2 hours ago, vilehoopster said:

I understand the examples I'm giving are completely typical of fans in general and of forum posters in particular, but still, the absolute certainty that some posters express on this board that this move or that move was wrong long after it happened, when they for that move before it happened or when it happened, that is really tough to take at times. 

Plenty of fans thought may of the moves (Kimbrel, e.g.) were bad at the time.
Regardless, the FO should be accountable for actual results.  Yes many well-intended and constructed moves don't work out.  But in the aggregate, they should.

Also, as someone who even the last two years thought they were good, but not good enough...I find this thread a bit insulting. 

 

8 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

Also, as someone who even the last two years thought they were good, but not good enough...I find this thread a bit insulting. 

 

We should just shut up and appreciate having a team to cheer for still in Chicago, basically.

I hated the Kimbrel trade as I was a big Nicky 2 strikes fan. 

The trade made no sense as we had a closer in Hendriks who was pretty damn good last year. I liked the addition of Tepera but not at the expense of Madrigal, but then we didn't resign Tepera and we sure could use him with the performance of the bullpen this year.

6 minutes ago, The Mighty Mite said:

I hated the Kimbrel trade as I was a big Nicky 2 strikes fan. 

The trade made no sense as we had a closer in Hendriks who was pretty damn good last year. I liked the addition of Tepera but not at the expense of Madrigal, but then we didn't resign Tepera and we sure could use him with the performance of the bullpen this year.

FYI, Tepera was a separate move from the Madrigal-Kimbrel deal.

7 minutes ago, The Mighty Mite said:

I hated the Kimbrel trade as I was a big Nicky 2 strikes fan. 

The trade made no sense as we had a closer in Hendriks who was pretty damn good last year. I liked the addition of Tepera but not at the expense of Madrigal, but then we didn't resign Tepera and we sure could use him with the performance of the bullpen this year.

Tepera has a 4.26 ERA this year, his walk rate is 66% higher than last year and his k rate is about 40% lower so far. Only looks good compared to Kelly.

47 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Them: “there’s too much revisionist history on this site.”

Me: “Here’s the 5000 words I wrote in a 2019 thread on the theme that Rick Hahn is the worst GM in baseball.”

(you’ve got me on being dumb enough to like the Kimbrel trade because I didn’t look at any of his advanced stats and just assumed RH had. Oops.)

I probably also wrote something similar predicting how the rebuild would turn out . Maybe it was a little bit later than 2019 , maybe somewhere in 2020. Would take too much time to try and find it. But my reasoning was basically the Sox are gonna Sox it up because the whole organization is bad from the top on down and then they could use the excuses of Covid and the strike and whatever else they could blame for their own inadequacies .

I think everyone knew the White Sox offseason was anemic this year. Looking in hindsight, it appears almost any move they made would have been bad. The problem I had though, and still do, is the fact they didn't go for the jugular. There is still 120 games left, so they can turn it around, however, if you are sleepwalking now, what are you going to be doing in the dog days of August?

57 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

The only reason I liked the Kimbrel deal is because it got Madrigal of the team and I was sick of the written fellatio. 

Also, you don't take Crochet at 11th overall if you're not going to be patient and start him. 

I admit I was a Crochet fan, as those are the risks you have to take outside the top 10. 

Burger got hurt, not much you can do there. 

I will complain about Madrigal and Vaughn forever. Vaughn is a good player but wasting the 3rd overall pick on a player that is blocked is dumb. 

At the time of the 2018 draft I was just glad that they didn't take Singer but in retrospect that would have been a better pick than Madrigal. 

 

Drafting for need and not the player they consider the best is a mistake everytime especially in baseball where the hit rate is so low.

1 minute ago, ptatc said:

Drafting for need and not the player they consider the best is a mistake everytime especially in baseball where the hit rate is so low.

I never consider a 1B the best player available in the top 5. You can't be wasting those on 1st basemen. 

2 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

I never consider a 1B the best player available in the top 5. You can't be wasting those on 1st basemen. 

Good thing the top 5 in the 1989 draft agreed with you.

6 minutes ago, CentralChamps21 said:

Good thing the top 5 in the 1989 draft agreed with you.

