6 minutes ago, chitownsportsfan said:

steamer projects a .316 OBP.  I'm dying here fam.  Imagine trying to defend a player on a .316 OBP.  Of course when the Sox had a team OBP of .302 in 2018 maybe in the land of the blind the .316 guy is a fucking king.

Jon Jay's career OBP is over 350.  

1 minute ago, soxfan2014 said:

.278

engel wrc+ - 70

Jay wrc+ - 83

fWar - .1

fWar -.1

I personally don't think Hahn for a second is just doing this signing to actually improve the club through adding Jon Jay, I think he learned his lesson.

I think many on this site are buying into the old logic that replacing a player they don't like with a veteran marginal signing will be an improvement, and just don't sell me that. Jay is a piece of a puzzle, if he's by himself it's not something to cheerlead.

1 hour ago, BigHurt3515 said:

Jay is the perfect 9 hitter, you people are nuts.

I disagree. It is not "nuts" to bat Jay second. He has hit there for a great portion of his career. "Caulfield" suggested that those extra at bats, at the top of the order, should go to Jimenez, Palka or Anderson. The problem is that none of those guys profile as a #2 hitter. The objective is to get some men on base, for the middle of the order to drive them in. Jimenez and Palka are those kind of hitters RBI guys. Anderson could be a great leadoff hitter, if he could get on base, but he doesn't. If they sign Machado, based on the logic that you want the better hitter to bat 2ND, I assume that you would want to hit him there. Unfortunately, he wouldn't drive in many runs, hitting in the two hole. I suspect that he would not be very happy hitting there, and one could not blame him.

 

2 hours ago, Dick Allen said:

Until he signed, no one mentioned Jay as an nice option for this team. So you can try to spin it all you want. This signing is for one purpose. If it works, outstanding. If it doesn't, eventually all these $9 million, and $4 million gambles will add up. 

Add up to what ? Are the Sox already in luxury tax territory ? No ? OK hmm. Are they long term contracts ? No ? Will these short term contracts prevent the Sox from signing better players like a big pitcher next year ? No ? So yeah who cares ? Gripe whine troll 101 arguing over nothing.

1 hour ago, GREEDY said:

This is all fine and dandy.... but if the it comes out that Manny signed with the Phillies and they outbid the Sox by 20 million, people are going to lose their minds.  It is just money until you don't have enough.  You know what some clubs would give to be able to clear $13,000,000 off their payroll?  I think it is perfectly reasonable to question and discuss why the Sox have spent $62,000,000 since the winter meetings on Stop-Gap types.  

If the Sox don’t sign Machado or Harper, there’s nothing else they need to save money for this year. They needed some random depth anyway. If it wasn’t Jay it would be some other random. 

A lot of clubs WOULD go a long way to clear $13m in payroll. The 2019 White Sox, entering year three of a rebuild with next to nothing on the books and trying to collect and develop long term assets, are NOT one of those clubs. 

44 minutes ago, GREEDY said:

 

You said  "Again, OPS is not that relevant for a #2 hole hitter. Focus on OBP"

I said "Yikes"

You tell me I'll be disappointed in Madrigal?  

What the what?

Seriously, OPS is a relevant statistic for all players.  Please reconsider this very poor taek. 

 

 

 

My point was simply to reiterate that OBP is the more relevant stat for a #2 hitter. OPS is weighted heavily by the Slugging %. Since Madrigal is likely not going to ever put up a big SLG %, he is not going to have a high OPS. Nevertheless, he could turn out to be a prototypical #2 hitter, providing he can get on base, at a good rate. 

35 minutes ago, bmags said:

engel wrc+ - 70

Jay wrc+ - 83

fWar - .1

fWar -.1

I personally don't think Hahn for a second is just doing this signing to actually improve the club through adding Jon Jay, I think he learned his lesson.

I think many on this site are buying into the old logic that replacing a player they don't like with a veteran marginal signing will be an improvement, and just don't sell me that. Jay is a piece of a puzzle, if he's by himself it's not something to cheerlead.

Engel's projections are with 434 PAs and Jay's are with 203 PAs. Obviously if they put up the same fWAR next year then Jay is twice the player Engel is!

2 minutes ago, TomPickle said:

Engel's projections are with 434 PAs and Jay's are with 203 PAs. Obviously if they put up the same fWAR next year then Jay is twice the player Engel is!

But the answer was with us all along, Leury Garcia, king of kings, is also projected to have .1 in 275 ABs. Combine the two together like a megazord and you got yourself a stew going.

you can't defend this signing without the manny angle (no, saying he's better than Engel ain't it) so some folks are gonna die on that hill.

Let me go on the record, stating that if Jay's OBP ends up being .313, or anywhere near that Steamer projection, then I will be disappointed, as that is his best offensive tool. If I believed that was the most likely kind of production to be expected from him, I would rather play Engel, because of the upside potential.

