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Lip Man 1
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24 minutes ago, JoeC said:

Seemingly off-topic for this thread, but this is my primary beef with the "call up Colas" movement.

Just because someone puts up good numbers in AAA (or, in his case, AA), it doesn't mean that he doesn't have significant holes in his game that will keep him from being a serviceable big league player.

Again, I hope Project Birmingham is designed to address things like this and give players more practice time to work on those holes in their games.

AA to the majors is a big big leap.

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13 hours ago, Lip Man 1 said:

I'll be curious how many angry, upset fans like yourself make their feeling known to the Sox. It can't hurt in my opinion. I've already let my friends/contacts in the front office know how I feel and will do the same at season's end yet again.

I may divorce myself.  I don't live in the viewing area anymore. New ownership is needed but that doesn't always mean things get better.  At first it did when Veeck sold the team and you have Fisk and Luzinski bringing excitement.   Then something like Sportsvision and the strike just alienates the casual fan.

Once again Reinsdorf hijacks any chance of success by bringing in TLR.

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7 hours ago, Tony said:

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When people say this team is "immensely talented" ( post I replied to) isn't that what Hahn was supposed to do? 

I said at the beginning of the season it's a third place team so I was all in on firing him. But after Balta and others showed me that this roster, on paper, was better, I've changed my mind. 

 

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16 minutes ago, Texsox said:

When people say this team is "immensely talented" ( post I replied to) isn't that what Hahn was supposed to do? 

I said at the beginning of the season it's a third place team so I was all in on firing him. But after Balta and others showed me that this roster, on paper, was better, I've changed my mind. 

 

Some of the other details hit on Rick Hahn negatively as well.

The team is very talented, but there is virtually zero depth. Rick has built a roster that is extremely top heavy, and if it starts to wobble it risks falling over. This is hugely on Rick Hahn's drafting and developing and trading over the past several years. It should still be a 90 win roster, but a 100 win roster needs the depth to make trades or to replace guys when they get hurt. 

Andrew Vaughn is a solidly talented player and I would not be surprised if he was an all star next year. Andrew Vaughn needs someone to teach him to pull the ball off big league pitching in most of his at bats and the White Sox have a hitting coach who has a record of teaching guys to go the other way. Andrew Vaughn is the worst corner OF in the league and should never have played there without a backup plan. All of those things are true, 1 of them compliments Rick Hahn and 2 of them are negatives. 

Some of the real baffling moves - I'm not sure whether they go to Hahn or GM LaRussa. There were specific press reports that LaRussa wanted Kelly signed, thought we'd love him by the end of the year. Is that on Hahn and the press reports are wrong? Do we give Hahn credit for LaRussa making a terrible move, or do we blame Hahn for not stopping a terrible move? Leury probably goes in that pile also. 

The simplest answer is just clean house. There should be so much blame to go around for a disappointment this big that it shouldn't matter if Hahn or LaRussa signed Kelly, they both screwed up plenty.

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From my vantage point, there has been too much laxity and forgiveness of poor playing performance. Accountability and expectations begin with the manager and require follow through by the support of both the front office and the entire coaching staff. The underperforming and underachieving players on the White Sox are coddled as if they are emotionally fragile and necessitate the treatment given to a tempermental nine year old playing his first year of organized baseball.  Moncada, Robert, and Eloy rose too quickly to the majors without marinating in minor league baseball where they would have been instructed "how to play the game properly" creating the time and opportunity for correcting their flaws and improving their skill sets. Moncada and Robert, particularly, are playing on natural skills only, lacking execution of the finer points of the game. There are too many young millionnaires on the roster who did not earn their lofty financial status; success should be earned through actual performance rather than based upon forecasts of future performance. Perception follows reality. The reality is that Robert, Moncada, and possibly Eloy will have careers no more distinguished than Joreg Soler and Avi Garcia. 

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Hahn stans will point to Cueto and Andrus, but both those moves were borne of desperation with few other options available.

Same with Rodon last year.

 

How do you go from such an impressive young core of a team to what is now a mismatched mix of veterans across the pitching staff and bullpen in particular?

Trying to sell high on Jimenez or Vaughn now just creates another set of problems down the road.  Likewise, betting on Grandal, Pollock, Sheets, etc., even Andrus or Harrison, for 2023, is fool’s gold.

