Why a rebuild scares me

[Southwest Sider]

South Sider a lot of the points you are making are that they are from times past and not pertinent to the current situation.

 

My point is that the organization as a whole is the same as it has been for all of these moves and has been since the 90's.

 

KW and Buddy Bell are there and overseeing these things.

 

Very well. Truth be told I'm not supremely confident in the management group, especially KW because of the past. But I do think there are signs of positive progress within the organization, even with KW in charge. We'll just have to see how events unfold.

[jenksycat]

South Sider a lot of the points you are making are that they are from times past and not pertinent to the current situation.

 

My point is that the organization as a whole is the same as it has been for all of these moves and has been since the 90's.

 

KW and Buddy Bell are there and overseeing these things.

 

All of this is unprecedented though. You can't compare lackluster trades from the past to this as there has never been guys the level of Sale/Q and to lesser Abreu/Frazier available for them to trade.

 

I don't trust their development and scouting either, but they're dealing with trades for top prospects in all of baseball not a handful of lotto tickets. If you can turn those 4 players into 10-15 prospects with several that are MLB ready potential stars there's little concern in my opinion and the "lotto" ticket is the potential to have a playoff team in 2-3 years.

[Harry Chappas]

I like Hahn and think he could do it correctly. The problem will be running it through KW and then handing them off to Buddy Bell.

 

Then of course they will all be rushed to the big leagues prior to being ready.

 

 

 

 

[hi8is]

Just look at how far our farm has come since 2011 and how far it is poised to move forward as well...

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article....articleid=15761

[Dick Allen]

Buddy Bell isn't involved in acquisitions and evals he's in charge of overseeing the development of players in the minor leagues.

 

The people involved in this process are:

 

1.) KW/Hahn - negotiations, deal framework, risk diversification, money, etc. This has been mostly Hahn since even before he took over as GM. That doesn't mean he isn't acting under the direction of his boss though. Hopefully were past that.

2.) Jeremy Haber/Dan Fabian - Haber weighs in on evals and makes player recs. Fabian is the head of all analytics adding support or guidance where needed.

3.) Professional scouts - The guys who were scouting any player the Sox may potentially acquire back in July-September. They also scout the prospects in the AFL.

4.) Amateur scouts - They weigh in on guys who were recent draft picks. So for instance, the Southeastern amateur college scouts would give their notes on Benintendi and they would be vetted against the scouts in the Eastern League or more likely, the Carolina League who watched Benintendi this year. Plus you have a lot of scouts who are either higher in rank or assigned to cold or less fruitful areas who watch players like, say Cody Bellinger, in his high school showcases or National exposure games.

5.) Marco Paddy - If the Sox are trading with the Dodgers and Yadier Alvarez was in play, they'd call Marco Paddy who told me he specifically saw Alvarez when he was still in Cuba.

6.) Dan Stritmatter (sp?) - He handles video coordination and works hand-in-hand with Fabian. If they wanted to find tape of a lesser known guy who's rounding out a package this is where they turn.

 

The Sox FO's has been inadequate in plenty of different ways over the years. Even so, as much as the lazy narratives around here would lead you to think it's just Kenny Williams, Rick Hahn and in your case, Buddy Bell, just sitting in an office bulls***ting up a package that's simply not the case. They have been working and preparing for a trade with at least the Red Sox and Dodgers for almost a half year. Given what I was told around the deadline that never came into fruition, they've probably been set and prepared to sell just didn't get the okay from management until this offseason.

They are capable of making excellent trades. Eaton for Santiago was a steal.Everyone is going to miss. The good ones just don't do it as often. They can miss on the short term guys. But if they trade Sale, Q, or Eaton, that has to be looked back on 3 or 4 years from now fondly.

Edited November 15, 2016 by Dick Allen

[iamshack]

Buddy Bell isn't involved in acquisitions and evals he's in charge of overseeing the development of players in the minor leagues.

