5 minutes ago, ron883 said:

We've gone through this before. You and I have differing views on the responsibilities and roles of a training staff

Don't think there is really too much variation in it. The athletic training staff is not responsible for changing mechanics or pitching philosophy.

That's usually the pitching coach.

Edited March 19, 20197 yr by ptatc

49 minutes ago, ron883 said:

We've gone through this before. You and I have differing views on the responsibilities and roles of a training staff

Yes. I want to hear you lecture the guy who actually gets paid to do this for as living as to how he should be doing his job. lmfao.

1 minute ago, southsider2k5 said:

Yes. I want to hear you lecture the guy who actually gets paid to do this for as living as to how he should be doing his job. lmfao.

Yeah, and doctor's used to think blood letting was the way to go. Ptatc's methods may be antiquated for all we know.

Just now, ron883 said:

Yeah, and doctor's used to think blood letting was the way to go. Ptatc's methods may be antiquated for all we know.

If they are, it isn't going to be you that knows how and why. Just stop while you are behind. 

1 minute ago, ron883 said:

Yeah, and doctor's used to think blood letting was the way to go. Ptatc's methods may be antiquated for all we know.

The process of who is responsible for what within the MLB medical team doesn't change much. It's not the science part of the field. 

They need more analytics about why some are prone to this and what stresses to avoid. I also suspect supplements could play a role. 

 

37 minutes ago, pcq said:

They need more analytics about why some are prone to this and what stresses to avoid. I also suspect supplements could play a role. 

They've done some pretty good biomechanical analysis.  I posted one recent article that showed pitcher who have their release point more laterally away from their head are more likely to have UCL surgery. This implies what we know from cadaver research that the lower the arm angle the more stress on the ligament.

Why do they always say so and so underwent successful TJ surgery? Doesn't anyone ever undergo unsuccessful TJ surgery?

Just now, Dick Allen said:

Why do they always say so and so underwent successful TJ surgery? Doesn't anyone ever undergo unsuccessful TJ surgery?

Well there is the 1 in 10,000 chance of dying under  general anesthesia. ?

51 minutes ago, ptatc said:

Well there is the 1 in 10,000 chance of dying under  general anesthesia. ?

That high!?!!?!

1 minute ago, BigHurt3515 said:

That high!?!!?!

That's from a study on the high side other list it as 1 in 100,000 depending on the sample. 

This include all procedures under general anesthesia including cardiac and procedures on the really sick people.

In the young healthy population it's closer to the 1 in 100,000. 

However this underscores some of the issues when posters say, he just should get it done last, when they thought he may not need it but could need it in the future. It's very unlikely someone would die but it is a possibility.  Dont go under general anesthesia unless you have to. They may not have even done it in this case. They may have just doped him up and done a nerve block on his arm.

Sox should offer him a 5 year 4 million contract today. 6th year 12 million option 2 million buyout. He might sign it if he's still woozy from the gas.

18 minutes ago, ptatc said:

That's from a study on the high side other list it as 1 in 100,000 depending on the sample. 

This include all procedures under general anesthesia including cardiac and procedures on the really sick people.

In the young healthy population it's closer to the 1 in 100,000. 

However this underscores some of the issues when posters say, he just should get it done last, when they thought he may not need it but could need it in the future. It's very unlikely someone would die but it is a possibility.  Dont go under general anesthesia unless you have to. They may not have even done it in this case. They may have just doped him up and done a nerve block on his arm.

That still seems like...impossibly high. 

It's a sad sign of how beaten down we are as a fanbase that news this big has only a couple of pages of discussion (half of which is the usual bickering between posters).  This is a gut punch.

 

5 minutes ago, 35thstreetswarm said:

It's a sad sign of how beaten down we are as a fanbase that news this big has only a couple of pages of discussion (half of which is the usual bickering between posters).  This is a gut punch.

Sign of the times. The writing has been on the wall for Dunning for quite some time though so this news wasn't unexpected.

It's time to hunker down and sit through another 2-3 years of tanking baseball on the South Side. Continuing to the stock farm with high draft picks should be priority #1.

25 minutes ago, OneDog847 said:

 

Sign of the times. The writing has been on the wall for Dunning for quite some time though so this news wasn't unexpected.

It's time to hunker down and sit through another 2-3 years of tanking baseball on the South Side. Continuing to the stock farm with high draft picks should be priority #1.

Yeah, this is where I'm at. I think the window is more like 2021 at the earliest now. If they go out and make a ton of trades and signings for 2020 to try to become competitive I'm going to be pretty damn frustrated because they'll probably be right back where they were in 2016.

15 hours ago, Soxfest said:

Wasted all last year this should of been done last June.

