Flash Tizzle

This team enters matchups against Santana absolutely defeated. It's as if they mimmick the general feeling around Soxtalk of "Santana's pitching, this is an automatic loss." Last two outtings against Johan he's pitched a perfect game into the 5th inning. Three career shutouts for Santana--one against us, possibly two if it were not for Konerko's HR last outting. Any quesiton of Santana's ability? Absolutely not. But he's in your division, and you have to learn how to defeat him. Are we going to concede losses against Santana for the unforseable future? You have to think outside of conventional baseball methods to defeat someone who has your number. Pay Stats inc. several thousand dollars to chart his pitches; find if there's a tendency to throw a certain pitch in a particular count. Watch extra film. Do anything besides the approach I've seen. His ERA isn't 0.00. There have been teams, as one can believe, that have hit him. I don't want to hear anyone tipping their hat. This offense wet themself against a playoff caliber pitcher, yet again.

The point several of you missed is Iguchi is fed up with Guillen resting him every other day. He must be just as confused and agitated with Guillen's lineups as we've been recently. Purpose in resting him regularly in July/August was to prepare him for September/October stertch run. Well, it's arrived; and unfortunately, Sox have made this division close. Time to quit babying our lineup. Is it difficult to maintain the same "A" lineup (without Timo, Blum, Ozuna) for one week regardless of matchups?

QUOTE(infohawk @ Sep 16, 2005 -> 09:10 AM) Guys, guys, guys, what's wrong with this team right now is the starting pitching. But for Contreras, they all seem fatigued. I will concede the possibility that they are fatigued because Ozzie overused them, but I don't know that for sure. We probably wouldn't even notice any of these other "problems" if the starters were still throwing quality starts. Let's just hope they can turn it around over the final two weeks of the season. KW did a great job of reconstructing this team. This is the best White Sox team since our last playoff appearance. The most wins we have had since then was 86 in 2003. We have 88 wins right now with two weeks to play. We have a 4.5 game lead in the division and a slightly larger lead in the wild card race should it come to that. No doubt our momentum is going the wrong way, but that can change if the starting pitchers step up and carry us to the finish line. Let's hope they do. Our season depends on how they pitch from here on out. It's that simple. With all due respect to my fellow Sox fans, all of this talk about firing people is crazy. For the purpose of understanding your position, let's examine the ramifications of a possible collapse. A team once ahead 15 games in the standings completely embarrasses itself, the city of Chicago, and the organization by blowing away a substantial lead in the division and everyone escapes unharmed? I'm positive everyone on this forum wish they had this sort of job security. Honestly, this team falters down the stretch and misses a playoff birth I don't want to see a similar roster on the field next season. But guess what? Nearly every positional player is signed through 06.' We're stuck with either a group of chokers or a potential playoff contender. Now, look at the upcoming free agent market. Not an appealing alternative for upgrading our club. Williams will be under a tremendous amount of pressure this offseason, in the event of this collapse, not only to move players responsible for the event itself but sign FA's from a relatively weak market. His task will become nearly impossible. If everything follows this course, expect 06' to be his farwell tour. I'll continually have to mention this tidbit because apparently people fail to comprehend the situation. It doesn't matter what the nature of the market was. Have you read a local newspaper recently? Pick up a Sun-Times or browse their website when you have an opportunity. Read Couch's colum. He blames Guillen and Williams for failing to "[open their eyes]--if they had been, it would have produced more than Geoff Blum." Understand this: Williams did nothing and will be burned for it locally, nationally, and by any fan not understanding the staure of July's trading deadline. We're the minority. We understand the demands of organizations seeking the most in return for valuable talent. I'm pulling a fathom here needlessly complimenting myself, but I deserve it. It was so damn predictable what would happen if this team either collapsed or were quickly removed from the playoffs. Whether ridiculously lopsided trade offers were presented to Williams it remains clear he did nothing to upgrade this offense. Nothing. It's that simple. History won't remember the stagnant nature of the trade market. His position in White Sox history lies on the final outcome of 17 games.