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19 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Hahn stans will point to Cueto and Andrus, but both those moves were borne of desperation with few other options available.

Same with Rodon last year.

 

How do you go from such an impressive young core of a team to what is now a mismatched mix of veterans across the pitching staff and bullpen in particular?

Trying to sell high on Jimenez or Vaughn now just creates another set of problems down the road.  Likewise, betting on Grandal, Pollock, Sheets, etc., even Andrus or Harrison, for 2023, is fool’s gold.

The best players on the team are on the downside for this team.  One was out of baseball and another DFA'd.

It seems the only thing the Sox have some success is dumpster diving.

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26 minutes ago, kitekrazy said:

The best players on the team are on the downside for this team.  One was out of baseball and another DFA'd.

It seems the only thing the Sox have some success is dumpster diving.

It’s very obvious we need better infield performance…everyone left of 1B.

Ramirez and Gimenez alone might have the entire Sox lineup beaten for fWAR.

And that’s actually the Guardians’ biggest farm system strength too.

 

Finally, now that Myles Straw is starting to hit well, they have a really formidable team at every position besides catcher and Owen Miller if you want to count him as a starter…and to me he has a lot of glue guy/Doug Mientkiewicz to his game.

So now you’ve got six guys across that lineup who pressure you every at bat with their contact ability, speed and athleticism…and the streaky poor man’s CLee in Naylor.

 

Very reminiscent of the 2014-15 Royals, down to their bullpen.  The only missing piece is Dyson and Gore to PR, but close enough.  They’re third in the majors and steals, and that will only increase with the limits on pickoff moves to first.

 

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15 minutes ago, South Side Hit Men said:

 

 

Because in a functioning organization, a bad signing should come down to the GM, and too many bad signings should mean the GM is doing a bad job. It's this other stupid crap where the manager is somehow sticking his nose into player signings that muddies that statement up - which of course just reflects on the fact that everything's a sh*tshow and nothing works correctly. 

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17 hours ago, Green Line said:

Great article.  I should have seen tonight coming, being a fan I didnt want to.

I remember early on in the season saying that this is one of the only times I can remember watching a season and not even being able to enjoy the wins.  They are such a bad team even when they stumble to a W.  Huge amounts of talent coupled with piss poor fundamentals and attitude.  Ive never so thoroughly disliked a White Sox team as this year.

Dallas Kuechel on the mound repeatedly was state sponsored  fan base terrorism

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4 hours ago, kitekrazy said:

AA to the majors is a big big leap.

True, but defense translates easily. I would have liked to see Colas come up when Robert was clearly needing an IL stint that never happened. Engel cost us quite a bit this season.

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19 minutes ago, reiks12 said:

True, but defense translates easily. I would have liked to see Colas come up when Robert was clearly needing an IL stint that never happened. Engel cost us quite a bit this season.

If any number of the bums we played this season could be on the team,  not sure Colas can be worse .

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1 hour ago, Balta1701 said:

Because in a functioning organization, a bad signing should come down to the GM, and too many bad signings should mean the GM is doing a bad job. It's this other stupid crap where the manager is somehow sticking his nose into player signings that muddies that statement up - which of course just reflects on the fact that everything's a sh*tshow and nothing works correctly. 

Yes, agreed. I realize the media reported Tony's role in certain transactions (Joe Kelly, Leury, Lynn, others). That said, they both discussed these moves and likely agreed on most if not all of the trades and signings. Tony didn't bark orders at a subservient Hahn the past two years, and Hahn didn't keep Tony in the dark and make key moves without consulting with his manager. It's likely they don't like each other, and both have made sniping CYA comments to the media (Tony about Kimbrel's role, Hahn on a few lineup questions). However, both have been around enough to know discussions and collaboration were required, regardless of personal feelings and animus. Internal dysfunction is a Jerry trademark, be it Krause vs. Jackson, Kenny vs. Ozzie, Gar/Pax vs. Thibodaux, etc.. It's likely a key reason beyond cronyism why Jerry wanted Tony here. He wanted a new dynamic after eight years of Hahn Ken.

I believe both thought it best to let Madrigal and Rodon go, acquire Lynn, Graveman, Liam, Eaton and others. Likely both thought it was OK to activate injured players and hope for the best with the lack of quality depth options beyond Colas who they refused to aggressively promote this season.

