That's another k0pech white sox winner

[greg775]

OK folks, six runs on four hits and Sox win vs a Central team. Again. Nice.

I hate to be the positive guy but Pedro appears to have the Sox playing better vs. the Central. This is big. Our former managers couldn't get that done.

Folks, the Sox may still stink but this month has been pretty dandy. Call me a pollyanna fan but the gosh awful pitching has been way better and the hitters are somewhat hitterish.

 Baby, you gotta believe at times, Thanx Pedro for getting the guys to do a bit better vs, the Central. These teams suck and Sox can beat them. Thanx.

[Paulie4Pres]

5 hours ago, South Side Hit Men said:

Seby should be paired with the three top pitchers the rest of the season. Grandal can handle Lynn and the 5th starter.

There is a reason the White Sox are only two games over .500 (versus 21 overall) in games Grandal has played his entire White Sox career.

2023 Splits:

• Kopech: Zavala .636 OPS 3.34 ERA vs. Grandal .993 OPS 6.97 ERA - Doesn't include Zavala start today.
• Giolito: Zavala .634 OPS 2.75 ERA vs. Grandal 1.435 OPS 15.75 ERA
• Cease: Zavala .684 OPS 3.22 ERA vs. Grandal .740 OPS 5.45 ERA

Those splits are fucking CRIMINAL. Those stats alone are enough to never fucking play Grandal again.

[Middle Buffalo]

7 hours ago, wegner said:

Jimmy Lambert started Game 1 in Cleveland and finished Game 3. I don't think I've ever seen that before.

Pretty sure you have. Buehrle started Game 2 and saved Game 3 of the ‘05 WS.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

1 hour ago, Paulie4Pres said:

Those splits are fucking CRIMINAL. Those stats alone are enough to never fucking play Grandal again.

I don't think you can just look at those splits in a vacuum and come to any conclusions.

You would have to look at it game by game ,look at the opponent and some other things.

I'm not saying that Grandal is a great catcher and pitch caller but Grandal has caught a lot of pitchers with the Sox and those just 3 of them in a 50 game span in a season where those pitchers were not good. Maybe look at Rodon with Grandal catching or Cease from last year. Perspective matters. Yes he's slowing down and not as good as he once was but the poster is a known Grandal hater and Tim Anderson lover is always posting cherry picked stats . I had a running feud with him for a while because he was misusing small sample defensive stats to support Vaughn's defense in the OF. Of course Vaughn was the golden boy then then so I took tons of heat for saying Vaughn was really bad and I didn't care that small sample defensive stats suggested he was adequate. One season of LF defense for 50 -100 games is never enough of a sample size to support any argument that he was fine in the OF. Anyone who saw how slow he was knew those stats were a mirage and that he sure wasn't going to get any faster and with an adequate sample size he had nowhere to go but down. That was in 2021.2022 proved my point. Sample size perspective. Grandal isn't a great catcher by any stretch of the imagination but do you really think Cease, Kopech and Giolito think Grandal is responsible for them being bad early in the season. Do you think the Sox analytics dept. looks at cherry picked stats like this and screams wow we better start letting Seby catch a lot more ? This why data analysis is not so simple as finding a few stats on Baseball Reference and drawing any kind of conclusion from them is arrogant as hell. Maybe just by luck the conclusion is partially accurate but the process is deeply flawed.

[wegner]

34 minutes ago, Middle Buffalo said:

Pretty sure you have. Buehrle started Game 2 and saved Game 3 of the ‘05 WS.

Not the 1st and last game of a series. Buehrle's was obviously epic...Jimmy's just interesting imo.

[caulfield12]

11 minutes ago, wegner said:

Not the 1st and last game of a series. Buehrle's was obviously epic...Jimmy's just interesting imo.

That was the game Ozuna was going to be next pitcher in? 

Or the Blum walk off one? 

[reiks12]

7 hours ago, South Side Hit Men said:

Seby should be paired with the three top pitchers the rest of the season. Grandal can handle Lynn and the 5th starter.

There is a reason the White Sox are only two games over .500 (versus 21 overall) in games Grandal has played his entire White Sox career.