 

The people involved in this process are:

 

1.) KW/Hahn - negotiations, deal framework, risk diversification, money, etc. This has been mostly Hahn since even before he took over as GM. That doesn't mean he isn't acting under the direction of his boss though. Hopefully were past that.

2.) Jeremy Haber/Dan Fabian - Haber weighs in on evals and makes player recs. Fabian is the head of all analytics adding support or guidance where needed.

3.) Professional scouts - The guys who were scouting any player the Sox may potentially acquire back in July-September. They also scout the prospects in the AFL.

4.) Amateur scouts - They weigh in on guys who were recent draft picks. So for instance, the Southeastern amateur college scouts would give their notes on Benintendi and they would be vetted against the scouts in the Eastern League or more likely, the Carolina League who watched Benintendi this year. Plus you have a lot of scouts who are either higher in rank or assigned to cold or less fruitful areas who watch players like, say Cody Bellinger, in his high school showcases or National exposure games.

5.) Marco Paddy - If the Sox are trading with the Dodgers and Yadier Alvarez was in play, they'd call Marco Paddy who told me he specifically saw Alvarez when he was still in Cuba.

6.) Dan Stritmatter (sp?) - He handles video coordination and works hand-in-hand with Fabian. If they wanted to find tape of a lesser known guy who's rounding out a package this is where they turn.

 

The Sox FO's has been inadequate in plenty of different ways over the years. Even so, as much as the lazy narratives around here would lead you to think it's just Kenny Williams, Rick Hahn and in your case, Buddy Bell, just sitting in an office bulls***ting up a package that's simply not the case. They have been working and preparing for a trade with at least the Red Sox and Dodgers for almost a half year. Given what I was told around the deadline that never came into fruition, they've probably been set and prepared to sell just didn't get the okay from management until this offseason.

Great stuff there, Brian.

[elrockinMT]

Well said, good friend. I've already come to grips with seeing Sale in a different uniform. It is what it is. All I hope is the Sox improve from this process.

 

What I fear is unrealistic expectations and panic if trades aren't made. Reading these various threads makes you shake your head in wonder. Every Sox player is traded

[iamshack]

What I fear is unrealistic expectations and panic if trades aren't made. Reading these various threads makes you shake your head in wonder. Every Sox player is traded

Do you watch other teams play baseball, Rockin?

 

With all due respect, this roster is not winning.

[southsider2k5]

Buddy Bell isn't involved in acquisitions and evals he's in charge of overseeing the development of players in the minor leagues.

 

The people involved in this process are:

 

1.) KW/Hahn - negotiations, deal framework, risk diversification, money, etc. This has been mostly Hahn since even before he took over as GM. That doesn't mean he isn't acting under the direction of his boss though. Hopefully were past that.

2.) Jeremy Haber/Dan Fabian - Haber weighs in on evals and makes player recs. Fabian is the head of all analytics adding support or guidance where needed.

3.) Professional scouts - The guys who were scouting any player the Sox may potentially acquire back in July-September. They also scout the prospects in the AFL.

4.) Amateur scouts - They weigh in on guys who were recent draft picks. So for instance, the Southeastern amateur college scouts would give their notes on Benintendi and they would be vetted against the scouts in the Eastern League or more likely, the Carolina League who watched Benintendi this year. Plus you have a lot of scouts who are either higher in rank or assigned to cold or less fruitful areas who watch players like, say Cody Bellinger, in his high school showcases or National exposure games.

5.) Marco Paddy - If the Sox are trading with the Dodgers and Yadier Alvarez was in play, they'd call Marco Paddy who told me he specifically saw Alvarez when he was still in Cuba.

6.) Dan Stritmatter (sp?) - He handles video coordination and works hand-in-hand with Fabian. If they wanted to find tape of a lesser known guy who's rounding out a package this is where they turn.