Both need to be gone completely from the franchise after October 6th. Their history over the past decade, be it the past two years together, Hahn's previous eight years here, and Tony's time in Arizona indicate they have zero capability of constructing a quality roster. They shouldn't be lingering as advisors or EVP (Hahn), but that is the likely end result. Hell, John Paxton and Doug Collins are still with the Bulls, Daryl Boston is still here and it's likely Don Cooper would still be if they didn't fire Ricky in 2020, knowing the new manager (Jerry knew it was Tony, Hahn still unaware) would demand a change.

Edited by South Side Hit Men
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On 9/21/2022 at 4:31 AM, Texsox said:

I agree with your entire statement, but wanted to highlight these two things. 

Every time I read huge amount of talent, etc. I wonder why we have a Fire Hahn thread. I posted earlier about 2020 having more talent and after a few replies was proven wrong. He seems to be doing his job. 

This season proved to me how valuable a manager is. Folks in their 20s and 30s need competent managers or else they can't perform at their best. I believed for a long time athletes this talented could self manage like a neighborhood game. I was wrong. 

This failure is on Tony's shoulders. 

And how much I disliked this team since spring training. 

We don't have a huge amount of talent. The stats will tell you that. I'm struggling to find anyone all that talented . My definition of talented is on field results which includes actually playing a lot of games. Among the position players who does that describe? Just Abreu and Anderson and Anderson cratered this year like so many others on this team.

Others have flashed vast amounts of talent like Jimenez, Moncada and Robert but injuries and whatever is wrong with Moncada have neutered them. Vaughn doesn't have any value playing the OF. He might become a very good hitter but 1st baseman need to be a power bat. There's plenty of guys a lot faster who play better defense in lots of positions with 1+ fWAR (Vaughn currently with .4). In other words it would take 10+ Vaughns to equal 1 Steven Kwan. Grandal has hit rock bottom and thinking he can recover is like thinking Moncada can recover and Eloy and Robert can stay healthy enough to actually put back to back full seasons (140 min. games) together. In other words good luck with that.

TLR is just a by product of a terrible system because of the owner. TLR , Hahn both have done terrible jobs but getting rid of both is like cutting high branches off a mighty oak. It will be barely noticeable because JR is the oak. He's operated the same way since he owned the team. The rebuild was doomed to failure from the start but they can always blame Covid, The CBA, lockouts and late spring training when it's actually ineptitude from top to bottom in the organization.

Edited by CaliSoxFanViaSWside
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14 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

We don't have a huge amount of talent. The stats will tell you that. I'm struggling to find anyone all that talented . My definition of talented is on field results which includes actually playing a lot of games. Among the position players who does that describe? Just Abreu and Anderson and Anderson cratered this year like so many others on this team.

Others have flashed vast amounts of talent like Jimenez, Moncada and Robert but injuries and whatever is wrong with Moncada have neutered them. Vaughn doesn't have any value playing the OF. He might become a very good hitter but 1st baseman need to be a power bat. There's plenty of guys a lot faster who play better defense in lots of positions with 1+ fWAR (Vaughn currently with .4). In other words it would take 10+ Vaughns to equal 1 Steven Kwan. Grandal has hit rock bottom and thinking he can recover is like thinking Moncada can recover and Eloy and Robert can stay healthy enough to actually put back to back full seasons (140 min. games) together. In other words good luck with that.

TLR is just a by product of a terrible system because of the owner. TLR , Hahn both have done terrible jobs but getting rid of both is like cutting high branches off a mighty oak. It will be barely noticeable because JR is the oak. He's operated the same way since he owned the team. The rebuild was doomed to failure from the start but they can always blame Covid, The CBA, lockouts and late spring training when it's actually ineptitude from top to bottom in the organization.

You hit the nail on the head. There is not a huge amount of talent on this roster. All you need to do is look at the standings this year and the number of playoff series won by this team since the rebuild started. 

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3 hours ago, LittleHurtCG said:

You hit the nail on the head. There is not a huge amount of talent on this roster. All you need to do is look at the standings this year and the number of playoff series won by this team since the rebuild started. 

And that talent is mostly Cease and Kopech, crosses fingers ONE of them doesn't go down with TJS or that would be the absolute death blow to the rebuild....whatever is actually left of it right now.

