caulfield12

He seems pretty certain the White Sox can just so easily bump payroll up to the $140-145 million mark because that's what it will require for the Big Three. The problem for Hahn at this point is a quieter move like Parra, Austin Jackson, Fowler, Denorfia, Snider, etc., isn't going to move the meter enough...especially with Saladino at SS and EJ and Danks at the back end. Minus a huge resurgence from LaRoche, Avi and Cabrera, the offense is still one player short. Optimistically, let's say they put up a surprise contending season...like 2012...but most fans aren't going to buy in until they're 100% convinced at midseason the White Sox are really going for it. If we don't sign one of those three, it's going to be sort of a half measure. Especially if some of those big names end up on divisional rivals' rosters instead. And the only real pieces they have to move of value in Robertson, Anderson and Fulmer can't be moved for the likes of an Ozuna, CarGo or Puig...or can they? Right now, if there's a hard limit at $119-122 million, he's stuck between a rock and a hard place.

With Cespedes and Upton both rumored by nearly every expert to be in $150 million territory, logic says that Gordon is the one to fall, like Scott Shields last year. The problem with this theory is that 4 years and $100 million is a lot more palatable to about half of MLB in terms of a max contract for their franchise...you can see Gordon falling to maybe $85-90 million, but that would be the absolute floor unless something comes up on a physical exam that draws a red flag and scares teams off (or is used as a negotiating tactic).

Pretty ridiculous to compare him to Contreras...as that deal with the Yankees was considered huge at that time and the dollars aren't adjusted into real inflation-adjusted ones. Contreras was also projected as an ace or no worse than a #2 type of pitcher. That contract gets you John Danks these days if you're lucky, or the bad Cubs' signing that often goes overlooked, lhp Geratdo Concepcion.

KyYlE

The last Christmas/New Year's move I can remember was the Danks/McCathy deal in late 2006.

Brooklyn was excellent...as a few on here have mentioned already. A very quiet but poignant immigation tale with a great performance by Ronan. Last movie I saw her in was the spy film with Eric Bana and she was a blonde waif of a girl...quite the transformation.

Yeah, two of the big missed opportunities from last season were not getting Erik Johnson and Saladino (at SS) more experience...you can argue all you want about the final results of the Samardzija trade and the QO, but you also lost the chance to see how he would have fared starting over the two finals month, which would have given the Sox a little bit more to go on in terms of determining their starting rotation for 2016.

So he turned down the one year, $15.8 million qualifying offer and lost the $45 million, three year deal from LAD... http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/14392826...eattle-mariners

What would be even funnier is if he was a White Sox fan and his dog's name was actually AVI. Alas, too much to ask for...

It was actually one year and $7.25 million for Colon, but the point remains... That said, you pretty much have to give Erik Johnson a chance, and the idea of Colon back in the more challenging AL isn't as attractive for him as the NL. It's the same idea, basically, as Alexei instead of Saladino. 1) Is the possibly marginal performance improvement, if any, worth it for the veterans? 2) What do you prevent yourself from doing by spending that money for Colon/Ramirez rather than someone else? 3) How likely is it that Saladino and Johnson develop into regular contributors if you just leave them alone? 4) What additional value or benefit do you get from "veteran leadership" as opposed to the possibly hungrier younger players out to prove themselves? Obviously the more younger/cheaper/cost-controlled players you have, the better off you are from a financial standpoint.

I think the White Sox marketing department needs to sit down with the State Department and figure out or at least try to project what's possible economically to work on with Cuba...(granted, everything could change again with a new administration in 2017). If you have Abreu and Cespedes together, or Abreu and Puig, then you basically have made the White Sox "Cuba's team" and you figure out some ways to develop additional revenue streams. Rodon has Cuban ties as well. Playing more games in Cuba at some point in Spring Training...travel would be a concern compared to ST in Florida Having Cuba's WBC games at USCF... Marketing/merchandising opportunities... "Official" radio and television contracts...although most get satellite illegally or through DirecTV/DISH from what I understand Of course, this is something the Marlins should have done as well, or SHOULD be doing. Some of these ideas might sound a bit outlandish, but the White Sox need to think "outside of the box" marketing-wise.