 

The Sox FO's has been inadequate in plenty of different ways over the years. Even so, as much as the lazy narratives around here would lead you to think it's just Kenny Williams, Rick Hahn and in your case, Buddy Bell, just sitting in an office bulls***ting up a package that's simply not the case. They have been working and preparing for a trade with at least the Red Sox and Dodgers for almost a half year. Given what I was told around the deadline that never came into fruition, they've probably been set and prepared to sell just didn't get the okay from management until this offseason.

 

This is great insight. Thank you.

[Bigsoxhurt35]

Buddy Bell isn't involved in acquisitions and evals he's in charge of overseeing the development of players in the minor leagues.

 

The people involved in this process are:

 

1.) KW/Hahn - negotiations, deal framework, risk diversification, money, etc. This has been mostly Hahn since even before he took over as GM. That doesn't mean he isn't acting under the direction of his boss though. Hopefully were past that.

2.) Jeremy Haber/Dan Fabian - Haber weighs in on evals and makes player recs. Fabian is the head of all analytics adding support or guidance where needed.

3.) Professional scouts - The guys who were scouting any player the Sox may potentially acquire back in July-September. They also scout the prospects in the AFL.

4.) Amateur scouts - They weigh in on guys who were recent draft picks. So for instance, the Southeastern amateur college scouts would give their notes on Benintendi and they would be vetted against the scouts in the Eastern League or more likely, the Carolina League who watched Benintendi this year. Plus you have a lot of scouts who are either higher in rank or assigned to cold or less fruitful areas who watch players like, say Cody Bellinger, in his high school showcases or National exposure games.

5.) Marco Paddy - If the Sox are trading with the Dodgers and Yadier Alvarez was in play, they'd call Marco Paddy who told me he specifically saw Alvarez when he was still in Cuba.

6.) Dan Stritmatter (sp?) - He handles video coordination and works hand-in-hand with Fabian. If they wanted to find tape of a lesser known guy who's rounding out a package this is where they turn.

 

The Sox FO's has been inadequate in plenty of different ways over the years. Even so, as much as the lazy narratives around here would lead you to think it's just Kenny Williams, Rick Hahn and in your case, Buddy Bell, just sitting in an office bulls***ting up a package that's simply not the case. They have been working and preparing for a trade with at least the Red Sox and Dodgers for almost a half year. Given what I was told around the deadline that never came into fruition, they've probably been set and prepared to sell just didn't get the okay from management until this offseason.

 

 

This is fabulous insight man. Thank you very much.

[Harry Chappas]

Buddy Bell isn't involved in acquisitions and evals he's in charge of overseeing the development of players in the minor leagues.

 

The Sox FO's has been inadequate in plenty of different ways over the years. Even so, as much as the lazy narratives around here would lead you to think it's just Kenny Williams, Rick Hahn and in your case, Buddy Bell, just sitting in an office bulls***ting up a package that's simply not the case. They have been working and preparing for a trade with at least the Red Sox and Dodgers for almost a half year. Given what I was told around the deadline that never came into fruition, they've probably been set and prepared to sell just didn't get the okay from management until this offseason.

 

I get that Bell and Williams are not boots on teh ground guys. My issue is that I really cannot take what this organization has produced and see anything positive without putting on the rose colored glasses when it comes to taking players that need work and preparing them for the MLB.

 

Whoever scouted Avasail Garcia and thought he was a center fielder missed badly.

 

Whoever thought the athletic, raw baseball skillset draft idea, following the middle of the road college pitcher craze missed badly.

 

The inability to develop any type of hitting whatsoever is missing badly.

 

As an organization I do not think they have an offensive philosophy. Under Hostetler it appears that maybe they are looking for more OBP, now they need to develop them.

 

Maybe the tiger, zebra or whatever it is can change their stripes and I sure as hell hope they can.

Edited November 15, 2016 by Harry Chappas

[hi8is]

This is great insight. Thank you.

He should easily win an award for that post

[soxforlife05]

The scariest thing about a rebuild is expecting an organization that has a decade long streak of not developing position players for the most part will be depending on developing position players.

