caulfield12

QUOTE (BlackSox13 @ Dec 17, 2015 -> 09:45 AM) As I said, if the payroll limit stays at 120M then the money isn't there unless the Sox move salary which is one of the reasons why I'm speculating on Parra. Last I read, the Rockies are aiming rather high in a return for their outfielders so I'm not really counting on that either. How much do the Sox have left to trade without dipping into the likes of Anderson, Fulmer and Adams? Nothing of significance. It would be idiotic to authorize the Frazier trade and then force Hahn to make any remaining moves from the trade market unless they're at the very least willing to take on a not insignificant amount of salary for CarGo, Ethier, Crawford, Hanley Ramirez, etc.

Of course ask the idiotic KW vs. Hahn question for the thousandth time this year...did they ask about Ventura and everything else but the need for one more big offensive addition?

Just wait. The Frazier move has everyone excited for the moment, but if that's it, the prevailing theme definitely will be how do you go back to all-in yet again but go about it halfway? The White Sox would struggle to finish third in the division where they stand now.

Welcome to the "White Sox are cheap and don't care as much about winning as the bottom line" offseason when all the remaining big names come off the board and musical chairs leaves the Sox as the last team left out in the cold. Half-in=death by 1,000 knife cuts

QUOTE (CaliSoxFanViaSWside @ Dec 17, 2015 -> 08:59 AM) That is the more likely scenario. Signing Upton or Cespedes is pretty farfetched in reality. Hahn won't be the GM past 2017 if that's the best he can come up with...half-in doesn't cut it here. Especially with all the AL Central teams seemingly vulnerable and one huge signing swaying the balance. God help us if Detroit signs one of those guys and we're left holding the bag.

Boo! That would suck the air out of the balloon and piss off the marketing department in one fell swoop...might as well sign Franklin Gutierrez too.

QUOTE (BlackSox13 @ Dec 17, 2015 -> 08:52 AM) I'm really starting to think the Sox end up signing Parra. Plays RF, a bit of speed, no comp pick and will not cost as much as the big three FA outfielders. He profiles along the lines of what the Sox are suspect to be looking for. Well, minus the power. With his (past) defensive stud reputation, the Royals end up with him, Span or Austin Jackson. Or we test the NL to AL theory for another veteran player again. Parra and Avi just isn't good enough to move the needle. Three years ago, there was a much better case to be made for him. CarGo's more likely the fallback...or Ethier/Crawford because KW loves his brand name veterans.

QUOTE (daggins @ Dec 17, 2015 -> 08:48 AM) Eh, Shuck is cheap but isn't good. There's not much behind him, so more depth is better. Not talking about breaking the bank, but like, Victorino or even De Aza would be nice to have. Austin Jackson because he's a better defender with more speed and younger.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Dec 17, 2015 -> 08:27 AM) That is just the same talk that a few from every team's fanbase feels necessary when they are disgruntled. I'm willing to bet they watch the Reds opening day. And tune out the next day...

QUOTE (BlackSox13 @ Dec 17, 2015 -> 08:26 AM) More Levine regurgitation of other's ideas and writings. He even tried to justify sending LaRoche to Pitt, an idea that was already turned down by Pitt. How does Levine have a job? Anyone have an idea of what Gordon is looking for as far as contract length? Five obviously, but most teams prefer 4...and 3 would be ideal. Realistically, four's the shortest....unless they just have insane frontloading or a favorable opt-out after just two seasons.

QUOTE (Y2HH @ Dec 17, 2015 -> 08:36 AM) Adam Dunn Adam LaRoche It's not a theory...it's fact. Or maybe it's just players named Adam. Eaton has done pretty well though, another Adam.

Upton against AL the last three years. 217 ab's, 22 runs, 45 hits, 8 doubles, 7 homers, 23 RBI's, .207 BA AL Central .273, 15 for 55, 2 homers and 6 RBI's. The fact that he's a LFer and Cespedes has a much better arm for RF and the whole NL enigma...along with the fact that Cespedes will require 1-2 less years...has to be him between just those two.

http://pro.boxoffice.com/featured_stories/...ad-chip-sisters Predicted to come in at $229 million and smash the records of Jurassic Park for opening weekend and Hobbit series for December opening...and possibly wipe out Titanic and Avatar in total intl b.o. although that $2.8 billion with Avatar's a toughie.

http://www.baseballamerica.com/majors/trade-central-6/ Made me laugh....describing Frazier as a "hero" in Cincy. Detailed trade/prospect analysis from BA. They're not very high on Montas holding up as a starter, either. Some interesting stuff on Thompson's offensive surge as well. What are the DRS numbers the past 2-3 seasons from Frazier???