Sure, Lopez and Liam and Crochet and Bummer are undoubtedly talented, but a bullpen isn't enough to carry a team, unless it is as good as the 2014-15 Royals.   Of course, we end up getting the likes of Herrera about 2-3 years too late, just like Joe Kelly and Diekman and maybe even Graveman, who has taken a beating usage wise over the last half decade.

 

Vaughn and Jimenez are the most realistic guys to get something out of moving forward, with our other three Cubans at risk of being flameouts or entirely new players under a different manager and/or operating system reboot.

 

 

 

PS:  please please please never allow either Leury or Engel another day on this roster after the conclusion of this season.   Same with Mendick.

Move on and see if any of our prospects can actually play, such as Sosa/Ca.Perez/Colas/Martin.   The worst result this offseason was that guys such as Luis Gonzalez were actually more competent (and certainly better "values") than the likes of Pollock and Leury out there.

Because of how poorly our roster is currently constructed, Davis Martin, Seby and Sheets are all due for recurring roles in 2023, and we all know how likely that is to work out in the end.

Same with overpaying Andrus, Harrison or Cueto.

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On 9/21/2022 at 7:54 AM, GREEDY said:

I think had he not forced TLR into the dugout this could have been a "post espn last dance" redemption tour of sorts.  Or at the very least he could have had his media people try to spin it that way.

#7 payroll is no joke.  With very little money coming off this winter we could've easily been top 5 in 2023.

Instead it is what is likely a final bow for an owner whose legacy will not be anywhere near positive despite relative success.  

Legacy, hah! This team is not your Michael  Jordan led Chicago Bulls! It's over.

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31 minutes ago, Saufley said:

Legacy, hah! This team is not your Michael  Jordan led Chicago Bulls! It's over.

Sadly, like Bulls fans we are stuck with Jerry at the end. 

https://clutchpoints.com/the-last-dance-news-charles-barkley-rips-jerry-reinsdorf-real-culprit-bulls-breakup/

Quote

“[Krause] didn’t take that apart — anyone who thinks that is a fool,” said Barkley. That thing was orchestrated by Jerry Reinsdorf. The notion that that little man broke up the Bulls is asinine and absurd … Jerry Reinsdorf broke up the Bulls ’cause he didn’t want to pay anybody. You think about this — he let Horace Grant go because he became a free agent and they didn’t want to pay him. They probably don’t want to talk about that in the documentary. That’s why he went to Orlando. He only paid Michael [Jordan] the last two years. When he had Michael at a bargain, he was happy.

“To try to make Krause the bad guy, I thought that was very disingenuous of Reinsdorf.”

 

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On 9/21/2022 at 11:43 AM, JoeC said:

Seemingly off-topic for this thread, but this is my primary beef with the "call up Colas" movement.

Just because someone puts up good numbers in AAA (or, in his case, AA), it doesn't mean that he doesn't have significant holes in his game that will keep him from being a serviceable big league player.

Again, I hope Project Birmingham is designed to address things like this and give players more practice time to work on those holes in their games.

Rushed to the majors is something I never think can completely destroy a hitter. If you have the talent to play the game and make the necessary adjustments to keep the talent from being dominated by pitching talent and scouting reports you will be a good MLB player.

Take Tim Anderson for example .  Decent rookie year at the age of 23 but then in the next 2 years his weaknesses were exposed and he had down years. In 2019 he took a huge leap forward and stayed there. He became good through his own hard work and figuring out the game and how to hit. I'm sure some coaches along the way helped him but a player has to persevere and be mentally tough to go through the failures.

Some guys have so much talent they can be great at 21 yrs old. The rest have to work at it. I think the sooner you're brought up the more you can get into what you are supposed to learn in the big leagues. Facing inferior competition hardly prepares you to face the best in the world.

Colas turned 24 Sept. 17 . He needs to play against the best now. When you have 1st basemen playing the OF, an actually LH OF like Colas who already has the ability to hit both RH and LH pitching , has a strong arm and power and can also play CF is quite valuable. He made adjustments and was a better hitter in AA than A+ .Even if he has a  bad 1st season offensively like Vaughn did, at least he'll still provide positive value in the OF and we won't have to see Vaughn in RF ever again.

Edited by CaliSoxFanViaSWside
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