 

That is true but we will be left with nothing either way even if a rebuild fails versus 3 more fruitless seasons of going for it. All our players will be going to FA and none of them will be retained.

 

Assuming the trades aren't total failures we won't be facing a Padres rebuild.

Edited November 15, 2016 by soxforlife05

[caulfield12]

How is Chris Getz qualified again to work with 12-18 of the better prospects in baseball when he was the second rung from the bottom on his previous organization's management depth chart?

Edited November 15, 2016 by caulfield12

[Bigsoxhurt35]

This isn't an exact science. The Sox are the king of "awesome trade at the time" and then it never works out. Their moves have been applauded by all the big writers the past few offseasons not that it means anything but regardless, a lot of this is a crap shoot. As long as the Sox can stop acquiring veterans who inevitably perform in the 10-30th percentiles they'll be fine with a proper rebuild.

 

Avisail Garcia started seven games in centerfield in August and September of a season where the White Sox lost 99 games 3 years ago. Could you at least come up with a semi-pertinent gripe?

 

You're still complaining about the drafting strategy the Sox had two scouting directors ago...

 

You say they can't develop any hitting whatsoever. They just developed a franchise SS who they picked #17 overall in a bad draft. That SS put up more WAR in a half of one season than any player in that draft has that isn't named Kris Bryant. That player was supposed to be super raw and everyone b****ed (myself included) that the Sox moved him too quickly. He is one of the five most valuable assets in that draft and already the second most productive player from that draft. The following two years they selected the two most accomplished college pitching arms and followed it up with the most polished college bat. Your gripes are jaded and would be relevant in November of 2013 but times have changed.

 

Sox have already improved player development dramatically despite the 2013 narratives appearing ad nausem. If the Sox hit this rebuild right (some will get pissed, but it's not that hard to do with the assets they have at their disposal) they'll be in fine shape soon enough with financial flexibility and a load of young talent. As long as they don't continue to get of the worst return in the league on their investments in FA and inoffseason trades they should be in great position for playoffs come 2019. Would I want to be ready this year, of course, but it is what it is and at least they've addressed their issues (to your point, other than KW and Bell), they've picked a lane and they're doing what's best for the org.

 

Scouting and drafting in any sport isn't an exact science. You can hit or miss up and down the draft board.

[kitekrazy]

Also factoring in the White Sox aren't trading Sale for 18 year olds. They're targeting near ready players. Now I know there's no guarantee they hit but I'm confident in Hahn's ability to make the right deals. He's shown that while being our GM.

 

Like getting that James Shields guy. Adam LaRoche.......

[kitekrazy]

They are capable of making excellent trades. Eaton for Santiago was a steal.Everyone is going to miss. The good ones just don't do it as often. They can miss on the short term guys. But if they trade Sale, Q, or Eaton, that has to be looked back on 3 or 4 years from now fondly.

 

I'll fall off the bandwagon and be left behind. I believe you still build around pieces like that if they are cost controlled.

 

[caulfield12]

The entire foundation of "Hahn's good at this" is Eaton for Santiago...and if you're willing to give him (instead of KW and Paddy) credit for Jose Abreu.

 

Who's the one within the Sox organization who pushed hardest for Anderson?

 

We all have this scenario where KW was directly responsible for former footballer Courtney Hawkins, but why wasn't he equally responsible for Anderson, another raw/toolsy guy with more of a hoops background as a youngster?

[southsider2k5]

The entire foundation of "Hahn's good at this" is Eaton for Santiago...and if you're willing to give him (instead of KW and Paddy) credit for Jose Abreu.

 

Who's the one within the Sox organization who pushed hardest for Anderson?

 

We all have this scenario where KW was directly responsible for former footballer Courtney Hawkins, but why wasn't he equally responsible for Anderson, another raw/toolsy guy with more of a hoops background as a youngster?