2023 Splits:

• Kopech: Zavala .636 OPS 3.34 ERA vs. Grandal .993 OPS 6.97 ERA - Doesn't include Zavala start today.
• Giolito: Zavala .634 OPS 2.75 ERA vs. Grandal 1.435 OPS 15.75 ERA
• Cease: Zavala .684 OPS 3.22 ERA vs. Grandal .740 OPS 5.45 ERA

This is crazy

[South Side Hit Men]

Tiny Middle Finger Avatar Guy posts a lot of nonsense and then cries when called out, including his obsessions about platooning DHs and other bad roster and prospect management ideas, many of which are consistent how Hahn operates. 

Stone can be an arrogant ass like some posters here, but he is 100% on point when he has states he prefers his catchers to be able to catch. Most including Stone would also like a catcher who prepared for opponents and had a clue about pitch calling and game management.

Below are stats over their White Sox Careers. Solid defensive and pitch calling catchers such as McCann and McGwire were also far superior to Grandal when it comes to handling pitchers with breaking balls and managing a ballgame. Lynn is fine with Grandal because there is no thinking required, and nearly every pitch is catchable by Grandal, and Clevinger is stuck with him because Zavala isn't catching four games out of five.

Keep in mind, Zavala isn't known as a Gold Glove Catcher, but unlike Grandal he is an actual MLB capable defensive catcher and game caller in the year 2023. Catcher is the one position where you should prioritize defensive and pitch calling over hitting needs. Grandal also played DH / 1B in prior years, but considering the fact half the decent hitters on the current team are also DH/1B only types (Sheets, Frazier, Eloy, Vaughn, Burger) no at bats are available.

Sample Size 170 Games (or just under 6 Full MLB SP Seasons) Green = Best Current Option Red = Worst Current Option

Lucas Giolito - Definitely prefers anyone besides Grandal.

• Grandal: 30 G 4.45 ERA .731 OBP
• Zavala: 25 G 3.67 ERA .677 OBP

Michael Kopech - Definitely makes sense to continue to ride the Zavala/Kopech streak as long as it is working.

• Grandal: 28 G 4.14 ERA .744 OPS
• Zavala: 21 G 4.88 ERA .725 OPS - Doesn't include Kopech/Savala 0 ER 7 IP from yesterday - Both Stats will lower

Dylan Cease - Cease clearly is pitching better over a season plus worth of starts with Zavala.

• Grandal: 41 G 4.44 ERA .729 OPS
• Zavala: 25 G 2.06 ERA .546 OPS

 

[Kyyle23]

3 hours ago, South Side Hit Men said:

Tiny Middle Finger Avatar Guy posts a lot of nonsense and then cries when called out, including his obsessions about platooning DHs and other bad roster and prospect management ideas, many of which are consistent how Hahn operates. 

Stone can be an arrogant ass like some posters here, but he is 100% on point when he has states he prefers his catchers to be able to catch. Most including Stone would also like a catcher who prepared for opponents and had a clue about pitch calling and game management.

Below are stats over their White Sox Careers. Solid defensive and pitch calling catchers such as McCann and McGwire were also far superior to Grandal when it comes to handling pitchers with breaking balls and managing a ballgame. Lynn is fine with Grandal because there is no thinking required, and nearly every pitch is catchable by Grandal, and Clevinger is stuck with him because Zavala isn't catching four games out of five.

Keep in mind, Zavala isn't known as a Gold Glove Catcher, but unlike Grandal he is an actual MLB capable defensive catcher and game caller in the year 2023. Catcher is the one position where you should prioritize defensive and pitch calling over hitting needs. Grandal also played DH / 1B in prior years, but considering the fact half the decent hitters on the current team are also DH/1B only types (Sheets, Frazier, Eloy, Vaughn, Burger) no at bats are available.

Sample Size 170 Games (or just under 6 Full MLB SP Seasons) Green = Best Current Option Red = Worst Current Option

Lucas Giolito - Definitely prefers anyone besides Grandal.

• Grandal: 30 G 4.45 ERA .731 OBP
• Zavala: 25 G 3.67 ERA .677 OBP

Michael Kopech - Definitely makes sense to continue to ride the Zavala/Kopech streak as long as it is working.

• Grandal: 28 G 4.14 ERA .744 OPS
• Zavala: 21 G 4.88 ERA .725 OPS - Doesn't include Kopech/Savala 0 ER 7 IP from yesterday - Both Stats will lower

Dylan Cease - Cease clearly is pitching better over a season plus worth of starts with Zavala.

