11 minutes ago, TheCommish said:

Prove to me you need an ACE to win the World Series? 

https://www.baseball-reference.com/postseason/2021_ALDS1.shtml

Edited November 9, 20214 yr by Harold's Leg Lift

6 minutes ago, TheCommish said:

Prove to me you need an ACE to win the World Series? 

We literally just saw two teams go at it for the WS with barely 3 starters each and underwhelming aces on each staff. 

People need to get off this fixation on "we need more starting pitching."    That's a luxury at this point, especially when your team has limited resources on where to invest.

Get me a well rounded lineup and tighten up the bullpen.    That's what wins in October these days. 

 

5 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

Giolito and Lynn are every bit as good as Fried and Anderson.  And Kopech and Cease aren't far behind. On an fWAR basis, Cease was better than all of them.  

I’d go Lynn and Morton as much better comps. Anderson this year is hopefully where Kopech might be next year. Unfortunately this season Fried was solidly better than Giolito, maybe that swings the other way next year but that’s just what they were.

7 minutes ago, HOFHurt35 said:

We literally just saw two teams go at it for the WS with barely 3 starters each and underwhelming aces on each staff. 

People need to get off this fixation on "we need more starting pitching."    That's a luxury at this point, especially when your team has limited resources on where to invest.

Get me a well rounded lineup and tighten up the bullpen.    That's what wins in October these days. 

 

I’d say it was absolutely a mix of both. Big games by Anderson and Fried were key for the Braves in being able to deploy their bullpen the way they wanted. Their bullpen holding the line allowed them to survive the loss of Morton. If the Astros had one more starter ready and didn’t have to go to short rest Valdez, do they push that to a game 7? Decent shot.

You need a balance. The white Sox aren’t far from having that, but they probably have to overdo it on several parts to overcome the issues in their coaching staff.

19 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

Giolito and Lynn are every bit as good as Fried and Anderson.  And Kopech and Cease aren't far behind. On an fWAR basis, Cease was better than all of them.  

2019-20 Giolito? Sure 2021 Giolito? No. He took a step backward this year. Not nearly as much bat missing. 

Edited November 9, 20214 yr by Jack Parkman

21 minutes ago, Dam8610 said:

Wouldn't that be Max Scherzer? Would 2/$60 with a $30 million team option and $10 million buyout (making it either 2/$70 or 3/$90) be enough to get him?

Gonna say no.  He’s always wrong but Bowden had him getting 3/150

The Sox starters pitched a total of 12.1 innings against Houston and had a 10.21 ERA.  They can't just run them out there again next year and hope they're better.  

 

I don't think it is safe to say Gio took 'a step backward' this season. His K rate was down, but so were hard hit balls, and walk rate.

1 minute ago, Capn12 said:

https://i.postimg.cc/PrndGmyw/image.png

 

I don't think it is safe to say Gio took 'a step backward' this season. His K rate was down, but so were hard hit balls, and walk rate.

That's the thing that predicts the most sustained success. 

1 hour ago, Chicago White Sox said:

If you want to question what the better addition would have been between Kimbrel and Bryant that’s fine, but don’t say Heuer was going to put up better numbers than the guy who was the best reliever in baseball at the time.  These revisionist opinions are maddening.

It's also big time revisionist history to pretend that outside of Liam, the pen hadn't been a dumpster fire during the time leading up to the deadline, and also that Heuer really got better with the Cubs.

Regardless of Gio and his season, want/need #1 should be a legit second baseman and right fielder. Go scour for some pitching, afterwards. You have to depend on Lynn/Giolito/Cease and a combination of ReyLo/Kopech/etc to fill it out. RF is a barren hole, and second base can't be a 'let Leury have it plus platoon' situation.

12 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

I’d go Lynn and Morton as much better comps. Anderson this year is hopefully where Kopech might be next year. Unfortunately this season Fried was solidly better than Giolito, maybe that swings the other way next year but that’s just what they were.

You just cited both Fried and Anderson as aces as if they were obviously superior to the Sox SP. 

Giolito had a higher fWAR, more Ks, better K/9, and lower opponent batting average.  Fried had a better era, but xERA and xFIP were close.  I'd give Fried a slight nod in overall 2021 performance, but it was close.  I don't think Fried is some slam dunk ace if Gioltio isn't.

Gio was pretty clearly better than Anderson this season. 

If we're talking ace as in one of the best 5-8 SP in the games, none of them are.  But again, the Sox SP is every bit as good as the Braves SP who just won the WS.  

23 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Fried and Anderson? The 2020 Dodgers? 2019 Nats? 2018 Red Sox with some dude named Sale? Verlander and a trash can in 2017? 

See Cain 2012, Bumgarner in 2012 and especially 14…the Cubs had Arrieta, Lester and Hendricks in 2016.

Royals in 2014-15 the only counterexample, Chris Young their best numbers and Yordano Ventura ace stuff but not yet fulfilling his full potential.

9 hours ago, Chisoxfn said:

I like Conforto - but I think it is too much money for a player who is good, not great.  The fit etc is not bad...I just prefer shorter term deals or saying screw it and signing Scherzer to something stupid for 2 years (not that he will take it).  

What’s your answer for RF then? Because this team’s idea of shorter deals involve the Adam Eatons of the world and don’t tend to pan out. Conforto has a career wRC+ of 124. That’s a very good player, especially for a guy you’ll be asking to hit in the bottom third of the order.

