Red Sox acquire Chris Sale, White Sox get Moncada+

[Black_Jack29]

You implied that Sale changing his approach to "pitching to contact" was because of injury concerns. Where's the proof?

 

You also implied that it's abnormal and cause for concern for a major league pitcher to experience dead arm periods.

 

It was more like "dead arm after the ASB" and "getting shelled in September" concerns.

 

[Balta1701]

If the Sox deal Quintana, they may as well nuke the entire team by dealing Abreu and Eaton as well. Because it sends the message that they're not going to even try to win for another three years.

 

It would be interesting, but I don't think that they deal Q and go the scorched-earth route. Too much money to lose at both the gate and negotiating table when the TV contract is up.

I was gung ho on moving Abreu until we traded for a top flight young Cuban. I'm a little more open to holding him now unless we get a good deal for him for that reason alone.

[chitownsportsfan]

Sale is a pitcher and subject to TINSSAAP like all the rest. He's inherently risky as a long term bet. Sox did well to move him while his value as still at peak. You wait until mid season you take a big risk that he gets injured or suffers performance decline.

[chitownsportsfan]

I was gung ho on moving Abreu until we traded for a top flight young Cuban. I'm a little more open to holding him now unless we get a good deal for him for that reason alone.

 

Jose should be held for no other reason then his value is low. If he rebuilds some value by midseason I'd be more inclined to move him. There's not much downside to keeping him IMO he's not blocking anybody and if he doesn't perform his contract won't break the bank.

[Dam8610]

What's the initial take from people regarding the return? Fair, overwhelmed, underwhelmed?

 

Fair, though I'm slightly disappointed because I'd hoped they would stop pursuing the overvalued assets like the Moncadas of the world and just focus on taking everything of value from a good farm system, the idea being that some of it would stick reasonably.

[RockRaines]

What, too much work for you??

 

@BNightengale

The #WhiteSox getting besieged with calls now for Jose Quintana, but the Sox are expected to step back, catch breath, before dealing him

Trying not to look desperate.

 

The Stros and Nats can offer up the same package for Q.

[BigHurt3515]

What's the initial take from people regarding the return? Fair, overwhelmed, underwhelmed?

Just a tiny bit underwhelmed but not upset or mad

[harkness99]

I really like this trade.

 

Chris is a warrior but I feel like he has some issues.... including that most teams in our division seem to light him up the last couple years.

[hi8is]

What, too much work for you??

 

@BNightengale

The #WhiteSox getting besieged with calls now for Jose Quintana, but the Sox are expected to step back, catch breath, before dealing him

Bulls*** - this is a white sox leak.

[Bob Sacamano]

What, too much work for you??

 

@BNightengale

The #WhiteSox getting besieged with calls now for Jose Quintana, but the Sox are expected to step back, catch breath, before dealing him

 

 

They have to take a break to reload on coffee and food.

[Black_Jack29]

I was gung ho on moving Abreu until we traded for a top flight young Cuban. I'm a little more open to holding him now unless we get a good deal for him for that reason alone.

 

Abreu is an interesting case, as his contract/team control has maybe a one-year overlap with the Sox's rebuilding process now (assuming that they don't go scorched-earth). If he can stay healthy this coming season, I'd be in favor of giving him a very generous three-year extension. A healthy Jose is a real boost to this lineup.

 

[southsider2k5]

You implied that Sale changing his approach to "pitching to contact" was because of injury concerns. Where's the proof?

 

You also implied that it's abnormal and cause for concern for a major league pitcher to experience dead arm periods.

 

Proof? Really? It was very clearly said during spring training they were going to dial back his effort this year on a pitch to pitch basis in order to make him last through the season and into the playoffs (if needed).

 

The move of the goalposts was that you said no one talked about Sale as an injury risk, which is 100% wrong, and then you switched it to "well everyone does that".

[bmags]

Abreu is an interesting case, as his contract/team control has maybe a one-year overlap with the Sox's rebuilding process now (assuming that they don't go scorched-earth). If he can stay healthy this coming season, I'd be in favor of giving him a very generous three-year extension. A healthy Jose is a real boost to this lineup.

 

Fine with that if we aren't getting anything more than fliers. We don't have 1b in our system to block.

[Balta1701]

Abreu is an interesting case, as his contract/team control has maybe a one-year overlap with the Sox's rebuilding process now (assuming that they don't go scorched-earth). If he can stay healthy this coming season, I'd be in favor of giving him a very generous three-year extension. A healthy Jose is a real boost to this lineup.

I'm iffy on that - my big issue is the performance dropoff. Stepping back and considering season by season, he's gotten progressively worse each year he's been here, and we haven't gotten a good reason why.

 

Maybe the problem in the 1st half last year was health. He's had health issues since he arrived, so we can't say "that will get better with time" because that's not how Health works. If the issue wasn't health, then we have no answer about why he is trending down or about what happened with his first half slump last year. Last thing you want to do is offer him another $60 million to extend for a couple years and then have him turn into Ryan Howard.

 

We've got 3 years of control left on him, at the very least I'd say add another year of data to see what his bat is like next year before you talk extension. If that costs us an extra $20 million in the long term I'm ok with that, that would mean his bat recovered next year and that's a gamble I'm ok with losing a bit.