QUOTE(Jenks Heat @ Sep 15, 2005 -> 08:17 PM) For some reason I find the banner disturbing. I know what you mean. The grammar is atrocious. In the content of the heading, "just win" shouldn't be followed with a question mark. Now everyone logging onto Soxtalk will assume we're ignorant and move onto WSI

I've repeated since the trading deadline past July 31st Williams would receive blame, as unfair as it may sound, for failing to add a valuable offensive player at the deadline. It doesn't matter whether or not teams were demanding ridiculous packages for their players. What does matter--and this will become White Sox lore if we blow this lead--is 2005 was the year general manager Kenny Williams failed to upgrade a questionable offense midseason. Due to lack of offensive consistency and fatigued started pitching, the White Sox.....(goes on from here depending on final 18 games) You have to ask yourself if this team does collapse and does miss a playoff birth who deserves blame. I just don't believe any scenario which suggests complacency towards management or players. How can anyone justify a team choking away a 15 game lead without distributing blame? Such a monumental choke has never happened for a reason. What's a shame (or perhaps blessing; depending on outcome) is this is basically the same lineup, pitching staff KW will trot out next year. They better avoid a collapse for the sake of Williams. How would he justify keeping the same lineup from the year of a monumental choke?

After Buehlre's embarrassing outing this afternoon against the lowly Kansas City Royals he should be apologizing to the fans. I don't want to hear him utter ONE comment not featured in the usual collection of baseball cliches. He's limited to the following quotes: "these guys battled," "take every game one at a time," "I tip my cap," "We haven't won anything yet." Disgrace your team and fail to step up you don't deserve to speak out of term. The entire team looked for Buehlre to heal the wounds of the last week and he didn't. The entire club has continued to wet itself under the persistent pressure of an advancing Indians club. Let's see if they have the desire to turn around their fortunes in MInnesota..

QUOTE(Cerbaho-WG @ Sep 15, 2005 -> 02:10 PM) 4.5 games right there. Thanks, Mark. Good to know Buehrle found it within himself to surrender the lead and likey begin a talespin knocking us from a playoff birth. And Vizcaino makes it worse. This team is atrocious-- but yet, we're fine. Remember, we've "owned" the Cleveland Indians this season.

QUOTE(Mercy! @ Sep 15, 2005 -> 01:04 AM) Dear Mr. Serling, Uh-oh! Does that mean that Catfish’s KC locker never really existed then? Or that the three years he played in Kansas City were actually a sort of parallel-universe Oakland? Does that mean that when I rooted for the Washington Senators, Frank Howard never actually existed after the team moved to Texas? And how can the Nationals really be in the National League if they're playing in RFK Stadium? I'm afraid my head's going to explode! Never mind. I gotta go hitch a ride on that turnip truck down yonder, the one marked, Twilight Zone. Dazed and Confused, Mercy Damn. HIZZ-OWNED.

QUOTE(SoxFanForever @ Sep 15, 2005 -> 12:30 AM) Isn't Ol' Willie a vet yet? It all depends on whom Guillen determines as a veteran. He probably just asked Timo to round everyone up who looks old.

QUOTE(southsideirish71 @ Sep 14, 2005 -> 11:09 PM) Jenks gives us the best option at the end of games. McCarthy gives us the best option in the rotation. Its called playing the hot hand. Its what most teams do. Speaking of those two, I find it odd Guillen only included veterans in this closed door meeting. Aren't Jenks, McCarthy important parts of this club? Article cites 14 were included, which leaves 11 who were obviously thought of by Guillen as not worthy of a pep talk. Just go through the roster and list the obvious veterans: Hernandez Garcia Buehlre Garland Contreras Hermanson Politte Dye Konerko Everett Pierzynski Widger Perez (of course) I'm not sure which remaining player Guillen would label as a veteran, but it's obvious he excluded numerous key players. Just include everyone on the team, yes--even Borchard, and give them the same speech to step it up. May not do anything, but relay onto everyone your expectations down the stretch.

Were Dye, Hermanson, and Garcia at this meeting?

QUOTE(Colorado Sox Fan @ Sep 14, 2005 -> 10:05 PM) Ozzie will stay with Hermie until will are out of the playoff hunt and beyond that. He'd rather be loyal than actually win f-ing games. Bye bye!!! Loyalty is the most essential compound needed for successful chemistry! It's not as if we're only leading our divison by 5 games..... What? Well, it's not as if 6 games remain with a team on our heels....... It's more important to remain loyal with the players who've brought you where you are, despite poor performance and injury, rather than place rookies in new roles. Remember this.