QUOTE (oldsox @ Dec 17, 2015 -> 08:52 PM) That is partially explained by the fact that Frazier had little support behind him in batting order. The only other really good hitter was Joey Votto, and he batted ahead of Frazier. That likely resulted in our guy swinging at pitches outside the strike zone. Of course, I don't know who will be hitting behind Frazier -- Lawrie, Avi, ? Yeah, or LaRoche. That's why another big middle of the order hitter would be so huge. Eaton Cabrera Abreu Frazier LaRoche Lawrie A.Garcia Catcher Saladino 5-9 just isn't going to work without adding one more bat.

QUOTE (SouthSideSale @ Dec 17, 2015 -> 08:50 PM) He and his agent are keeping this very very quiet. Casey Close and Gordon. They said that from the get go. He was Jeter's agent too, right? The guy has an almost impeccable reputation compared to some agents.

QUOTE (JRL @ Dec 17, 2015 -> 08:38 PM) Not really sure how Cespedes is more "dynamic and exciting" and a more "natural companion piece to Abreu in terms of teammates/camaraderie and marketing." Are you just trying to say that they are both Cuban? That would have been easier. Cespedes' defense, even as a corner outfielder (much less the center fielder you suggest he could competently be) has declined in recent seasons and Upton's has improved to the point where the metrics say they're about the same (Upton was actually slightly better in 2015, but only negligibly so). 200 ABs is not a significant sample size, especially when those ABs are randomly dispersed and not on a consistent basis. For any player we can pick out even the best of hitters we could go through all their ABs and find 200 of them over which they hit around 207. I'm not sure why Upton's 2015 performance against the AL should be viewed any differently, especially since he's a career 276 hitter vs the AL. For that matter I'm not sure why anyone's uncharacteristically good or bad performance vs the AL or NL specifically should be viewed differently than the result of randomness. People always cite those numbers, but is there some type of statistic I'm missing showing AL pitching to be, on the whole, substantially more difficult to hit against? Cespedes' clearly outlier 2015 season and his very good rookie year sandwiched 2 pretty unimpressive seasons. Obviously Cespedes was a disaster in CF in the playoffs. I just said he could play it, didn't use the word competently in my description. Which defensive metrics are you using? Earlier in the thread, we had three years of DRS and that clearly favored Cespedes, and a large part of that was his huge outfield arm and the number of assists he piles up. Yes, I do prefer the "flamboyant" Cuban style of play, but that's just a personal thing. Upton is or has been a close to great player, but never quite lived up to the superstar hype. That's not to say Cespedes is any better, they're obviously very different types of player/s. Same with Gordon, for that matter. I just think in terms of his personality, we need someone like that to wake up the clubhouse. Adding Lawrie, Frazier...things were just so "dull" and "blah" last year from the point that Shark fell apart not so long after we decided to hold onto him. There's no way to quantify it or stick a number or rating, just a general feeling, and then the concern about transitioning to the AL...where the biggest issue for the White Sox seemingly every season is getting out of the gates early or being left buried for dead with the fans and media.

QUOTE (GreatScott82 @ Dec 17, 2015 -> 08:26 PM) I'm all in on Cedpedes. He doesn't cost a draft pick, had recent success in the AL, provides the team with much needed offensive punch AND has a cannon of an arm to help improve either LF or RF. Hopefully Abreu was in his ear during their Cuba trip. Frazier and Cespedes had 194 RBIs between them both in 2015. Talk about much needed production! The biggest question if how much of a premium are teams willing to give up to keep their draft picks and sign Cespedes instead of Upton or Gordon? Another year in terms of length? How much in terms of AAV would you increase to not to lose the pick? With Gordon, you're taking away one of their best players (see Thome to the Twins, Victor Martinez instead of Dunn to the Tigers, Miggy to Detroit instead of Chicago)...but then you're also giving the Royals another draft pick. Frankly, KC is going to be rebuilding/retooling in 2018 and 2019, so that consideration has to be WAY behind in terms of all the issues to consider. The major concern has to be the Tigers on any of those three...either raising the price or ending up taking them away and the White Sox getting "stuck" with a second/third tier option. With Verlander, J.Zimmermann, A.Sanchez, Kinsler, Miggy, the Martinezes, Iglesias, Maybin, the Tigers are in the same exact boat as us now in terms of being forced to go back to "all in" and not rebuild.

