously whoever ranked him first coming out of that international class (and it was pretty universal) wasn't off on their projection.

Moncada is the man. I'm not even 100% sure the Red Sox would trade him for Quintana...let alone adding Benitendi. At some point, they'll have to replace Pedroia. And it's not like Travis Shaw is going to stand in his way at 3B. The offer will be Benitendi and other "famous" Red Sox prospect names at the lower levels. Maybe Owens is another.

And Cain will come back from his hamstring. Davis will be back. Adding those two will have more of an impact than Burdi/Morneau/Austin Jackson. KC's not going to sit by idly when they've had so many problems with Medlen and Chris Young pooping the bed. Kennedy's been a bit better than expected, Volquez and Ventura worse than expected. Duffy has essentially kept that rotation in it to this point (along with a boatload of unranked/rated minor league prospects few had ever heard of before 2016). With Morales now showing he's likely to be a solid player, and those crazy home/road record splits, you can be sure they're not going to tear anything down with 1 1/2 years left in their window. Those decisions will come next year at the ASB. THAT said, I'm not even sure optimistic KC fans think they have what it takes to hang with the AL East, Indians, Rangers (who will surely make another move or two on the pitching front) and Astros. They will either add or stand pat. And Detroit seems to be taking the position that what they have is who you go to war with (also betting on JD Martinez to spark the line-up upon returning from the DL)...and hoping for Norris and Boyd and Sanchez to figure things out (but also having to watch Fulmer's innings in Aug/September.)

Or, more likely, saddle themselves with yet another big veteran contract for a guy coming over from the AL in his early to mid 30's who wets the bed in 2017 and limits our options for improving the team/financial flexibility...forcing more rebuild talk going into 2018, and the same old arguments about how the White Sox would go from 25th in MLB in attendance to 28th-30th and potentially the attendance subsidies guaranteed by the State of Illinois clicking in (and all the public scrutiny that would draw, giving taxpayer money to a team worth a billion dollars while state pensions and school teachers can't be paid out).

http://mlb.mlb.com/kc/download/announcemen...oyals012406.pdf There's the Royals' lease agreement (revisited in 2006). http://www.810whb.com/common/more.php?m=49&post_id=1001 It wasn't good for the taxpayers, but isn't nearly as onerous as the USCF one in terms of parking revenue and the attendance guarantees...and a lot of the money was used for improvements in what is now one of the older stadiums in baseball (early 1970's).

Yes. We might have a slightly better record, but our positioning against TOR/BOS/HOU isn't as strong as it was against BALT/MIN last year at this time. We also had a seven game winning streak and were about the same number of games back in the wild card race last year at the end of July and stood pat. The only difference is that 23 7/9ths - 10 start where we were up 6/7/8 games on the rest of the AL Central (contending teams). Makes perfect sense Burdi, Morneau and Jackson would be our "acquisitions" since Burdi represents the return on not dealing Shark last year at this time.

1. TOR/BOS +11 3. HOU +7 2 GB 4. DET +3 4 GB 5. CHW/KCR +2 4 1/2 GB 7. SEA +1 5 GB 8. NYY E 5 1/2 GB Seven teams ahead of us, not TWO. You're not counting the divisional leaders like you did for last year's standings? In terms of their positioning vs. Boston, Toronto and Houston (THIS YEAR), those three teams are clearly MUCH better than LAA/Minnesota at the top this time last year. Toronto added Price/Tulo and the Rangers added Hamels and both those teams took off from the same relative position as the White Sox. We're a few games over .500 instead of a few games below .500, but there's a lot more to contend with at the top of the race. Plus, Boston and Houston are very well stocked financially and prospects-wise to make improvements via the trade market. Boston's already gone out and gotten Ziegler. Toronto is raking in the attendance, so they'll certain do something (their prospects are down because of all the trades) in terms of adding on veteran salary/expiring contracts. No choice when you have so much competition in the AL East and everybody wants to avoid a one shot and you're out elimination game. Wild Card Standings Last Five Days of July, 2015 JULY 27 LAA +12 MIN +6 3. TOR/Balt E 3 GB 5. TB -1 3 1/2 GB 6. CHW/TEX -4 5 GB 8. CLE -6 6 GB JULY 28 LAA +11 MIN +5 3. BAL +1 2 GB 4. TB E 2 1/2 GB 5. TOR -1 3 GB 6. CHW -3 4 GB 7. TEX -5 5 GB 8. CLE -7 6 GB JULY 29 LAA +10 MIN +4 3. BAL +2 1 GB 4. TOR E 2 GB 5. TB -1 2 1/2 GB 6. CHW -2 3 GB 7. TEX -4 4 GB 8. CLE -8 6 GB JULY 30th LAA +9 MIN +5 3. TOR/BAL +1 2 GB 5. CHW/TB -1 3 GB 7. TEX -3 4 GB 8. CLE -7 6 GB JULY 31st LAA +8 MIN +4 3. TOR/BAL +2 1 GB 5. CHW/TB/TEX -2 3 GB 8. CLE -6 5 GB