Not one bench player should be starting tomorrow. No Timo No Widger No Ozuna Guillen, you've rested your players continually throughout the season, and until recently, it was justified with our stellar record. Now, we're in a tight division race and need our starters on the field and not sulking on the bench. Buehlre needs to do his part as well. I just won't tolerate a loss tomorrow. Whether or not we're up against Greinke this team better f***ing win.

I consider myself a rational, handsome individual, but this is becoming ridiculous. No one can longer assume we're going to the playoffs because "we've owned the central divison," or "we've owned the Cleveland Indians," or my favorite "If we play [winning %] the remainder of the season...." Buehlre needs to establish himself as this teams ace tomorrow afternoon. NO EXCUSES. If you don't win tomorrow, and at the worst win the series in Minnesota, it will become a little more stressful (if possible) in Soxdom.

QUOTE(JimH @ Sep 14, 2005 -> 09:38 PM) Maybe they need better players who can execute better, what a concept that might be. The lack of execution ultimately does fall on the players. Most noteable lack of concentration occured in the 9th when Dye bobbled two balls and allowed the advancement of two KC players. I don't blame Guillen solely for tonight's loss, but I do criticize his fascination with leaving Garcia in until trouble arupts. It's happened before in previous starts.

QUOTE(robinventura23 @ Sep 14, 2005 -> 09:25 PM) Let's see how much of a big game pitcher Buehrle is tomorrow. He needs to solidfy himself as an "ace" and squash these discussions of a possible collapse. However, let's remember who we're up against tomorrow--CY GREINKE. Could be yet another series loss KC.

Howell's best outting of the year, coincidentally, was against our Sox September 8th. Although I'm happy to see him again since I'm confident we'll hit him. This offense fails to scratch across 4 runs there's something wrong. His ERA isn't knocking on 7 because he's the recepient of poor luck or a bullpen which surrenders inherited runners. He's just that bad.

QUOTE(beck72 @ Sep 14, 2005 -> 02:53 PM) A six game lead is a lot different than a 2 or 3 game lead in mid Sept. Hernandez is different than Grilli/ diaz/ Wright. He's a proven big game winner. He should be afforded some leeway. [Not a lot as he's struggled big time for a while now]. But some leeway. Like Ozzie has done. Put him on notice, but give him support as well. If the sox were to blow their lead [which correct me if I'm wrong, you have been seriously worried about], El Duque wouldn't be the sole or the biggest reason. Yes, a six game lead is different from a 2/3 game lead. Just not as different as the 15 game lead held a month ago. Saturday's start should remain El-Duque's determing factor in whether or not he continues starting down the stretch and into the playoffs. He loses against Minnesota, I don't want to hear excuses. He's out. You have to make it this simple in deciding his fate. If not, we'll be debating his pitching line and insisting "giving up 4 ER in 7 IP isn't bad..." or "it's not his fault the offense failed to show up against Santana. Garcia had similiar misfortunes..." Sounds unfair, but baseball exists to win games--not cator to the needs of someones feelings. My concern with El-Duque is Guillen is desperately searching for any glimmer of success to justify leaving him in the starting rotation. I don't necessarily believe it's a question of giving his team the best opportunity to win, but rather maintaing stability in our favorite intangible: "chemistry." I doubt the veteran pitcher would appreciate being replaced with a rookie. If he pitches a quality outting--regardless of the final outcome--would this convince any of you he belongs in the rotation? Minnesota doesn't exactly have a great offense. Depending on our position in the standings, and whether or not it drastically changes between now and Saturday, it should be Duque's to lose. If the lead in the division falls below 6 games, EVEN IF Duque wins Saturday against Minnesota, do you continue to start him? I don't. Above 6, and a Duque win, it's entirely different. Every game matters from this position on.

QUOTE(chisoxt @ Sep 13, 2005 -> 04:34 PM) That Santana has a blister is BS. Not only was he not moved to friday to face the Sox, but by moving him to Saturday, we face him not one but two more times. I'm glad we're facing Santana. Develop a plan and learn how to hit him. Maybe they'll put extra time into indentifying his tendencies: perhaps charting the probability of Santana throwing a certain pitch in a certain count. If they care about maintaing their lead they should explore all venues to defeating Santana. Either that, or continue embarrassing themselves. I just won't accept "tipping my cap" or conceding defeat before he steps to the mound. Although I know others don't share my expectations of a club holding the best record in the American League. Journalists covering the Sox might as well save themselves time and write a story consisting of Konerko quoting Santana's dominance, Guillen praising him as as "tremendous Venezeulan pee-cher" and a final line consisting of 7-8IP, 4-5hits, 0-1ER, 7-9K's and a big 'W.' I doubt his next two projected starts against us will be any different than before.