Frank was a special hitter and that's the exception to the rule. He was taken 7th overall and that's where you take a player like Vaughn. 

Like right now I'd rather have Abrams. 

Edited May 27, 20223 yr by Jack Parkman

5 minutes ago, CentralChamps21 said:

Good thing the top 5 in the 1989 draft agreed with you.

4 White Sox MVPs in the history of the franchise. 3 of them have been 1B. It's incredible his hatred of the position.

2 hours ago, vilehoopster said:

As I read so many people complain about how things went wrong and continue to go wrong, I get a little tired of people on here saying that Hahn was a complete idiot for this move or that move or for signing this player. What drives me a little crazy is that I have to believe a ton of those people pitching the biggest fit, were totally for those moves when they happened, but seem to have conveniently forgotten that.  Let's give some examples. 

Grandal: When Grandal became available as a free agent, poster after poster was on here was saying how the Sox need to grab him, how great his defense was, how great his framing is and how much with his framing he would help our pitchers. "He's the best catcher in baseball"; that kind of stuff. When the Sox signed him, people on here were losing it in their happiness. "What a great signing."  There was a clear majority of people who thought Grandal would bring all that to the Sox and posting it on this board. Now, all I read is what an idiot Hahn was for signing this aging, falling-apart veteran who is terrible defensively. It is so clearly hypocritical for these same posters, and there has to be a lot of them now, who are bashing Hahn for doing something they agreed with at the time.  

Kimbrel: After the Sox signed him, I came on here wondering if it was a good move. I would guess, at least, 90% of the posters were ecstatic about that trade. Some wondered with we really wanted to trade young talent for an older, unreliable reliever. A few were against it. But 90% of the posters were creaming their pants, "This is such a great move."  "The window is open now. We're going for it."  Just poster after poster, after poster thinking this was the best move ever. After reading all that, I got really excited about the trade too. Yet, now everyone on here claims that Hahn was a moron for making this move. Again, the revisionist history is hard to take. 

How many people on here were stating that the Sox needed to unload Abreu and not sign him three or so years ago? "Trade him, trade him while he still has value." It wasn't a strong majority, but there was a majority that wanted to not sign him. What happened? He won the MVP the next year. No one admits they're wrong on that one. 

More recently, Tons and tons of posters on here were repeatedly saying that Hahn was letting the organization down and "we need him for the window" screaming that Hahn NEEDED to sign Conforto. How did that one turn out?  Are those people who were so wrong on that one, are they the same people on here saying that Hahn is an idiot and needs to be fired. I would bet that a lot of them are. So here is an example of Hahn doing the right thing by not making a move, a move that many, many posters wanted him to make. Yet again, Hahn was correct, but those same posters, without admitting they were wrong, continue to demand that Hahn be fired. 

I understand the examples I'm giving are completely typical of fans in general and of forum posters in particular, but still, the absolute certainty that some posters express on this board that this move or that move was wrong long after it happened, when they for that move before it happened or when it happened, that is really tough to take at times. 

 

 

The VAST majority of this board (including myself) were against the Kimbrel trade. That's simply wrong. Also, the vast majority here are TEPID on the Grandal signing, but definitely not ecstatic. 

12 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

I never consider a 1B the best player available in the top 5. You can't be wasting those on 1st basemen. 

The Sox didn't, they drafted a 1B/2B/OF.

10 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

I never consider a 1B the best player available in the top 5. You can't be wasting those on 1st basemen. 

Just because you think that doesn't make it right. Detroit also drafted Torkelson high. Apparently there are a few MLB GMs disagree with you.

Besides that wasn't what you said. You said don't draft him because he was blocked.  Which implies don't take the player you consider the best because they already have an MLB player at his position. Which is always wrong.

15 minutes ago, ptatc said:

Just because you think that doesn't make it right. Detroit also drafted Torkelson high. Apparently there are a few MLB GMs disagree with you.

Besides that wasn't what you said. You said don't draft him because he was blocked.  Which implies don't take the player you consider the best because they already have an MLB player at his position. Which is always wrong.