• Grandal: 41 G 4.44 ERA .729 OPS
• Zavala: 25 G 2.06 ERA .546 OPS

 

I like how you call people in this site arrogant while you do this thing where you highlight things because you don’t believe people can pick up your points so you have to bold them for all of us idiots

[caulfield12]

2 minutes ago, Kyyle23 said:

I like how you call people in this site arrogant while you do this thing where you highlight things because you don’t believe people can pick up your points so you have to bold them for all of us idiots

But the Christmas in July and/or stock market ticker colors are such a nice touch... 

[SCCWS]

At least heading toward June,  9 games under .500, the Sox appear to  have 2 very good starting pitchers.  It would be great if they can finish the next 5 weeks 9 games over .500 as they head toward July. 

[South Side Hit Men]

2 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

But the Christmas in July and/or stock market ticker colors are such a nice touch... 

This works for Executive Summaries.

Perhaps Hahn will grasp the data if it reaches him, though I suspect he prefers Batting Average and Pitcher W/L Record as his two primary data points.

[bmags]

If the pitchers don't like Grandal's game calling I have zero sympathy in 2023 where a certain rule change happened. 

[bmags]

also those splits aren't that damning. 

[Quin]

2 minutes ago, bmags said:

If the pitchers don't like Grandal's game calling I have zero sympathy in 2023 where a certain rule change happened. 

The pitch clock or the pitch comm?

There's been so many rule changes that I've lost track.

[The Kids Can Play]

11 hours ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

I don't think you can just look at those splits in a vacuum and come to any conclusions.

You would have to look at it game by game ,look at the opponent and some other things.

I'm not saying that Grandal is a great catcher and pitch caller but Grandal has caught a lot of pitchers with the Sox and those just 3 of them in a 50 game span in a season where those pitchers were not good. Maybe look at Rodon with Grandal catching or Cease from last year. Perspective matters. Yes he's slowing down and not as good as he once was but the poster is a known Grandal hater and Tim Anderson lover is always posting cherry picked stats . I had a running feud with him for a while because he was misusing small sample defensive stats to support Vaughn's defense in the OF. Of course Vaughn was the golden boy then then so I took tons of heat for saying Vaughn was really bad and I didn't care that small sample defensive stats suggested he was adequate. One season of LF defense for 50 -100 games is never enough of a sample size to support any argument that he was fine in the OF. Anyone who saw how slow he was knew those stats were a mirage and that he sure wasn't going to get any faster and with an adequate sample size he had nowhere to go but down. That was in 2021.2022 proved my point. Sample size perspective. Grandal isn't a great catcher by any stretch of the imagination but do you really think Cease, Kopech and Giolito think Grandal is responsible for them being bad early in the season. Do you think the Sox analytics dept. looks at cherry picked stats like this and screams wow we better start letting Seby catch a lot more ? This why data analysis is not so simple as finding a few stats on Baseball Reference and drawing any kind of conclusion from them is arrogant as hell. Maybe just by luck the conclusion is partially accurate but the process is deeply flawed.

I don't need "cherry picked" stats to know Seby is a far superior catcher to Grandal defensively. I watch all the games and I can see for my own eyes, that I don't see passed balls and balls in the dirt getting past Seby like they constantly do with Grandal. Plus, now that stolen bases are a bigger thing, it's also a benefit to know Seby has the better arm than Grandal to stop the stolen base attempts. 

Do the Sox give up production offensively? Absolutely they do. However when you have three solid pitchers like Cease, Kopech and Giolito, you want your best catcher behind the plate getting the best results from these three pitchers. For the loss of hitting from Seby to Grandal...is so made up in volumes with Seby catching them.

Plus I think Seby will hit better once he is the full time catcher in the future. It's always been a baseball fact the hitting always improves when you play full time and not occasionally.

Finally to your question do I think Cease, Kopech and Giolito think Grandal is the reason they were bad early in the season? Of course they would never call out Grandal publicly, but I would bet anything that if Grifol asked each of them before each of their starts, which catcher do you want and they would be given their wish...there is not doubt in my mind all three would absolutely pick Seby 100 percent of the time.

