Chicago White Sox

QUOTE (striker @ Dec 30, 2016 -> 10:15 AM) The point of posting trade proposals is to generate conversation, regardless of their probability of really happening. Look, I'm not trying to be a dick and enjoy discussing fan-generated trade proposals, but they got to be somewhat in the realm of reality to merit discussion. Your trade proposal has a 0.1% chance of happening and isn't going to generate any productive conversation on this board.

QUOTE (striker @ Dec 30, 2016 -> 08:56 AM) 1. If you have talent on your major league roster, you can always use that to replenish your minors. For example, see the current Chicago White Sox. 2. They have a window to compete now. They stand to lose Arenado, Gonzalez and Blackmon in the next 1-2 years. Abreu + Quintana could add anywhere from 6 to 10 wins. Rockies are currently projected for 78 wins in 2017 by FanGraphs. Quintana (4) + Abreu (2) puts them at 84 wins in 2017. 3. They don't have spots to play all of their prospects. Rodgers, Tapia and Murphy don't have positions right now (not that they are all major league ready). No point in holding them in the minors, might as well convert them to return on your major league roster. To me a team has to commit to winning or losing. The Rockies are in the same boat the White Sox were, mired in mediocrity, but they have the prospects to change that. With my trade above, you have a sweet team for the next two years, you put your balls on the table. At the 2018 trade deadline, you can trade Blackmon or Arenado to add prospects, then in the offseason you could move Abreu, Quintana or anyone else to do the same. Or you could keep your roster as is, win 78-80 games and talk about how you have great prospects. First off, your proposal is a ridiculous overpay. Two top 25 prospects plus two or three more top 100 types and then an org top 10 guy on top of that. That might the largest package of talent traded in the past 30 years. Outside of the Bartolo Colon trade to the Expos, I can't think of anything even similar. At that price, they would be so much better just signing Napoli and trading for Archer. Second, no GM is trading that much talent is a single trade. First off, it's incredibly risky and has a chance of destroying the long-term well being of the franchise if things were to go south (say Quintana blowing out his shoulder). Along those same lines, the GM would be putting his career in baseball at risk at making such a "bold" trade. I can promise you if you're the GM who makes the next Shelby Miller trade, you will never be in charge of a front office again. No matter how you slice it, this type of trade is simply not happening.

QUOTE (striker @ Dec 30, 2016 -> 08:02 AM) Send them Abreu too. Quintana and Abreu for Rodgers, Hoffman, Dahl, Pint, Murphy, Tapia Come on dude, they'd be cleaning out their entire minor league system in this proposal. You can't think this is realistic right?

Awesome job guys! Brian & Rob both did a tremendous job, coming off as knowlegable, professional, and most importantly entertaining. I really hope you make this a regular thing, because this was a great listen and I'd love to hear more from you guys.

I'd still like to see the Sox try Saladino in a Zobrist role. If used across 2B, SS, 3B, & LF he could get enough playing time to essentially be considered a regular.

QUOTE (bmags @ Dec 28, 2016 -> 10:00 PM) I am certain that if Todd Frazier were a FA this year he would make less than Turner. Frazier is not worth that much. Good player though. I'm not arguing what Todd Frazier would be worth in this market, I'm arguing what he'd be worth during the 2017 season for a team that acquires him. Turner is coming off a career year, while Frazier is coming off a dissapointing one. There's no doubt that Turner would get more in this market. Having said that, it's quite apparent that teams didn't view Turner as a 5+ WAR player (which they shouldn't), but that he also took a sizable hometown discount. His $16M AAV does reflect his true market value IMO. What's interesting though is that Frazier was the superior player in 2014 & 2015. With a strong rebound in 2017 Frazier could easily eclipse Turner's contract next offseason, especially when you consider he won't cost a team their 1st round pick. Again, I think some posters here are seriously undervaluing Frazier because of his poor 2016 season. I fully expect a 3+ WAR season out of him next year and that should be very valuable come the deadline no matter what market rate you place on WAR.