 

I don't get the need to cannibalize the White Sox front office in these matters. They are a unit. The succeed or fail together. Even if one person "pushed" for a certain player, it takes a group effort from the scouts all of the way up to the top of management, and then back down through development to make A Tim Anderson happen. I know the movement these days is to get everything into a simple of a form as possible, but taking a college kid and turning him into a major league baseball player isn't just "who pushed hardest".

[Jose Abreu]

I'll fall off the bandwagon and be left behind. I believe you still build around pieces like that if they are cost controlled.

And how do you suggest we do that? We've been trying for years now. The market is bleak. Selling is the most logical step.

[jenksycat]

I'll fall off the bandwagon and be left behind. I believe you still build around pieces like that if they are cost controlled.

 

You're still on the bandwaggon now? This team is absolute garbage and has been for 8 of the last 10 years. There's no free agents, there's no money to sign free agents even if they were available, and limited non-ML assets to trade. There is no other option but trading at least 1 of these prime assets we have with the hope of acquiring 2-3 studs + more in trade for 1.

 

The only way they compete without a full white flag is get DD to give up Benny + Mocanda and have them be immediate studs in the ML, sign a FA catcher, sign Cespedes, and hope that: Rodon makes a huge leap, Gonzo wasn't a mirage, Shields isn't a high school pitcher, and Fulmer or Adams can be a ML starter. I see most of that as not being possible so you have to sell.

[Harry Chappas]

This isn't an exact science. The Sox are the king of "awesome trade at the time" and then it never works out. Their moves have been applauded by all the big writers the past few offseasons not that it means anything but regardless, a lot of this is a crap shoot. As long as the Sox can stop acquiring veterans who inevitably perform in the 10-30th percentiles they'll be fine with a proper rebuild.

 

Avisail Garcia started seven games in centerfield in August and September of a season where the White Sox lost 99 games 3 years ago. Could you at least come up with a semi-pertinent gripe?

 

You're still complaining about the drafting strategy the Sox had two scouting directors ago...

 

You say they can't develop any hitting whatsoever. They just developed a franchise SS who they picked #17 overall in a bad draft. That SS put up more WAR in a half of one season than any player in that draft has that isn't named Kris Bryant. That player was supposed to be super raw and everyone b****ed (myself included) that the Sox moved him too quickly. He is one of the five most valuable assets in that draft and already the second most productive player from that draft. The following two years they selected the two most accomplished college pitching arms and followed it up with the most polished college bat. Your gripes are jaded and would be relevant in November of 2013 but times have changed.

 

Sox have already improved player development dramatically despite the 2013 narratives appearing ad nausem. If the Sox hit this rebuild right (some will get pissed, but it's not that hard to do with the assets they have at their disposal) they'll be in fine shape soon enough with financial flexibility and a load of young talent. As long as they don't continue to get of the worst return in the league on their investments in FA and inoffseason trades they should be in great position for playoffs come 2019. Would I want to be ready this year, of course, but it is what it is and at least they've addressed their issues (to your point, other than KW and Bell), they've picked a lane and they're doing what's best for the org.

 

My semi-pertinent gripe has to do with the Sox trading for a guy that they believed to be a five tool player that may have one tool and is now a piece they are missing in a big way. That is a scouting failure of the type of player they are looking to get now. They hit on Eaton in a big way and missed on Davidson. The fact that Iglesias was the prize of the Peavy trade makes it worse to me.

 

The White Sox are in this predicament becasue they built a core and then could not fill in the pieces around them. This rebuild is unprecedented because the front office failed at their job. I along with the media liked the moves they did on paper. They need to win these moves in reality not on paper.

 

Their international activity is an area where they do not want to compete as well outside of one guy.

 

Hopefully they have remedied these things and you are right. I really hope hope my trepidation is unwarranted and I am just turning into an old bitter fan.

 

I have no problem with the rebuild and if there was a paradigm shift in the organization that would be wonderful.