 

15 hours ago, Dam8610 said:

If it was done last June he'd be back by the end of this year.

Please stop saying this crap. It is unfounded in anything factual.

TJS is a procedure to replace ligament tissue, either from elsewhere in the body or cadaverous material. It is done to replace a TORN UCL. If there is nothing torn, there is nothing to replace. If Dunning has a strained/sprained UCL that did not include a tear, then the only viable option was to try the heal/strengthen route and then ramp him up again. Sometimes that works, sometimes it doesn't.

You can think the Sox training/medical staff has made mistakes, and maybe they have. But do you really think they would KNOW there was a significant tear, and try to avoid the surgery anyway? That helps literally no one, the Sox or the player or anyone else. There is zero motivation for that. Therefore, clearly there was no significant tear yet, so they took the only medically responsible path available to them.

This sucks, but the conspiracy theories are ridiculous.

 

15 hours ago, ptatc said:

They had this scheduled by at least last week. He will be back next year probably by July if all goes well. It's not 18 months to begin pitching its usually takes about 7 months before they are back on the mound. Games around 9-11 months. The is usually when they are feeling normal.

I think I've starting to come up with a new theory about why so many UCLs are happening. I made a 15 hour drive from Colorado listening to MLB. They were discussing how the new players were benefitting from all of the weight lifting and such but it's fine since they were maintaining their flexibility. This is not a new thought. We know that the throwing motion creates enough force to tear the UCL with each throw and the muscles around it are what helps keep it together. However, what if we've increased the strength in the body to the point that the force generated by the muscles during the throwing motion has surpassed the forces at the elbow to protect the UCL? So is the "new" pitcher too strong for the ligament, not so much in the arm but in the rest of the body?

Just a thought.

I am have a new line of biomechanical research. 

Average return time is 18 months https://tht.fangraphs.com/ten-interesting-facts-about-tommy-john-surgery/ albeit there are cases under a year. With a prospect they likely will go conservative though, maybe we see hin at the end of the 2020 season.

Edited March 19, 20197 yr by dominik-keul@gmx.de

34 minutes ago, NorthSideSox72 said:

 

Please stop saying this crap. It is unfounded in anything factual.

TJS is a procedure to replace ligament tissue, either from elsewhere in the body or cadaverous material. It is done to replace a TORN UCL. If there is nothing torn, there is nothing to replace. If Dunning has a strained/sprained UCL that did not include a tear, then the only viable option was to try the heal/strengthen route and then ramp him up again. Sometimes that works, sometimes it doesn't.

You can think the Sox training/medical staff has made mistakes, and maybe they have. But do you really think they would KNOW there was a significant tear, and try to avoid the surgery anyway? That helps literally no one, the Sox or the player or anyone else. There is zero motivation for that. Therefore, clearly there was no significant tear yet, so they took the only medically responsible path available to them.

This sucks, but the conspiracy theories are ridiculous.

 

Thank you.  Seriously, thank you.  What people are talking about here is medical negligence.

Such a bummer.  I am certainly not a doctor, but just seems like this should have been done last summer.  Dunning is now behind the 8 ball. He isn't that young.  

Edited March 19, 20197 yr by ChiSox59

Just now, ChiSox59 said:

Such a bummer.  I am certainly not a doctor, but just seems like this should have been done last summer.  Dunning is now behind the 8 ball. He isn't that young.  

Again, not possible. Stop saying this. No tear, no TJS.

 

4 minutes ago, NorthSideSox72 said:

Again, not possible. Stop saying this. No tear, no TJS.

 

Do we know for a fact there wasn't a slight tear and they tried to rehab it?  

3 minutes ago, NorthSideSox72 said:

Again, not possible. Stop saying this. No tear, no TJS.

 

I’m sorry but this is not nearly as open and shut as you suggest. Per what we have been told in this forum by our expert, assesssing the degree of a tear based on either physical examination or MRI is nowhere near this straightforward. The injury last summer was probably a partial tear, sometimes those are able to partially or fully heal with rest (see Tanaka) but not always, and assessing the exact degree of a tear without the surgery has been suggested to be very difficult. While rehab is always preferable if possible, you cannot simply say “there was no tear last year” as open and shut as you’re saying here. The MRI often can’t show that.

3 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

Do we know for a fact there wasn't a slight tear and they tried to rehab it?  

See Ohtani, Shohei, one of the important players ever to come over from Japan.  Similar situations in terms of hoping for the situstion to turn around on its own, along with the possibility of contending with him purely as a hitter.

Mickey Adolfo would be another.

Tanaka also comes to mind over an extended period...where they did platelet injections and all kinds of tricks to get him through it to the other side still intact.

Edited March 19, 20197 yr by caulfield12