QUOTE (SouthSideSale @ Dec 17, 2015 -> 07:53 AM) No these aren't comparable. One is trading for an All Star 3B the other is signing 3 of the top outfielders (it was purely fantasy and sarcasm). They're going to shell it out sooner rather than later. They paid Abreu $68 million and didn't get a MLB at bat out of him at that time. They're going to do it eventually. Especially Sales next contract. I don't think that $200+ million deal comes from us for Sale. Just too risky. And I was talking about getting two of the big names (you can add Chris Davis), not 3/3.

Well, a week ago it was imaginary to acquire Frazier without giving up Anderson OR Fulmer. Granted, the double signing would be a lot less likely than the White Sox more or less standing pat from here on out...but that's also a realistic possibility. It's still a bit difficult to believe they're going to shell out their first $100+ million dollar contract.

Corner OF bat. Better insurance for Saladino than Sanchez...Desmond or Ramirez. Veteran second or third tier starter to replace Johnson if he falters early. One more RH reliever for the Albers role...Jones, Petricka and Putnam just feels a bit short, but that one's not the end of the world...or the second lefty. Right now the bench is catcher two, Shuck, Carlos Sanchez and a bit of a mystery...Avi, but he's more likely traded or in AAA unless he's a platoon DH partner with LaRoche.

QUOTE (PorkChopExpress @ Dec 16, 2015 -> 06:42 PM) At least half of Soxtalk would have a problem with it. That's just not going to happen, if for no other reason than Cabrera being forced to DH and wasting another $13 million or so on LaRoche's deal. Sure, if they were to spend $200-250 million, what's another $13 million I guess. There's that school of improbable thought. And certainly going five years on Cespedes and six plus on Upton carries a pretty fair amount of risk. These opt-out deals seem to be the norm at the moment, but that also would mean having to replace at at even higher cost an outperforming asset. Still, three years for Gordon and four for Cespedes would be all that should be guaranteed. Nevertheless, there's no conceiveable way it's Upton AND another one of those two, unless it's Ian Desmond in a Ben Zobrist swing man role where he becomes primary SS if Saladino flops or plays OF, 2b, DH and maybe 3b as well. That's from the lose one pick might as well blow them both school of thought from last year...obviously with future consequences for the farm system being damned.

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/white-sox-get...-181722163.html Passan article on the deal

No, but you need for the more average or semi-casual fan to believe that your team has at least a 50/50 chance to compete for a playoff spot. Those fans could care less about WAR or payroll obligations...they only care about wins and losses, and the team's place in the standings. http://www.cincinnati.com/story/sports/mlb...-reds/77444506/ Good article from Cincy paper about Frazier and the team's need to trade him, very laudatory... http://www.cincinnati.com/story/sports/mlb...-fans/75682648/ How will the Reds sell rebuilding to the fans? Worthwhile reading. Lots of examples (Cubs, Astros, Pirates, Royals, etc.) with plenty of quotes. Like the White Sox situation, the Reds held on too long with too many veteran players for "one last shot" at it and it has come back to bite them a bit, especially with the likes of Chapman, Frazier, Bruce and Phillips. They really don't have a whole lot to promote. Joey Votto. Billy Hamilton was a dud. Mesoraco and Cozart were hurt or didn't perform nearly as well as 2014. A Tigers' castoff (Suarez) was your main offensive highlight amongst the youngsters, and a batch of young rookie pitchers took a beating in the 2nd half.