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 10, 2016 -> 08:35 AM) Neutral? Nice try. It wasn't because they resigned Peavy that they traded for Eaton. Peavy was long gone. Maybe they should have traded Q for Headley. He was the big 3B at the time. And if we really made a stretch and said it was neutral, why do you remember it now as "ill advised"? In one post ip you said they had no clear direction, now this one says they were showing a direction. LOL. Whatever you do, you should stop complaining about trading Semien. In that thread, you mentioned it was a trade that HAD to be made. The Tigers certainly know what the are doing. They are all in, the Sox at the kiddie table and it shows, a record an entire half a game better.you weren't done I. The Peavy thread. This didn't appear "neutral " It's one of those cases of selective memory with Peavy. A lot of our gripes were about his record against the Tigers, particularly the 6-0 blown game, some of his starts down the stretch where he was "so-so" or okay instead of pitching like an ace. Of course, the counter-argument is that he's no longer the 2007 version, has diminished stuff, has had to adapt and learn to be a pitcher rather than just a thrower...THAT previous Cy Young glimmering version will never return again, any more (and I see some are still holding out hope that he'll bounce back into the mid 90's with his FB again). Statistically, there's no arguing with his stats, as an overall body of work, from 2012. And there's no arguing that if he put up those same numbers the next two years, the White Sox would have made a very sound investment. And then there will always be those who appreciate his "manning up" and coming back from a first of its kind surgery as quickly as he did, instead of packing it in and collecting a paycheck. The whole team just ran out of gas (Sale, Peavy, Quintana, the rookies), we had the injuries to deal with constantly throughout the 2nd half...most of us were not as angry as Greg about the "collapse" as it was pretty predictable to those who follow both the Tigers and Sox closely. (That said, I believed we would actually take it after winning the final Tigers game and then again when Dunn hit the homer to win another one in the following days). Yes, they pretty much had to give up Semien because they'd already established they didn't trust him and weren't going to give him another chance at a starting job...and they certainly weren't going to let him play SS at the big league level. The same exact thing happened to Micah Johnson. Young player comes up and struggles over 50-150 at-bats. Organization cuts bait on him or "sells high" (Trayce Thompson, although he might be the only position player who outperformed expectations in the past decade). It's surprising Carlos Sanchez and Saladino are still around for this year, actually. As it was, they still weren't ready to give Saladino the starting job, hence bringing in Rollins for two months.

http://www.spotrac.com/mlb/rankings/salary/closer/ Slightly behind Aroldis Chapman and Craig Kimbrel for 3rd highest paid closer in baseball at $11 million per year. Tied with Papelbon. Unless we're REALLY going to go for it this year, they should get a prospect/s back (say Baez or Almora, Jr.), invest $10 million in another hitter or starting pitcher and use Burdi/Fulmer/Hansen/Danish/Stephens behind Nate Jones in the bullpen. Then they can turn around and flip Nate Jones in the same way Billy Beane does it...or the White Sox attempted to do with Sergio Santos and Addison Reed. It would be shocking if the Cubs agreed to give up Schwarber OR Contreras for Robertson. Not even Robertson and Nate Jones would get them BOTH of those two. They'd offer Vogelbach and we'd counter with either 1) Baez, 2) Almora or 3) McKinney. Maybe Almora and Carl Edwards, Jr.

