1 minute ago, Balta1701 said:

And yet things like "giving up on a player they shouldn't have given up on and trading him away for a closer in a losing season" and "failing to do anything with their international funds despite a 2 year head start" are things that both hamper the future and look exactly like the past. 

If we were the ones that traded Colome for Narvaez, you'd be the first to point out that Narvaez has horrible batted ball metrics and is a major regression candidate

13 minutes ago, kevo880 said:

Agreed. The over reactions are hilarious. If there was a solid offer for Colome then he would be gone. No point in giving our players away. No one else that would make sense to trade holds enough value to get anything back anyways. It is what it is at this point. The only people throwing fits are the ones that hate the front office and will attack them about every little decision.

Eh not making bad trades or no trades doesn't bother me I think the FO is inept but think of it more like it's all on Reindorf . It not coincidence that Bulls and Sox FO's operate in the same manner. Don't want to spend money on intl. prospects ,don't want to have another minor league team, don't want to spend money on upgrades, don't want to fire anyone, base acquiring a FA superstar on his loyalty to friends and family. HMM loyalty , sure sounds a lot like Reinsdorf.

1 minute ago, Jose Abreu said:

If we were the ones that traded Colome for Narvaez, you'd be the first to point out that Narvaez has horrible batted ball metrics and is a major regression candidate

Were you the one who predicted a falloff from him back in May? Because despite that hard contact number, he's been very consistent with the bats all year and his numbers in July are his best of the season. His BABIP on the year is almost identical to last year yet he's improved his power game. 

5 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

And yet things like "giving up on a player they shouldn't have given up on and trading him away for a closer in a losing season" and "failing to do anything with their international funds despite a 2 year head start" are things that both hamper the future and look exactly like the past. 

I understand the frustration on the international level, but I personally don't miss Narvaez. Not great defensively and will probably regress offensively. According to BR Narvaez is at a 1.7 WAR this season while the guy we signed to replace him is at 2.5...

And if we still had Narvaez and/or Smith, we wouldn't have signed Mccann.   

5 minutes ago, kevo880 said:

I understand the frustration on the international level, but I personally don't miss Narvaez. Not great defensively and will probably regress offensively. According to BR Narvaez is at a 1.7 WAR this season while the guy we signed to replace him is at 2.5...

McCann's definitely been a good signing, but we only have control of him for 1 more season. So far the org seems to have no idea what they're doing with Collins, so McCann and Narvaez as the catching spot in 2020 would have made for a really strong tandem behind the plate if McCann can keep this up while still giving Narvaez a chance to grow, which he has done this year. You could then either give McCann a $30 million contract as a free agent after 2020 if he keeps this up or look for a cheaper option if Narvaez improves. 

It's a big loss to give up 5 years of a young catcher to get 2 years of a closer, when 1 of those years your team isn't even close to competitive, and when your team has enough money to sign 4 different closer candidates if they want to. 

Narvaez has gone from 0.1 to to 0.9 to 1.0 to 1.5 fWAR (2019) and still under control for 3 more years.

Seems like progression.

Meanwhile, we still don't have a future catcher, and are currently putting 25% of our eggs in McCann not regressing any further and 75% into the pursuit of Yasmani Grandal.

If you compare 4 years of McCann having an overall negative value to that line, it's obvious.   Hahn's just extremely fortunate that McCann has been the ONE good move he made so far that makes him look good...

By bWAR, 1.2, 1.9 and 1.7 (on pace for 2.9ish)

2 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Narvaez has gone from 0.1 to to 0.9 to 1.0 to 1.5 fWAR (2019) and still under control for 3 more years.

Seems like progression.

Meanwhile, we still don't have a future catcher, and are currently putting 25% of our eggs in McCann not regressing any further and 75% into the pursuit of Yasmani Grandal.

If you compare 4 years of McCann having an overall negative value to that line, it's obvious.   Hahn's just extremely fortunate that McCann has been the ONE good move he made so far that makes him look good...

By bWAR, 1.2, 1.9 and 1.7 (on pace for 2.9ish)

Who is "we"

Edit: I'm talking about the 75%/25% Grandal thing.

Edited July 31, 20196 yr by Nardiwashere

3 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

McCann's definitely been a good signing, but we only have control of him for 1 more season. So far the org seems to have no idea what they're doing with Collins, so McCann and Narvaez as the catching spot in 2020 would have made for a really strong tandem behind the plate if McCann can keep this up while still giving Narvaez a chance to grow, which he has done this year. You could then either give McCann a $30 million contract as a free agent after 2020 if he keeps this up or look for a cheaper option if Narvaez improves. 

It's a big loss to give up 5 years of a young catcher to get 2 years of a closer, when 1 of those years your team isn't even close to competitive, and when your team has enough money to sign 4 different closer candidates if they want to. 

He hasn't been keeping it up for the past month and a half now.

4 minutes ago, Nardiwashere said:

And if we still had Narvaez and/or Smith, we wouldn't have signed Mccann.   

Except playing McCann everyday is wearing him down to the point where he's not the same player he was in the first half...since Renteria also wants to DH Castillo, or he will continue to get those at-bats when Reed is released because we're afraid of completely pop the Collins confidence balloon.