[chitownsportsfan]

I'm iffy on that - my big issue is the performance dropoff. Stepping back and considering season by season, he's gotten progressively worse each year he's been here, and we haven't gotten a good reason why.

 

Maybe the problem in the 1st half last year was health. He's had health issues since he arrived, so we can't say "that will get better with time" because that's not how Health works. If the issue wasn't health, then we have no answer about why he is trending down or about what happened with his first half slump last year. Last thing you want to do is offer him another $60 million to extend for a couple years and then have him turn into Ryan Howard.

 

We've got 3 years of control left on him, at the very least I'd say add another year of data to see what his bat is like next year before you talk extension. If that costs us an extra $20 million in the long term I'm ok with that, that would mean his bat recovered next year and that's a gamble I'm ok with losing a bit.

 

As I've said before: the simplest explanation is that's he's not 29, he's 32.

[greg775]

It would be interesting, but I don't think that they deal Q and go the scorched-earth route. Too much money to lose at both the gate and negotiating table when the TV contract is up.

I think they will go the scorched earth route.

But let's say they don't do that.

Today's trade would give the Sox a great infield of Frazier, Anderson, Moncada and Abreu. I guess they could sign two journeyman starting pitchers in free agency and still have a chance of contending. Fat chance, however. The scorched earth scenario is coming. I don't think they care that the team will lose 100 games 2-3 seasons in a row. They want the Cub-like rebuild.

[gatnom]

What's the initial take from people regarding the return? Fair, overwhelmed, underwhelmed?

 

Fair trade for the most part. A little disappointed they weren't able to get a fifth player in the deal, though.

 

 

[Balta1701]

As I've said before: the simplest explanation is that's he's not 29, he's 32.

If they even suspect that is possible, then you take the best offer you can for him.

[hi8is]

Fair trade for the most part. A little disappointed they weren't able to get a fifth player in the deal, though.

Find solace that they got almost 32mm instead. That could buy anything from a top tier ace to three 2 WAR type players in 2019 or 2020.

[bmags]

Just a tiny bit underwhelmed but not upset or mad

 

Yeah, I definitely thought we'd get some more breadth to the trade with Sale, now am nervous how much depth we can truly acquire.

 

Q will be interesting. Do you insist on a top 20 prospect or live in the 25-75 range where more teams have multiple.

 

Wondering about 3 team trade with Pirates that probably makes no sense as I'm unsure how much they care about STILL competing next year. But a deal where we send eaton to Pit and get meadows/bell, 3rd team gets mccutcheon and sends other cheap ML-verging help to prospects back.

 

I'm guessing eaton for meadows/bell is not what they are about htough.

[chitownsportsfan]

If they even suspect that is possible, then you take the best offer you can for him.

 

Yes you do. Of course, if he bounces back this year that throws a wrench into my argument. But his decline so far looks like a pretty standard aging curve from late 20s to early 30s.

[Saufley]

I think they will go the scorched earth route.

But let's say they don't do that.

Today's trade would give the Sox a great infield of Frazier, Anderson, Moncada and Abreu. I guess they could sign two journeyman starting pitchers in free agency and still have a chance of contending. Fat chance, however. The scorched earth scenario is coming. I don't think they care that the team will lose 100 games 2-3 seasons in a row. They want the Cub-like rebuild.

 

I'd like to see that Cub-like rebuild also. Waiting for the next move.

 

Edited December 6, 2016 by Saufley

[chitownsportsfan]

Find solace that they got almost 32mm instead. That could buy anything from a top tier ace to three 2 WAR type players in 2019 or 2020.

 

My understanding is they already paid him about 20 million of the 31 million dollar bonus. The other 31 million was tax, which the White Sox won't be paying. So in essence they got 11 million thrown into the deal. Not quite as good as 31 million but not bad either.

[Black_Jack29]

I'm iffy on that - my big issue is the performance dropoff. Stepping back and considering season by season, he's gotten progressively worse each year he's been here, and we haven't gotten a good reason why.

 

Maybe the problem in the 1st half last year was health. He's had health issues since he arrived, so we can't say "that will get better with time" because that's not how Health works. If the issue wasn't health, then we have no answer about why he is trending down or about what happened with his first half slump last year. Last thing you want to do is offer him another $60 million to extend for a couple years and then have him turn into Ryan Howard.

 

We've got 3 years of control left on him, at the very least I'd say add another year of data to see what his bat is like next year before you talk extension. If that costs us an extra $20 million in the long term I'm ok with that, that would mean his bat recovered next year and that's a gamble I'm ok with losing a bit.

 

My understanding is that he was hobbled by a leg injury early last season. If that's true, it would explain why he was still getting on base but couldn't hit with power early on, and then began tearing the cover off the ball in August.

 

So I don't think that there's a skills loss yet, but I agree that he may become more of an injury risk over time. (I'm also skeptical of his age, as players who come out of Cuba are sometimes older than what their documentation indicates.) And that's why I'd want to see him play a full, healthy season next year and put up 2015 numbers before extending him through 2020 or 2021.

 

I recall reading that Jose opted into arbitration recently. Is that true? If so, does that mean that he's out of his current contract and year-to-year now?

 

[Balta1701]

Yes you do. Of course, if he bounces back this year that throws a wrench into my argument. But his decline so far looks like a pretty standard aging curve from late 20s to early 30s.

It's definitely early if he's only 29.