Ok, you got me there but I thought Abrams was the best player at the time and I still think that. 

Us fans don't get paid to make the decisions. All of us are part time GMs at best. Of COURSE we get to change out opinions on moves after the fact. We're not getting fucking paid to make them at the time we are fans!

I was lukewarm on the Kimbrel trade but now in hindsight I'm horribly down on it, even if Madrigal never produces another MLB hit (he's got what, 2800 more to 3K?). We're allowed to consider more data. I've changed my position on TLR for example. Only a fool stays steadfast in opinions and beliefs that have been proven wrong by the passage of time.

A thread complaining about all the threads that complain too much.  Most Soxtalk thing ever!  Seriously, RH hyped a “championship window” then built a team that is .500 over its last 120 games while also being nearly unwatchable.  He deserves criticism even if all of us were as stupid as he is, which we weren’t.  Frankly, complaining about them is the only joy most of us get out of watching this dull and listless team. Please do not begrudge us our simple pleasures.

Edited May 27, 20223 yr by Timmy U

3 hours ago, vilehoopster said:

As I read so many people complain about how things went wrong and continue to go wrong, I get a little tired of people on here saying that Hahn was a complete idiot for this move or that move or for signing this player. What drives me a little crazy is that I have to believe a ton of those people pitching the biggest fit, were totally for those moves when they happened, but seem to have conveniently forgotten that.  Let's give some examples. 

Grandal: When Grandal became available as a free agent, poster after poster was on here was saying how the Sox need to grab him, how great his defense was, how great his framing is and how much with his framing he would help our pitchers. "He's the best catcher in baseball"; that kind of stuff. When the Sox signed him, people on here were losing it in their happiness. "What a great signing."  There was a clear majority of people who thought Grandal would bring all that to the Sox and posting it on this board. Now, all I read is what an idiot Hahn was for signing this aging, falling-apart veteran who is terrible defensively. It is so clearly hypocritical for these same posters, and there has to be a lot of them now, who are bashing Hahn for doing something they agreed with at the time.  

Kimbrel: After the Sox signed him, I came on here wondering if it was a good move. I would guess, at least, 90% of the posters were ecstatic about that trade. Some wondered with we really wanted to trade young talent for an older, unreliable reliever. A few were against it. But 90% of the posters were creaming their pants, "This is such a great move."  "The window is open now. We're going for it."  Just poster after poster, after poster thinking this was the best move ever. After reading all that, I got really excited about the trade too. Yet, now everyone on here claims that Hahn was a moron for making this move. Again, the revisionist history is hard to take. 

How many people on here were stating that the Sox needed to unload Abreu and not sign him three or so years ago? "Trade him, trade him while he still has value." It wasn't a strong majority, but there was a majority that wanted to not sign him. What happened? He won the MVP the next year. No one admits they're wrong on that one. 

More recently, Tons and tons of posters on here were repeatedly saying that Hahn was letting the organization down and "we need him for the window" screaming that Hahn NEEDED to sign Conforto. How did that one turn out?  Are those people who were so wrong on that one, are they the same people on here saying that Hahn is an idiot and needs to be fired. I would bet that a lot of them are. So here is an example of Hahn doing the right thing by not making a move, a move that many, many posters wanted him to make. Yet again, Hahn was correct, but those same posters, without admitting they were wrong, continue to demand that Hahn be fired. 

I understand the examples I'm giving are completely typical of fans in general and of forum posters in particular, but still, the absolute certainty that some posters express on this board that this move or that move was wrong long after it happened, when they for that move before it happened or when it happened, that is really tough to take at times. 

 

 

Thanks Rick!

1 hour ago, 35thstreetswarm said:

I don’t really get the criticism of the thread, or the confusion about it.  It’s not a specific defense of all Hahn’s moves, or a criticism of all criticism of the team.  I read it as a commentary on a specific type of posting habit here, i.e. a tendency to flip positions on moves only after they don’t turn out well.  Feel free to take issue with the actual prevalence of that habit, but seems pretty clear to me that’s the point and it’s a logically consistent one, at least in theory.

I mean, what else are we supposed to do? 