Btw, let's not forget Grandal is an UFA after this season. So it might be time to find a new home for him at the trade deadline. I don't care if his value is down, just get some prospects, as opposed to getting nothing.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

40 minutes ago, The Kids Can Play said:

I don't need "cherry picked" stats to know Seby is a far superior catcher to Grandal defensively. I watch all the games and I can see for my own eyes, that I don't see passed balls and balls in the dirt getting past Seby like they constantly do with Grandal. Plus, now that stolen bases are a bigger thing, it's also a benefit to know Seby has the better arm than Grandal to stop the stolen base attempts. 

Do the Sox give up production offensively? Absolutely they do. However when you have three solid pitchers like Cease, Kopech and Giolito, you want your best catcher behind the plate getting the best results from these three pitchers. For the loss of hitting from Seby to Grandal...is so made up in volumes with Seby catching them.

Plus I think Seby will hit better once he is the full time catcher in the future. It's always been a baseball fact the hitting always improves when you play full time and not occasionally.

Finally to your question do I think Cease, Kopech and Giolito think Grandal is the reason they were bad early in the season? Of course they would never call out Grandal publicly, but I would bet anything that if Grifol asked each of them before each of their starts, which catcher do you want and they would be given their wish...there is not doubt in my mind all three would absolutely pick Seby 100 percent of the time.

Btw, let's not forget Grandal is an UFA after this season. So it might be time to find a new home for him at the trade deadline. I don't care if his value is down, just get some prospects, as opposed to getting nothing.

You notice I never once said Seby wasn't a better catcher or maybe even a better pitch caller. As a matter of fact I made sure I said that the cherry picked stats make some kind of point but not the point that the poster who strongly over reacted to them jumped to.  There is some validity to what he said  but using just this season to over emphasize his point isn't a good process.

There will always be pitchers who feel more comfortable with a certain catcher. But those same pitchers would tell you that it's their job to execute  their pitches . Pitchers sucking is on the pitcher not the catcher. If a hitter crushes a curve ball when the hitter was not picking up the fastballs well a pitcher can shake that pitch off. Plus if the pitcher throws a good curve to the location the catcher wanted it then it's a good call by the catcher. However if the pitcher hangs that curve ball and misses his spot it's on him not the catcher. Great pitchers have all kinds of catchers during the course of their careers. The good or great ones can pitch well to any MLB catcher.

I have also been on record as saying that a good hitting catcher is a luxury and using high draft picks on catchers is not something I would do. I actually prefer a strong defensive catcher if your lineup isn't so bad to need offense from the catcher. There are plenty of cheap defensive catchers around. Grandal should not be resigned and every effort should be made to get something for him . That's an easy call even if the Sox get back in the race. He's a broken down guy too often injured now. I'm impressed that he's hitting as well as he is but it might be helpful when the trade deadline approaches. I don't care what kind of offers the Sox get. He has to go.

 

Edited May 25, 2023 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside
changed pitchers to pitches in 1 sentence

[bmags]

38 minutes ago, Quin said:

The pitch clock or the pitch comm?

There's been so many rule changes that I've lost track.

pitch com. Like call your own damn sequences then if the pitcher felt there was a difference. I've personally been impressed that the running game against the sox has not been nearly as bad as I expected. But why run when you'll likely get walked and move em over anyway amirite

[bmags]

It turns out our SB against has impressed me and yet we are still 28 out of 30, but that just goes to show how low my expectation was lol

[ScootsMcGoots]

8 hours ago, South Side Hit Men said:

Tiny Middle Finger Avatar Guy posts a lot of nonsense and then cries when called out, including his obsessions about platooning DHs and other bad roster and prospect management ideas, many of which are consistent how Hahn operates. 

Stone can be an arrogant ass like some posters here, but he is 100% on point when he has states he prefers his catchers to be able to catch. Most including Stone would also like a catcher who prepared for opponents and had a clue about pitch calling and game management.

Below are stats over their White Sox Careers. Solid defensive and pitch calling catchers such as McCann and McGwire were also far superior to Grandal when it comes to handling pitchers with breaking balls and managing a ballgame. Lynn is fine with Grandal because there is no thinking required, and nearly every pitch is catchable by Grandal, and Clevinger is stuck with him because Zavala isn't catching four games out of five.