QUOTE (OmarComing25 @ Dec 28, 2016 -> 09:41 PM) Frazier makes a lot of sense for the Cardinals. Peralta sucks now and Gyorko is pretty bad too. The Cardinals, Mets, Giants, & Red Sox could all use him. Maybe no one bites at our price right now, but come the trade deadline that could easily change, especially if Frazier is back to being a 115 wRC+ type hitter. This idea of just getting rid of him for whatever you can get right now is absolutely crazy to me unless you think he'll continue to regress.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Dec 28, 2016 -> 09:32 PM) Edwin Encarnacion was a 3.9 fWAR player last year and has put up >20 fWAR over his last 5 years. Maybe you project a bit of dropoff for him but on paper, you might call him just under a 4 WAR player next year. He got...$20 million next year. Todd Frazier, as you project, as a 2-2.5 win player, getting the same money per win that Encarnacion got the year beforehand, would be a $10-15 million player. Justin Turner put up 5.6 fWAR last year, more than Frazier has put up in any season of his career, and he got $16 million per year. Todd Frazier is not a $20 million/year player. People simply are not paying right now for Todd Frazier's skill set. If you wanted to call this a market inefficiency that could be exploited to win games I'd probably agree with you, but you can only play so many guys at DH, so there's only so much you can do to win games using this inefficiency. When did Todd Frazier become a DH? Am I missing something here? And Encarnacion is a 34 year old DH in a huge buyer's market who would cost a team their 1st round pick and was still able to get $21.7M/year in guaranteed money. The 2017 1B/DH market the 2018 3B market, so let's not pretend it's somehow predictive. As for Justin Turner, he clearly took a hometown discount. I don't buy for a second that's how the market valued him. You really think teams believe Turner is only worth $5M than Kendrys Morales? Or only $6M more than Andrew Cashner? Come on Balta, you're better than this.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Dec 28, 2016 -> 08:47 PM) Todd Frazier being a decent player is not the point. Todd Frazier not being a solid upgrade from what any other team has at those positions, and Todd Frazier basically being paid his market value for a 1 year deal, is what makes Frazier worth very little in trade. Being paid his market value? What does WAR go for these days? $8M per win? If that's the case, market value would be $20M to $24M, which means he'll likely provide some surplus value. He'll also be one of the best 3B in free agency next year and should provide the acquiring team a pick if he leaves. I don't think a prospect in 75 to 125 range is unreasonable, but obviously there have to be teams with a hole at 3B. It's really amazing how much people overreact to one down year. Frazier was a 4+ WAR player in both 2014 & 2015. He switches leagues and experiences a bizarre change in his batted ball profile and suddenly he's a 2.5 WAR player. Honestly, I don't buy it and think he will rebound to some extent. His 4+ WAR days may be over, but I still think he'll be a 3+ WAR next year. And if a team won't pay for that player now, I'll happily hold onto him until deadline and get it then.

QUOTE (Feeky Magee @ Dec 28, 2016 -> 07:23 PM) Dan Jennings is not worth near what some posters seem to think he is. Nice ERA but extremely meh peripherals. The market no longer rewards relievers like that. It's why Matt Albers only cost the Sox $2m last year coming off a 1.21 ERA. Not a great comparison IMO. Left-handed pitching is always in demand and a guy like Jennings should have some value despite mediocre peripherals.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Dec 28, 2016 -> 07:08 PM) I would not give up a top 100 prospect for Todd Frazier with the number of bats available on the FA market and their seemingly dropping prices. I find it entirely reasonable to have him after Jennings in terms of trade value. I do agree he would appear to be above Gonzalez. Edit: Following this same logic I could find Abreu lower on that list than #3 as well. Which of those sluggers play 3B? Don't think it's fair to just lump him into the slugger category. Also, a team that trades for Frazier now would likely get a draft pick if/when he left. I think a prospect in the 75 to the 125 range would be fair value. The question is what contenders actually need help at 3B right now. That's the bigger concern IMO than the presence of other sluggers on the market.