If I was a fan of them acquiring Kimbrel, but then it doesn't work out and he's awful.......it was a bad move. I can still understand the process behind it, but I expect the GM of the team I root for to be smarter than me. 

I'll put it another way. If Rick Hahn makes 10 moves, and I like 8 of them, great. But if those 8 moves that I liked end up not working for the Sox...that probably means the team doesn't have a good record, and I probably no longer want Rick Hahn as the GM of my team. He doesn't get a pass for building a flawed team because I was excited about a move at the time. 

13 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

Ok, you got me there but I thought Abrams was the best player at the time and I still think that. 

That's fine but would you not have drafted him because TA was at short?

3 hours ago, vilehoopster said:

As I read so many people complain about how things went wrong and continue to go wrong, I get a little tired of people on here saying that Hahn was a complete idiot for this move or that move or for signing this player. What drives me a little crazy is that I have to believe a ton of those people pitching the biggest fit, were totally for those moves when they happened, but seem to have conveniently forgotten that.  Let's give some examples. 

Grandal: When Grandal became available as a free agent, poster after poster was on here was saying how the Sox need to grab him, how great his defense was, how great his framing is and how much with his framing he would help our pitchers. "He's the best catcher in baseball"; that kind of stuff. When the Sox signed him, people on here were losing it in their happiness. "What a great signing."  There was a clear majority of people who thought Grandal would bring all that to the Sox and posting it on this board. Now, all I read is what an idiot Hahn was for signing this aging, falling-apart veteran who is terrible defensively. It is so clearly hypocritical for these same posters, and there has to be a lot of them now, who are bashing Hahn for doing something they agreed with at the time.  

Kimbrel: After the Sox signed him, I came on here wondering if it was a good move. I would guess, at least, 90% of the posters were ecstatic about that trade. Some wondered with we really wanted to trade young talent for an older, unreliable reliever. A few were against it. But 90% of the posters were creaming their pants, "This is such a great move."  "The window is open now. We're going for it."  Just poster after poster, after poster thinking this was the best move ever. After reading all that, I got really excited about the trade too. Yet, now everyone on here claims that Hahn was a moron for making this move. Again, the revisionist history is hard to take. 

How many people on here were stating that the Sox needed to unload Abreu and not sign him three or so years ago? "Trade him, trade him while he still has value." It wasn't a strong majority, but there was a majority that wanted to not sign him. What happened? He won the MVP the next year. No one admits they're wrong on that one. 

More recently, Tons and tons of posters on here were repeatedly saying that Hahn was letting the organization down and "we need him for the window" screaming that Hahn NEEDED to sign Conforto. How did that one turn out?  Are those people who were so wrong on that one, are they the same people on here saying that Hahn is an idiot and needs to be fired. I would bet that a lot of them are. So here is an example of Hahn doing the right thing by not making a move, a move that many, many posters wanted him to make. Yet again, Hahn was correct, but those same posters, without admitting they were wrong, continue to demand that Hahn be fired. 

I understand the examples I'm giving are completely typical of fans in general and of forum posters in particular, but still, the absolute certainty that some posters express on this board that this move or that move was wrong long after it happened, when they for that move before it happened or when it happened, that is really tough to take at times. 

 

 

Some guys are just nervous guys.  They look to blame when things go wrong and also look for credit when things go right.  
 

These are awful traits in adult males.   And when a bunch of them come together and form a mob of nervous guys…well then the heads must roll!  Guillotines!

 

i think this has been going on for centuries, but I get that it’s particularly offensive in the modern era of reading it online.  
 

Hang in there brother

It's a sports message board. What did you expect a conversation on biological impact of fish in Bolivia?

17 minutes ago, ptatc said:

That's fine but would you not have drafted him because TA was at short?

Yes, because he's not a 1B/DH only player. 

There are only 2 spots for 1B/DH and because Jerry isn't going to let Abreu go until he wants to AND Eloy is only 25 years old they're kind of full. They've experimented with Vaughn in the corner OF and it's not working. If the Sox do the right thing and let Abreu walk after this year it's not a huge issue. 

Edited May 27, 20223 yr by Jack Parkman