Keep in mind, Zavala isn't known as a Gold Glove Catcher, but unlike Grandal he is an actual MLB capable defensive catcher and game caller in the year 2023. Catcher is the one position where you should prioritize defensive and pitch calling over hitting needs. Grandal also played DH / 1B in prior years, but considering the fact half the decent hitters on the current team are also DH/1B only types (Sheets, Frazier, Eloy, Vaughn, Burger) no at bats are available.

Sample Size 170 Games (or just under 6 Full MLB SP Seasons) Green = Best Current Option Red = Worst Current Option

Lucas Giolito - Definitely prefers anyone besides Grandal.

• Grandal: 30 G 4.45 ERA .731 OBP
• Zavala: 25 G 3.67 ERA .677 OBP

Michael Kopech - Definitely makes sense to continue to ride the Zavala/Kopech streak as long as it is working.

• Grandal: 28 G 4.14 ERA .744 OPS
• Zavala: 21 G 4.88 ERA .725 OPS - Doesn't include Kopech/Savala 0 ER 7 IP from yesterday - Both Stats will lower

Dylan Cease - Cease clearly is pitching better over a season plus worth of starts with Zavala.

• Grandal: 41 G 4.44 ERA .729 OPS
• Zavala: 25 G 2.06 ERA .546 OPS

 

Well if anything, maybe this means we don't have to go out and find a starting catcher after this season. Maybe Zavala can be the guy when Grandal leaves.

[caulfield12]

https://sports.yahoo.com/looking-white-sox-michael-kopechs-201624545.html

[South Side Hit Men]

2 hours ago, ScootsMcGoots said:

Well if anything, maybe this means we don't have to go out and find a starting catcher after this season. Maybe Zavala can be the guy when Grandal leaves.

Whether the Sox will retain the same payroll or significantly lower it, it is prudent to budget say $5-$6M tops and have two catchers who can support the staff as best as possible and hopefully hit .650+ OPS.

Would be even more prudent to retain someone at the ML level who can actually work to develop catchers throughout the entire organization.

They brought in Jerry Narron with Tony and perhaps he did make progress with Zavala and others throughout the organization, but he is no longer here (now with the Angels) and all we really heard about his work while here was his lineup card calligraphy.

Even if he rather live in Southern California and only came here as a favor to Tony, it make a lot of sense to have someone in this role. Julio Mosquera currently serves as their minor league instructor, but he is not with the team in Chicago like Narron.

[The Kids Can Play]

5 hours ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

You notice I never once said Seby wasn't a better catcher or maybe even a better pitch caller. As a matter of fact I made sure I said that the cherry picked stats make some kind of point but not the point that the poster who strongly over reacted to them jumped to.  There is some validity to what he said  but using just this season to over emphasize his point isn't a good process.

There will always be pitchers who feel more comfortable with a certain catcher. But those same pitchers would tell you that it's their job to execute  their pitches . Pitchers sucking is on the pitcher not the catcher. If a hitter crushes a curve ball when the hitter was not picking up the fastballs well a pitcher can shake that pitch off. Plus if the pitcher throws a good curve to the location the catcher wanted it then it's a good call by the catcher. However if the pitcher hangs that curve ball and misses his spot it's on him not the catcher. Great pitchers have all kinds of catchers during the course of their careers. The good or great ones can pitch well to any MLB catcher.

I have also been on record as saying that a good hitting catcher is a luxury and using high draft picks on catchers is not something I would do. I actually prefer a strong defensive catcher if your lineup isn't so bad to need offense from the catcher. There are plenty of cheap defensive catchers around. Grandal should not be resigned and every effort should be made to get something for him . That's an easy call even if the Sox get back in the race. He's a broken down guy too often injured now. I'm impressed that he's hitting as well as he is but it might be helpful when the trade deadline approaches. I don't care what kind of offers the Sox get. He has to go.

 

We agree on one thing, regardless whether the Sox are in the race or not at the trade deadline, we need Grandal traded. There is absolutely no benefit to keeping him for the rest of the season and not getting some prospects for him, as opposed to Grandal gone next year as a UFA. 

Also to your point, that if a team can afford to have a good defensive catcher and not need his offense, that is 100 percent true for this Sox team, when Eloy comes back and hopefully Jake plays everyday. 