You wonder how Gardenhire can (publically) resolve issues with Lohse--even after his door was polverized with a baseball bat, yet problems with Marte have continued to its current state. Similarily, between the two players, resentment likely existed beyond Marte blowing off Schneider and Lohse venting frustration with Gardenhire's managerial decisions. It's just odd to me how the two are completely opposite scenarios with two completely different results. IMO, this is poor judgement on managements part. Was it necessary for Guillen to publically announce Marte's problems? It's a needless distraction for a team holding onto a division lead. We couldn't just sweep this under the rug and place him on the DL to void this discussion? Until more light is shed on this issue--which I hope does occur, I'll continue to hold my position this was a mistake. Now, on the issue of his importance to this pitching staff, it's certaintly possible to overcome his removal. He's shown himself to be a liability in pressure situations. Only two baseball players he's confident pitching against is Corie Koskie and Justin Morneau.

QUOTE(Kalapse @ Sep 12, 2005 -> 12:09 PM) Roy Oswalt was taken in the 23rd round by the Astros back in '96, probably one of the best examples of great scouting and using those late picks to your advantage. Some teams will just take a chance on a STUFF guy in the later rounds who noone really projects to be a major league caliber pitcher. A few of those guys make it and become great players. I'd like to add I don't believe the Sox should draft velocity alone and ignore success earned at high school/college level. I hope in future drafts, if we're choosing between two pitchers with comparable success for their respective teams, our scouts would prefer the pitcher with quality "stuff." However, I understand how it's just as easy to suggest our team should draft the best talent (good velocity or not) and take its chance in later rounds with someone who throws hard and possesses a quality arm.

QUOTE(southsideirish71 @ Sep 12, 2005 -> 10:25 AM) We face Liriano or Santana on Friday. OH f***ING JOY!!!!!!!! Either a guy who just owns us or a new rookie that hits 97 from the left side. Liriano will be the next Santana. His delivery even reminds me of Santana's. I watched him pitch against Texas last week and his offspeed pitches, while not located well, were still nearly 12 mph off his fastball. Even if he doesn't become their next ace, he'll only be another outstanding pitcher out of their bullpen throwing above 94 with a plus offspeed pitch. Every year their minor league is producing hard throwing pitching talent. Although Liriano was acquired from the Giants, he's hardly the exception to their drafting techniques. I've always believed in the first few rounds our organization should concentrate on drafting pitchers with good velocity. You can't teach that. With velocity as a starting base you can always develop a changeup, curveball, slider, etc. It's your middle rounds where you often find a Mark Buehlre, Erik Bedard, Brandon McCarthy. Even then, it's pure luck. Might as well have picked Buehlre or McCarthy's name out of a hat.

QUOTE(qwerty @ Sep 12, 2005 -> 12:55 AM) I have never liked the ozzie guillen signing. I really did/do not like the ozzie guillen extension only partially through the season? It's not like he is the greatest manager to ever be apart of the mlb and we do not want him possibly leaving via free agency. He has proved very little in his managerial career to get an extension so quickly... the white sox jumped the gun you could say. If management is honestly dissatisfied with him, I don't believe his paycheck would stand in the way of any firing. He's practically paid nothing as it is. That's one hurdle you can expect to avoid. If our team experiences a losing season under Guillen, it will become more difficult to tolerate his odd decisions and the noose will tighten. May not take one losing season for tides to shift, but two or so combined with "Ozzie being Ozzie" quotes will make him a target for criticism. s***, if we're unrelenting now with a 1st place team I'd hate to imagine how he'll fare with a team below .500.

Where's the mullet? And what exactly is in that bookbag?

QUOTE(longshot7 @ Sep 12, 2005 -> 12:34 AM) hey, what happened to the bash WSI thread? Oh, here it is. Good idea bumping this thread. Mods, you may want to move some of the posts in this thread (extending from the bottom of Pg. 3 into 4) which concern WSI's dictatorship.