Kudos to Lillian for not falling back on the whole LH fascination and advocating for Alex Gordon, haha. (It's pretty amazing how quiet things have actually been on that front, compared to Cespedes and Upton. All you hear is/was what the Cardinals and KC SUPPOSEDLY offered him or initially wanted to offer him, but even that's pretty much unconfirmed. Lots of rumors.)

Which is the one who used to write for the Sporting News? I remember that name, and Tracy Ringolsby, who I think writes for the Denver Post still...

Cespedes is a much more dynamic and exciting player. He's a natural companion piece to Abreu in terms of teammates/camaraderie and marketing. He can also play any of the OF positions, but is much stronger in RF and LF. Having Cespedes and Eaton together improves your defense quite a bit...and psychologically, knowing you have a competent fielder on your left side allows you to cheat a bit more to the other side and protect Cabrera in the gap. Upton is an average fielder, at best. All of his value comes from hitting and speed/athleticism, which is on the verge of declining in the next couple of years with all of the wear and tear on his body from being healthy for such a long stretch. Yoenis is proven in the AL and NL. He basically was the borderline NL MVP last year, certainly for the last two months. He performed well in both the AL West and AL Central. Upton hasn't shown that...doesn't mean he's not capable, but it's not a given at this point either, not with all the recent issues we've had in that area (LaRoche, Dunn, Samardzija, etc.) With his age and the current White Sox "open window" of 2016 and 2017, a contract for four years for Cespedes with higher average value (or maybe an opt-out again after 2017) makes a lot more financial sense than possibly being "stuck" with Upton for six years. Upton hasn't hit very well the last three years against the AL in inter-league play, only a .207 average in over 200 at-bats.

They also didn't play Saladino much at SS the last two months when it would have been the perefect time to audition him. Seemingly out of respect for Alexei, but Tyler should have played more often there since the games were meaningless at that point...they must have known internally that they were going to move on from Alexei.

QUOTE (fathom @ Dec 17, 2015 -> 11:28 AM) When the Cubs signed Zobrist, did anyone mention his defense dropped by 25.9 dWAR. Of course not He's definitely better in RF than 2b...he won't kill you like a Murphy or Avi/Viciedo, but he has been slipping. That said, he was quietly an offensive force last year in the second half.

Let's hope the solution isn't Nick Markakis, either. This is not where you split the difference and go for second tier guys making $12-16 million like Melky, Fowler, Span, etc. You either go huge or you come up with that creative value platoon of a Raburn/Parra. Definitely not sexy, but possibly quite effective. Avi could platoon with LaRoche...although that gives you five outfielders, Sanchez and a catcher as the bench. I'm pretty sure Raburn can still play a few of the infield positions...not SS obviously.

QUOTE (fathom @ Dec 17, 2015 -> 10:59 AM) Can Raburn play the outfield defensively anymore? If so, I'd love a Parra/Raburn RF platoon. You realize Raburn turns 35 in the first two weeks of the season...? Parra's only 28, surprisingly. In theory, it would work. Raburn crushed lefties with over a 1.000 ops and Parra was a notch above 800 against righties. It's not going to sell any tickets, but it just might be effective. Of course, we had 3b platoons set up over the last three years that looked similarly promising on paper.

QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ Dec 17, 2015 -> 10:42 AM) would you just take your rain cloud to another corner and pout there? Celebrate all you want, but the most important part of the offseason is whether or not JR will open the wallet on Upton, Gordon or Cespedes. Do that, you win back everyone you've lost and skepticism diminishes almost completely. Start Opening Day with Avi, Saladino and LaRoche in the line-up and expectations are tempered. Half-assed and pointless. Hanley Ramiez, CarGo, Ethier, Blackmon, Peralta, Fowler, Span or Parra leaves you somewhere in-between. 3/4's of the way but that undoubtedly means the Tigers and/or Royals have one of Upton, Gordon, Davis, Desmond or Cespedes.

The argument is clear....Rodon, Q, Eaton, Sale and Abreu...along with Anderson and Fulmer, is a lot easier to build around and support than tear down and rebuild again from scratch. That said, they're not a playoff contender yet.

At least they're being more definitive moving on with players that are no longer part of the solution. Viciedo, DeAza, Beckham, Conor, Ramirez, Flowers ... with Avi, Danks and LaRoche the next to be gone. There was nothing worse than repeating the same tired recipe and expecting different results somehow to magically occur.