QUOTE (mmmmmbeeer @ Dec 16, 2015 -> 11:56 PM) There was some talk earlier about what power JR has to make decisions, is he chairman or majority owner, etc... It really doesn't matter. JR and co. bought the team for $20M. Forbes puts their value at just about $1BILLION now. That's something like 5000% ROI (if I'm figuring that correctly) on $230M in annual revenues. Money should never be an issue with this franchise. JR could literally spend $500M on payroll for a single season and his fellow investors would STILL be in line to make a ton of money off of their investment. The difference between a $100M payroll and a $150M payroll, assuming the team with $150M payroll has some success, is not really much of gamble in the grand scope of things. Look, we've got Sale, Quintana, Rodon, and Fulmer cost-controlled for the next several years. Pitching wins in the playoffs. If there were ever a time to go all-in, it's now. I am forced to believe that KW and RH are saying the same things to JR and money will NOT be an obstacle as we continue to turn this team into a contender. Sox fans have no reason to be down on this team....we can, and I trust will, make the moves necessary to get back on the map as a respectable franchise. Not only that, but there's the huge elephant in the room, that media rights negotiation in 3-4 years. Typically, teams are doubling their existing rights fees and ending up in the $100-150 million range per year, on average (obviously the Dodgers are an outlier and the net effect won't be as positive as first believed by the new owners because of all the households that can't watch the Dodgers or ESPN, either). With the White Sox likely losing the Cubs from the Comcast deal (as they go independent), that would make it 50% Reinsdorf's Bulls and White Sox, 25% Blackhawks and 25% Comcast/NBC/Universal or whoever the corporate parent these days. One way or the other they need to be as well-positioned as possible to take advantage of that impending situation. The last thing they can afford to do is half-ass it for the next two seasons and then end up tearing it down again before 2018 (Lawrie, Frazier and Cabrera leaving at the same time, the Boras/Rodon impending free agency distractions like you're already seeing with Fernandez in Miami, etc.) If there's going to be ANY time in the next 4-5 years to tear it down or continue building/sustaining, it's going to be between the 2017 and 2018 seasons...with another important consideration being the fact that after 2018 there's going to be HUGE free agency class in terms of potential impact.

And it also relates to the amount of money Cespedes, Gordon and Upton are each going to receive. Cespedes will be an above average corner guy and borderline problem in CF. Upton's value mostly come from his offense, OBP and speed and adequate/average defensive skills overall. I guess the only way to demonstrate this is to get one of those outliers (negatively, Murphy) or Alex Gordon (positively) and see the effect overall on the entire team...it definitely seems that a tone is set (2012) or you can certainly see things get worse colletively as well, where every mistakes feeds on itself and it also affects pitchers/hitting as well.

QUOTE (RockRaines @ Dec 16, 2015 -> 09:16 PM) You cannot take injuries into account when building a roster unless they are injury prone. Our rotation is fantastic and our offense should be improved. One more addition and it's quite an offseason. The front end of the rotation is that. Danks is what he is. Johnson is the key. If he solidifies that spot, they're flying high. If not, then you're left with lots of bad options like Beck, Carroll, Jacob Turner and you're behind the 8 ball early, because the trade market won't have developed until late May. It would be pretty shocking if they forced Fulmer into the big league rotation at any point in the first half of the season, unless he was just lighting up Birmingham.

QUOTE (Hatchetman @ Dec 16, 2015 -> 09:15 PM) I can't recall the exact numbers but Sox position players had like 17 cumulative WAR, which was dead last or near it in MLB. good teams have about 40 WAR. So let's say Frazier gives you 5-6 extra. Lawrie 2-3. where's the rest coming from? I think a 5-6 net improvement is a lot more realistic. 7-9 just feels way too high. Lawrie has been injured a lot, and playing 2B everyday will exacerbate that possibility (it's why the Dodgers decided to keep Turner at 3B and didn't trade for Frazier themselves)...and his defensive skill-set and size/bulkiness right now are more well-suited for third. We do at least have a capable back-up option in Carlos Sanchez, especially from a defensive standpoint.

QUOTE (RockRaines @ Dec 16, 2015 -> 09:03 PM) The C platoon improves that spot. We've upgrade 3B and 2b quite a bit. If they add a good OF this offseason has been excellent. Avila, LaRoche, Lawrie, Eaton, Cabrera and Abreu all have to be considered "above average" health risks in terms of getting injured at some point or another. Things are certainly looking BETTER, but we're still trusting Saladino, Erik Johnson, John Danks, Avi, LaRoche and the bullpen a lot more than they probably deserve. At least one more offensive addition and 2nd/3rd tier veteran starter OR replacement for Albers would help, although Jones can help pick up the slack if he can stay healthy. The last two are more luxuries at this point, but the big bat is an absolute necessity or there are just too many flaws in the plan that can go wrong.