 

3 minutes ago, Lillian said:

Let me go on the record, stating that if Jay's OBP ends up being .313, or anywhere near that Steamer projection, then I will be disappointed, as that is his best offensive tool. If I believed that was the most likely kind of production to be expected from him, I would rather play Engel, because of the upside potential.

 

What upside?  He's 27 and has never hit higher than .264 outside of rookie ball.

2 hours ago, Dick Allen said:

I am really not nearly as dense as some try to make me. I know the checks aren't going to bounce. I am merely saying they have spent $13 million and are still a 95 loss team. If that $13 million reels in Machado, it's great.  It is money well spent. If not, it's $13 million that won't be in the checking account when you are actually adding players to win games. At some point, that $13 million makes a difference for every team. 

By that logic we should have a lot of extra money from the money we didn't spend the 1st 2 years of the rebuild on the 25 man rosters.

7 minutes ago, chitownsportsfan said:

you can't defend this signing without the manny angle (no, saying he's better than Engel ain't it) so some folks are gonna die on that hill.

I mean you can.  Even if Manny doesn't sign, John Jay is a decent upgrade over Adam Engel.  You might not like it, but the numbers are there.  If we aren't chasing Manny, I would rather see Engel get the ABs out there to see if he can learn to hit, and basically punt on 2019.  But the Manny factor is something.

1 minute ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

By that logic we should have a lot of extra money from the money we didn't spend the 1st 2 years of the rebuild on the 25 man rosters.

Which is why they are actually making bids for Machado and Harper. 

12 minutes ago, bmags said:

But the answer was with us all along, Leury Garcia, king of kings, is also projected to have .1 in 275 ABs. Combine the two together like a megazord and you got yourself a stew going.

If you got Leury's bat and arm with Adam's glove and health, you would have an actual starting CF.

1 minute ago, southsider2k5 said:

I mean you can.  Even if Manny doesn't sign, John Jay is a decent upgrade over Adam Engel.  You might not like it, but the numbers are there.  If we aren't chasing Manny, I would rather see Engel get the ABs out there to see if he can learn to hit, and basically punt on 2019.  But the Manny factor is something.

If they don't sign manny and jon jay nets the Sox the 5th pick instead of the 3rd imma bump this conversation my friend.  throwing a single penny at a marginal player like jay is a no go in a rebuild year.

Just now, chitownsportsfan said:

If they don't sign manny and jon jay nets the Sox the 5th pick instead of the 3rd imma bump this conversation my friend.  throwing a single penny at a marginal player like jay is a no go in a rebuild year.

I spent all winter agreeing with this logic, but there is one asterisk.  If it gets you Manny, you do it.  If you THINK it could get you Manny, you still do it.  I couldn't care less about John Jay's production in 2019, unless he produces us Manny Machado.

 

12 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

I spent all winter agreeing with this logic, but there is one asterisk.  If it gets you Manny, you do it.  If you THINK it could get you Manny, you still do it.  I couldn't care less about John Jay's production in 2019, unless he produces us Manny Machado.

fair enough.  there are too many known unknowns here.  but again the "friends and family plan" isn't SOP so if the unusual methods don't work I think in hindsight we can evaluate them pretty well.  if it nets manny Hahn just earned himself the right to see out this rebuild.  

if it doesn't?  I'd say Hahn should be fired.

In other news, who do we think is DFA'd or outrighted for Herrera and Jay?

I am going with Tilson and Clarkin.  

Edit: Sounds like Clarkin just went for Herrera.  So Tilson is my guess! 

Edited January 8, 20197 yr by ChiSox59

2 minutes ago, chitownsportsfan said:

fair enough.  there are too many known unknowns here.  but again the "friends and family plan" isn't SOP so if the unusual methods don't work I think in hindsight we can evaluate them pretty well.  if it nets manny Hahn just earned himself the right to see out this rebuild.  

if it doesn't?  I'd say Hahn should be fired.

Hahn should be fired for trying to get Manny by acquiring these two guys? I think he should have been fired if he didn't try everything to get him, regardless if it works. 

Just now, ChiSox59 said:

In other news, who do we think is DFA'd or outrighted for Herrera and Jay?

I am going with Tilson and Clarkin.  

I agree. 

6 minutes ago, chitownsportsfan said:

fair enough.  there are too many known unknowns here.  but again the "friends and family plan" isn't SOP so if the unusual methods don't work I think in hindsight we can evaluate them pretty well.  if it nets manny Hahn just earned himself the right to see out this rebuild.  

if it doesn't?  I'd say Hahn should be fired.

Eh, it isn't that serious.  If it fails, you move on.

10 minutes ago, aeichhor said:

 

Had to get that Cubs mention in somewhere Bruce.

One would have to think that there has been some communication between Sox management and the Machado camp, on this matter of signing Manny's friends. Of course, we have no idea what the nature of that communication is. Wouldn't we all love to know? The signings have been spaced far enough apart, that there must have been some discussion of this tactic, between the two camps.