Edited May 25, 2023 by The Kids Can Play

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

16 hours ago, South Side Hit Men said:

Tiny Middle Finger Avatar Guy posts a lot of nonsense and then cries when called out, including his obsessions about platooning DHs and other bad roster and prospect management ideas, many of which are consistent how Hahn operates. 

Stone can be an arrogant ass like some posters here, but he is 100% on point when he has states he prefers his catchers to be able to catch. Most including Stone would also like a catcher who prepared for opponents and had a clue about pitch calling and game management.

Below are stats over their White Sox Careers. Solid defensive and pitch calling catchers such as McCann and McGwire were also far superior to Grandal when it comes to handling pitchers with breaking balls and managing a ballgame. Lynn is fine with Grandal because there is no thinking required, and nearly every pitch is catchable by Grandal, and Clevinger is stuck with him because Zavala isn't catching four games out of five.

Keep in mind, Zavala isn't known as a Gold Glove Catcher, but unlike Grandal he is an actual MLB capable defensive catcher and game caller in the year 2023. Catcher is the one position where you should prioritize defensive and pitch calling over hitting needs. Grandal also played DH / 1B in prior years, but considering the fact half the decent hitters on the current team are also DH/1B only types (Sheets, Frazier, Eloy, Vaughn, Burger) no at bats are available.

Sample Size 170 Games (or just under 6 Full MLB SP Seasons) Green = Best Current Option Red = Worst Current Option

Lucas Giolito - Definitely prefers anyone besides Grandal.

• Grandal: 30 G 4.45 ERA .731 OBP
• Zavala: 25 G 3.67 ERA .677 OBP

Michael Kopech - Definitely makes sense to continue to ride the Zavala/Kopech streak as long as it is working.

• Grandal: 28 G 4.14 ERA .744 OPS
• Zavala: 21 G 4.88 ERA .725 OPS - Doesn't include Kopech/Savala 0 ER 7 IP from yesterday - Both Stats will lower

Dylan Cease - Cease clearly is pitching better over a season plus worth of starts with Zavala.

• Grandal: 41 G 4.44 ERA .729 OPS
• Zavala: 25 G 2.06 ERA .546 OPS

 

I'm really sorry that you think you are making your point using young pitchers like Kopech and Cease . As any baseball fan knows young pitchers are wildly inconsistent and 2020 was the Covid year,

While Cease was still working to perfect his craft as a young pitcher in the 2020 and '21 seasons Grandal was his primary catcher in the Covid shortened 2020 season and the 2021 Spring Training shortened Opening Day pushed back a week season.  2021 was also the year MLB banned "sticky" substances for pitchers on June 21,20021.

2020 was Grandal's 1st year with the Sox .Zavala didn't catch him at all in his 12 starts in 2020. Grandal caught 8 of his 12 games.  This Cease couldn't make it past the 5th inning in his last 6 starts because he walked 22 in only 26.2 IP. His FIP for 12 starts was 6.36 . James McCann caught him for the other 4 games So Grandal had an 8 game head start of catching  bad Cease. The Dylan Cease who had no control and no command of his pitches.

I'm sorry I can't make a pretty post with colors with only tiny bits of info to impress fans who are too lazy to do a deeper dive and take you at your biased Grandal point of view.  But as I said before these things require perspective and a narrative. So Grandal and McCann were catching him in 2020.

With your Cease stats you aren't specific when you started compiling your Grandal and Zavala catching Cease stats. All you said was a season plus worth of stats My research shows that Grandal caught Cease another 13 times in 2021 before Zavala got his 1st start 7/11/21  . So 8 starts from 2020 and 13 from 2021 = 21 starts of the non great Cease before Zavala even caught 1 game .In total Zavala caught 4 games of Cease in 2021 and Collins caught 11 . So the majority of his time catching Cease was in Cease's 2nd place Cy Young finish 2022 season. Maybe you should have said I am including all Grandal stats catching Cease from 2020 through 2023 instead of intentionally being deceptive about Grandal doing a lot of catching of Cease during his early years trying to learn the ropes to become a good MLB pitcher.

In 2022 when Cease became great, Grandal had a terrible year and we found out later he was catching with a very bad back. Zavala caught Cease 17 times in 2022. Grandal caught him 9 times and none between 6-10-22 through the end of Sept 2022 because Grandal was injured and DNP from June11 through 7-21-2022.