QUOTE (ChiSoxFanMike @ Dec 28, 2016 -> 06:52 PM) How would you guys rank the remaining trade chips in order of value? I'd say: 1. Quintana 2. Jones 3. Abreu 4. Robertson 5. Jennings 6. Gonzalez 7. Frazier 8. Melky Frazier way too low. Right now, I'd put him #4.

Alright, officially time to get this thread back on track. While not a rumor, here is the first question from MLBtraderumors recent chat:

And I think it's way too early to say one way or the other how competive the team will be in 2018. My guess is it will be an ugly year, but we haven't completed our rebuilding efforts. We still have a ton of trade chips to cash in on. Having said that, here's what our opening day 2018 lineup might look like with no other moves: 1B: Abreu 2B: Moncada SS: Anderson 3B: Davidson/Saladino LF: Coats/Liriano CF: Tilson/Engel/May RF: Coats/Liriano DH: Garcia/Delmonico C: Navarez That's one ugly f***ing lineup. Most reinforcements currently in the system won't arrive until mid to late 2018. But the key word here is "currently" as we should fully expect a few more positional prospects coming back our way over the next 7 months that can help by the start of 2018. And that also ignores the benefits of free agency and I assume we'll aggressively pursue any international free agents that don't count against the spending caps. Anyways, the point is a lot can change between now and the start of 2018, so there is no point in speaking with absolute certainty at this point. Let's give this a rebuild a bit more time before we overreact too much one way or the other.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Dec 28, 2016 -> 11:41 AM) This rebuild has hit cult-like proportions, and it has just begun. I just wish if you are really this strongly against a rebuild, you would tell us what your preferred alternative would be.

QUOTE (SoxAce @ Dec 28, 2016 -> 10:16 AM) And you didn't even mention Kopech who I'm the highest on after Lopez in our system. Hit on some position players and look out. Obviously not all of those guys will pan out, but if the sox can get even 40% of them to... wow. Yeah, I was just highlighting the guys who will impact the 2017 White Sox. I think Kopech is probably a June 2018 guy best case scenario, but he's obviousy a huge part of our future rotation. But to your point, there will plenty of guys in the minors to follow too. And another perk to the rebuild is we no longer have to rush guys to fill major league needs.

First off, rebuilding was without question the right strategy for us. We were stuck in the middle with no money and a bottom five farm system. The choice to blow it up was a no brainer. Second, I am super excited to follow some of these young players. By June we could have a rotation that includes Rodon, Giolito, Lopez, & Fulmer. That's four young guys with TOR stuff. For diehard Sox fans, that already makes 80% games at least somewhat interesting. Plus we'll have an electric young arm in the bullpen in Burdi. By June we should also see the most exciting positional prospect the White Sox have had since Frank Thomas called up. I can't understate how excited I am to watch Moncada develop into the superstar he has a legit chance at becoming. I also can't wait to follow Anderson in his second season and see if he can become one of the top young SS in the game. And hopefully there are some other exciting positional prospects on the way between Quintana and/or other potential deals. Hell, I'm even excited to see if any of our C type prospects develop into anything. One or two of Tilson, Liriano, Engel, & May will get some serous playing time in the OF this year. Davidson could get a shot at DH or 3B. Right now Navarez looks to be in the mix at C. There are also a few interesting guys at Charlotte who might eventually get a chance in Delmonico & Peter. I'm not optimistic any of these guys will turn into solid major league players, but rebuilding gives us an opportunity to play these type of prospects and see if any stick. And finally I'm excited to cheer on our remaining trade assets in preparation for what should be an exciting 2017 deadline for us. Assuming Q is dealt in the next month, we could still have guys like Abreu, Frazier, Cabrera, Robertson, Jones, Jennings, Petricka, Putnam, Gonzalez, Holland, etc. that could bring back varying degrees of value. There should be a second influx of prospects come July of 2017. So ultimately while 2017 is going to suck from a wins & losses perspective, there's a lot of things to be excited for if you're willing to consider other angles. And guess what, if the losing is too much for anyone, they can simply change the channel and not feel guilty. There is no expectation to win next year which means following the White Sox can finally be on our own terms. After putting in hundreds of hours into this team over the last few years and receiving nothing in return but regret & unfulfillment, that's a huge plus for me.