7 minutes ago, kevo880 said:

I understand the frustration on the international level, but I personally don't miss Narvaez. Not great defensively and will probably regress offensively. According to BR Narvaez is at a 1.7 WAR this season while the guy we signed to replace him is at 2.5...

Oh and one more. All offseason people screamed at me "You have to use Baseball Prospectus WAR for catchers because that's the only one that captures defense and framing!". 

Narvaez has outperformed McCann on that.

Just now, Nardiwashere said:

Who is "we"

Don't be that guy. Our money goes to the team that we are supporting. We're a part of it. 

8 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Were you the one who predicted a falloff from him back in May? Because despite that hard contact number, he's been very consistent with the bats all year and his numbers in July are his best of the season. His BABIP on the year is almost identical to last year yet he's improved his power game. 

Cool. The sox traded a bad defensive catcher for a closer to help their staff and bullpen. Then they signed a navarez replacement for 1.5 million who has been just as good as navarez and they have a nice bullpen piece to. Good moves by Hahn and a good decision to bring a better receiver for the young staff... yet people are still complaining. Weird stuff.

I would rather have McCann and Colome than Navarez. I don't know about you.

1 minute ago, Nardiwashere said:

Who is "we"

The Chicago American League ballclub

Just now, soxfan2014 said:

Don't be that guy. Our money goes to the team that we are supporting. We're a part of it. 

 

Just now, caulfield12 said:

The Chicago American League ballclub

 

I edited my post after I reread it... I meant the Grandal 25%/75% stuff.  Where is that coming from?

3 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

McCann's definitely been a good signing, but we only have control of him for 1 more season. So far the org seems to have no idea what they're doing with Collins, so McCann and Narvaez as the catching spot in 2020 would have made for a really strong tandem behind the plate if McCann can keep this up while still giving Narvaez a chance to grow, which he has done this year. You could then either give McCann a $30 million contract as a free agent after 2020 if he keeps this up or look for a cheaper option if Narvaez improves. 

It's a big loss to give up 5 years of a young catcher to get 2 years of a closer, when 1 of those years your team isn't even close to competitive, and when your team has enough money to sign 4 different closer candidates if they want to. 

I think the organization knows what it wants for Collins. To me it seemed like Renteria wasn't on that same page during his cup of coffee though. I think the plan is for him to be the back up catcher and keep his bat in the lineup at first base/DH most days of the week. I'd be surprised if the plan isn't for McCann to be the starter for the next few years, but who knows. I understand his offensive production is vastly improved this season, but his value on D is always there which is huge with our young pitching staff and mentoring young catchers in Collins and Zavala.

Just now, Nardiwashere said:

 

 

I edited my post after I reread it... I meant the Grandal 25%/75% stuff.  Where is that coming from?

Oh you were actually questioning who he was referring to. My bad.

3 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Oh and one more. All offseason people screamed at me "You have to use Baseball Prospectus WAR for catchers because that's the only one that captures defense and framing!". 

Narvaez has outperformed McCann on that.

That's interesting. I'll be the first to admit I'm not the most savvy guy in the world when it comes to advanced metrics. I think another thing to take note of though is I don't think Narvaez's D improves like that with the Sox coaching.

4 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Cool. The sox traded a bad defensive catcher for a closer to help their staff and bullpen. Then they signed a navarez replacement for 1.5 million who has been just as good as navarez and they have a nice bullpen piece to. Good moves by Hahn and a good decision to bring a better receiver for the young staff... yet people are still complaining. Weird stuff.

I would rather have McCann and Colome than Navarez. I don't know about you.

I'd rather have McCann and a couple mid-level prospects.  

2 minutes ago, Harold's Leg Lift said:

I'd rather have McCann and a couple mid-level prospects.  

Ok.

I find that having a nice bullpen piece or two may help with the confidence of a young staff. To each their own.

9 minutes ago, Harold's Leg Lift said:

I'd rather have McCann and a couple mid-level prospects.  

And then trade something better for a closer in the off-season?

12 minutes ago, soxfan2014 said:

He hasn't been keeping it up for the past month and a half now.

Catcher is a grueling position. He was very consistently good the 1st half. That's baseball. Players get tired they have peaks and valleys.. He's probably got 5x more WAR than anyone expected from him this year.

1 hour ago, kevo880 said:

And that's fine. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I just don't think there is any reason for people to act irrationally about today. We've already shipped out everyone that was a trade-able asset. Now it's hopefully one more top 10 pick, sign a RF and a starter, and let our prospects develop into major league players. Regardless if we make the playoffs next season or not, it's going to be a hell of a lot more fun when you add Robert, Madrigal, Kopech, and whoever else to this team.

Thing is, modern baseball means injuries. Moncada out again; Eloy has missed time. Timmy. I'm not blaming them as injuries happen, but if this pattern continues, I don't think the rebuild will ever pay off. I guess it's wait and see.

I think that's a cop out though. Injuries happen. If you take the top 3 players off any team then that team isn't going to be as good. Yes, injuries will happen.

2 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

With where this day and roster went I can't complain about Hahn holding this player. However, I have one passive-aggressive request.

Can we please retire the notion that it's smart to pay a substantial price for a reliever in the offseason because the price for them will be so much higher at the trade deadline? We heard that with both Colome and with Herrera. 

Guys value only goes up if they get better. If you pay a high price for the guy, you better want him on your roster. 

Narvaez wasn’t a high price at the time.