The comparisons to Melky are ridiculous. Melky had 2 good years of above average production using that metric. Cabrera barely finished above average for his career at 101. Conforto has been a much better player in those regards. Given the options out there, he fits with this team and makes a ton of sense.

4 minutes ago, Capn12 said:

Regardless of Gio and his season, want/need #1 should be a legit second baseman and right fielder. Go scour for some pitching, afterwards. You have to depend on Lynn/Giolito/Cease and a combination of ReyLo/Kopech/etc to fill it out. RF is a barren hole, and second base can't be a 'let Leury have it plus platoon' situation.

It’s not as sexy as an everyday starter, but equal to those needs for the current roster are bullpen help and bench help. Right now Romy and Engel are the 2b and RF starters, if those positions are filled they become weak bench options and there’s still an open spot. Backup C is a big hole. The bullpen is losing Kopech and Tepera as of now, Lopez and Kimbrel are question marks at best. These may be solved readily, but they can’t be ignored.

Morton was great this postseason he just broke his leg. I don't know how anyone could have watched the sox in a 4 game series give up what, 6, 9, 5, 10 after a previous year where pitching also imploded in playoffs and say "yeah, pitching's good". Playoff pitching is an entirely different beast and I don't care what anyone says, it just is. The Braves can now go into every year knowing they have two bonafide postseason studs. The sox will go into next year not knowing if their starting pitchers will start walking 5 guys in the third.

11 minutes ago, fathom said:

Gonna say no.  He’s always wrong but Bowden had him getting 3/150

lol.

If you want scherzer you have to flatte rhim by making him the highest paid AAV pitcher.

4 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

You just cited both Fried and Anderson as aces as if they were obviously superior to the Sox SP. 

Giolito had a higher fWAR, more Ks, better K/9, and lower opponent batting average.  Fried had a better era, but xERA and xFIP were close.  I'd give Fried a slight nod in overall 2021 performance, but it was close.  I don't think Fried is some slam dunk ace if Gioltio isn't.

Gio was pretty clearly better than Anderson this season. 

If we're talking ace as in one of the best 5-8 SP in the games, none of them are.  But again, the Sox SP is every bit as good as the Braves SP who just won the WS.  

Gios counting stats were higher because of innings pitched though - the Braves didn’t push as many onto Fried as the White Sox did on Gio, at least until the postseason. I can’t disagree with saying it was close, but this season you wanted Fried out there if you had to win a playoff start and had the choice.

12 minutes ago, Harold's Leg Lift said:

The Sox starters pitched a total of 12.1 innings against Houston and had a 10.21 ERA.  They can't just run them out there again next year and hope they're better.  

Yep, let's all blow it up again an restart another rebuild.  All because of 12 inning sample size. 

 

Edited November 9, 20214 yr by HOFHurt35

Just now, Balta1701 said:

Gios counting stats were higher because of innings pitched though - the Braves didn’t push as many onto Fried as the White Sox did on Gio, at least until the postseason. I can’t disagree with saying it was close, but this season you wanted Fried out there if you had to win a playoff start and had the choice.

So the Braves rested their starters?

2 minutes ago, bmags said:

Morton was great this postseason he just broke his leg. I don't know how anyone could have watched the sox in a 4 game series give up what, 6, 9, 5, 10 after a previous year where pitching also imploded in playoffs and say "yeah, pitching's good". Playoff pitching is an entirely different beast and I don't care what anyone says, it just is. The Braves can now go into every year knowing they have two bonafide postseason studs. The sox will go into next year not knowing if their starting pitchers will start walking 5 guys in the third.

Said at the time - roughly half of those runs were avoidable with better coaching. So while pitching does have its issues, don’t dump blame onto the pitchers for not being able to do things they should never have been asked to do.

4 minutes ago, HOFHurt35 said:

Yep, let's all blow it up again an restart another rebuild.  All because of 12 inning sample size. 

 

13 minutes ago, CWSpalehoseCWS said:

What’s your answer for RF then? Because this team’s idea of shorter deals involve the Adam Eatons of the world and don’t tend to pan out. Conforto has a career wRC+ of 124. That’s a very good player, especially for a guy you’ll be asking to hit in the bottom third of the order.

The comparisons to Melky are ridiculous. Melky had 2 good years of above average production using that metric. Cabrera barely finished above average for his career at 101. Conforto has been a much better player in those regards. Given the options out there, he fits with this team and makes a ton of sense.

Cabrera had 4.4, 4.8, 3.5 bWAR in 3/4 seasons before signing.

=12.7/3=4.233

Do we expect Conforto to beat that?

Hmmm….And he got 3/$42 million seven years ago.   Adjust for inflation, $48,666,666.

4/$65 extrapolated out over four seasons, to adjust for Cabrera being older.

 

Exactly the same contract everyone’s speculating on Conforto receiving to win his services.

Or was Rick Hahn simply overvaluing/overpaying Cabrera…?  Ah yes, that domino effect to get Robertson and LaRoche on the Sox FA bandwagon, too.

Hmmmmm.

Edited November 9, 20214 yr by caulfield12

8 minutes ago, HOFHurt35 said:

Yep, let's all blow it up again an restart another rebuild.  All because of 12 inning sample size. 

 

Exactly.  Such a lazy take.  But lets hand a 38 year old worn down Scherzer 30% of our budget for 22!  What  could possibly go wrong? 

Edited November 9, 20214 yr by ChiSox59