With Grandal out Zavala and Reese McGuire shared catching duties with McGuire who got 8 starts at catcher and 7 for Zavala. McGuire was traded 8-1-2022. Zavala caught Cease's next 10 starts after the trade.

Clearly most of the  Zavala starts catching Cease came either in 2022 when he was great and 2023 when he was supposed to be great again (21 of 25 games) or 84%.

Our poster included every game Grandal has caught Cease from 2020 through 2023. Only 16 of his total 41 starts for Cease came in 2022 and 2023 or 39% . The other 25 starts for Grandal catching Cease came in Cease's formative years of 2020 and 2021 or 69%. Hardly a fair comparison .

It is difficult to say if the sample size is larger enough to say Cease pitches better to Seby . There is some correlation .Clearly in 2022 and 2023 Cease did pitch better with Seby. However Seby's 84 % of his total games caught with Cease and only 39%  of Grandal's total coming in 2022 (when Grandal was clearly badly hurt) and 2023 kind of messes with the conclusions that were drawn since Seby didn't catch Cease during Ceases bad and growing pains years of 2020 and 2021.

The Kopech correlation didn't hold much water since he's still in his pitching infancy and only had 10 really good starts in 2022 before he hurt his knee and his stats fell apart after that. Grandal caught 5 of those 10 starts and Reese McGuire the other 5.  McGuire actually caught his 2 worst starts among the 10 His 11th start was when he injured himself after .2 IP and came out with no earned runs with McGuire catching. Sample size is way too small of an uninjured Kopech and in 2023 trying to find his way back to early 2022 form after a late start  in ST  to draw any conclusions from a handful of starts. In the 5 starts Kopech made with Grandal catching he only gave up 2 earned runs in 27 IP. Clearly , once again, context matters. Catching a hot pitcher makes a catcher look very good. I will certainly give Zavala his props for establishing himself as a decent catcher after the Grandal injury but I'm not going to give him any credit for Cease becoming a great pitcher in 2022. He was in the right place at the right time.

Giolito would take time and I've already spent way too much time pouring through game longs for 3 seasons on 2 different pitcher. Let's just say Giolito decided to add some weight in 2022 and it threw off his mechanics . He also got Covid and then a nasty infection that he said just drained him. Remember the sweaty Gio we saw last year ? That was him being sick and still out there trying. There's also a decent amount of speculation that the ban on sticky substances hurt Lucas a lot so his 2022 season was such a disaster that people here were saying he should be non tendered. I wouldn't put much stock in any Catchers ERA for Gio in 2022.

From 2019 through 2021Giolito got a lot of Cy Young votes all 3 years even though each year his ERA was right around 3.50 . But that's pretty good but not elite.

Again just like with Cease we're dealing with a much larger sample size for Grandal catching Gio than Zavala . I don't have time to go through game logs from 2022 but when a pitcher sucks like Gio did in 2022 he must have sucked for both catchers .If someone wants to go through games logs or knows of a place to find CERA with certain pitchers feel free to impress me. I'm sure Zavala probably didn't catch Gio much in 2021 since he only caught Cease 4 times that year and Collins was still catching most games that Grandal didn't start.

 Maybe the stats favor Grandal since he was catching Gio in 2020 and 2021 when he was still getting Cy Young votes. If 2021 is in Zavala's favor then the sample size has to be pretty small. 2023 the sample size for both is also too small. That leaves 2022 when Gio was really bad. Which Gio you got from start to start was not determined by the catcher but by his health and his out of wack mechanics due to the weight he gained.  It's the reason that he took off the weight after the 2022 season ended.

 

 

 

 

Edited May 26, 2023 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[caulfield12]

6 hours ago, The Kids Can Play said:

We agree on one thing, regardless whether the Sox are in the race or not at the trade deadline, we need Grandal traded. There is absolutely no benefit to keeping him for the rest of the season and not getting some prospects for him, as opposed to Grandal gone next year as a UFA. 

Also to your point, that if a team can afford to have a good defensive catcher and not need his offense, that is 100 percent true for this Sox team, when Eloy comes back and hopefully Jake plays everyday. 

At the very least, you need to see what you have in Carlos Perez for at least three months of 40-50% playing time.

They already know everything there is to know about Zavala.