Said all of those fans of Bobby Jenks at the end of his career, especially Greg. Just win baby, I remember quite clearly. Because he was the opposite of a sabre/advanced stats dream at the end of his Sox career. He was just barely surviving by the skin of his teeth, his physical health was deteriorating and his stuff was degrading over time as well. I don't think anyone would equate that with being a great closer. And that conveniently doesn't count the game Robertson blew on May 28th...because the lead he blew was SO freakin' large it didn't even qualify as a save opportunity...that's how bad it was, as you can't pitch your way into a save situation for yourself. You can count it as two, but it's three to the rest of Sox fans, a statistical oddity or anomaly of historical proportions that weekend.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 10, 2016 -> 08:19 AM) Oh really? Here is what you had to post in the Peavy extension thread. Good news, not quite great, because you wonder about all the wear and tear that Robin and Cooper put him through, sometimes needlessly. On the other hand, it does afford us the luxury of packaging some guys like Quintana/Santiago (one of the two, probably), Thornton, Crain, Reed (possibly) to see what we can get back for 3B and possibly catcher. The biggest question marks are: 1) Does DeAza go back to CF? 90% chance, unless another starter is traded, like Rios, for a new CFer. 2) Who's the closer? 90% chance it's Reed, at least to start out. 3) AJ, Tyler or a new catcher not on the radar screen? 4) 3B And we did end up packaging/trading Santiago, just not for a 3B....it was for Eaton. They did trade Addison Reed for a 3B (just not a good one). I don't think I gave it either praise or derision, it was more of a neutral statement...and Avi Garcia as the centerpiece wasn't exactly much of a return, because the Tigers/Dombrowski know what they're doing. They managed to bring back Fulmer, Norris and Boyd in one calendar year to replenish their rotation because DD understood their situation quite clearly last year, and traded Cespedes and Price. The Tigers ended up with the far better player (defensively alone, he's worth 2.0-2.5 WAR per year) in Jose Iglesias. Good news, in the sense that it seemed they were trying to make an effort to choose some type of direction...not really due to being 100% sold on Peavy himself as a starting pitcher going forward.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 10, 2016 -> 07:42 AM) His stats are out of whack because of 2 appearances covering a total of one inning. One it mattered, the other it didn't. He is one of the best closers in baseball. You have no idea what you are talking about. James Shields is one of the best starters in baseball if we just ignore 4-5 of his starts. Should we throw out all of his ER's because he only pitched like 3-4 innings total in them? The entire point of baseball for a pitcher is to record outs...therefore, when you don't succeed at that and keep allowing baserunners, of course the appearance/s will be limited, unless Ventura just left said pitcher in an unlimited amount of time. Do you blame Ventura, then, for those two appearances, moreso than Robertson? John Danks as well. Statistics don't lie...over the course of half a season, they paint a fairly decent picture. If we took all the blown saves away from each of those closers, wouldn't they all be close to elite? How many 1-2-3 innings has he had this year in closing situations, compared to the others? Or that's an unfair way to look at his job/responsibility as well...?

Oh, he's also better than Kevin Jepsen and Huston Street...yay! Cause for celebration.

http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/pitching/_/sort/saves On this page of the top 40 saves leaders in major leagues, Robertson has a WHIP of 1.40, which really isn't that good and I hope isn't considered elite or worth one of the Top 3 salaries in baseball for a closer. He's ahead of only Ziegler, McGee, Rosenthal (deposed from closer's role), Tolleson (deposed from closer's role) and Arodys Vizcaino. Not exactly the best of company for his salary. You want to talk about WAR instead? There are 19 relievers on that same page ahead of Robertson's 0.9, which for a full year equates to less than a 2 WAR. Some of the relievers in that same category? K-Rod, Santiago Casilla, Jonathan Papelbon and Ryan Madson. Not exactly elite again. If he's not a problem, then he's certainly not one of the 3-5 best closers in baseball, which he's clearly being paid to be. Unless you want to go through this list and tell us all the closers that you would currently rank Robertson ahead of, all stats to the contrary, you'd be quite generous to put him in the top 50%. Certainly not based on output per contract dollar or ROI.

QUOTE (greg775 @ Jul 10, 2016 -> 01:56 AM) The guy has 19 home runs! In the article I linked they LOVE his improved defense. The guy just might be our Lou Brock-Ernie Broglio trade before it's over. Semien has 19 home runs! They were calling for him to be an all star already in Oakland. And we discard him. AWFUL. Meanwhile another stud, Saladino, sits day after day. Just make Saladino DH if we won't trade Laurie and give him second base or trade Frazier and give him third. Heck stick him in right field. He can hit. Lou Brock is a HoFer. Vogt made the All-Star team over him. I'm not sure what you saw out of Saladino LAST YEAR to make you think he's a stud...he's a very good utility infielder, and marginal everyday player, in all likelihood. Lawrie's very unlikely to be traded with 2017 doubling down on the "all in" concept. Finally, if Burdi becomes Sox closer for six years (ala Jenks), nobody will be missing Semien TOO MUCH. But that's a HUGE if in terms of Burdi. Nothing is guaranteed in baseball, even if he throws 99-104.