I still think a move happens before the end of the year. Too much smoke for nothing to happen.

QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Dec 27, 2016 -> 01:38 PM) So just for fun, I put together a system-wide org chart for the White Sox. I slotted in all the players at all levels as best as I could, guessing on Opening Day assignments. Underneath are two lists - the ones I couldn't fit, and then the free agents as-yet unsigned. Here is a link to it on Google Docs. Please ignore that I misnamed Dylan Covey as James Covey, lol, I'll fix that later. Nice work and much appreciated! I think you have Fisher & Adalfo reversed. Jameson is a fairly advanced hitter and already 23 years old, so I can't see him starting in low A. I think we see a high A outfield of Basabe, Call, & Fisher with Micker at least repeating low A to start the season.

QUOTE (Quinarvy @ Dec 27, 2016 -> 03:17 PM) Eh, Law that offer was light and I'd agree. To me it's because the Astros are like the Braves and don't view Q as a front line starter. I personally don't think that offer is light at all. I just think Luhnow doesn't realize that in the modern MLB that you have to really go for it when you have a window and that sometimes means trading away quality prospects. Epstein most definitely overpaid for Chapman but it helped them get a ring. Can't be a major league GM and he afraid to make a move like that if you want to win a title.

QUOTE (steveno89 @ Dec 27, 2016 -> 03:17 PM) Levine's article mentions Kaprielian and Mateo Both players stock are trending downard in my opinion. Mateo was nothing special in 2016 and Kaprielian was injured all season Astros are out for right now, but so were the Red Sox on Sale until deal day Levine is just throwing out names, no chance in hell the Sox make a trade with the Yankees without getting one of Torres or Frazier.

QUOTE (Feeky Magee @ Dec 27, 2016 -> 03:12 PM) Can we not be bitter towards teams who decide not to give us what we're asking for? It's perfectly reasonable to decide not to give Francis Martes, Kyle Tucker and Joe Musgrove for Jose Quintana. I don't disagree, but I also think they would be crazy to enter the 2017 season without adding a TOR starter.

QUOTE (bmags @ Dec 27, 2016 -> 09:30 AM) Yes, but honestly think all of the hangup is over Torres, who is likely a top 5-10 prospect in game now. Agree. And I really like Frazier, but Mateo scares me a ton as a potential second piece. I think Torres/Rutherford is a much, much stronger pair of headliners, which probably why a deal hasn't taken place yet. Now, if we throw in a cheap Robertson (assuming we provide cash), maybe they feel they can recoup enough value if he has a strong start to 2017 and decide to push Torres into the package.

QUOTE (soxfan2014 @ Dec 27, 2016 -> 09:27 AM) Would you guys expect it to be an OF prospect (one of Frazier and Rutherford), an IF prospect (one of Mateo and Torres), Sheffield and then another piece or two? That's exactly what I would expect. And given how deep the Yankees system is, that "another piece or two" could be very nice prospects.

QUOTE (Con te Giolito @ Dec 27, 2016 -> 09:19 AM) Then there have been media people, one moronic and one maybe-not-as-moronic, who've said Robles for Robertson is plausible. I can kind of surmise what Quintana, Frazier and Jones would return but I have no idea what Robertson is worth anymore. That fangraphs guy doesn't know what he's talking about, Robertson isn't landing Robles or anyone of that nature.