WestEddy Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 5 minutes ago, T R U said: Man I think you're falling into the same trap you did last season when you touted the bullpen etc. This team doesn't even have 1 strong starter, the rotation is hot garbage man. I don't understand where this line of thinking comes from. Hot garbage? Maybe we just use words differently. You don't think a pitcher having success in the minors is a "pitching prospect" unless he's ranked top 50 in the game, basically. And a guy who has shown he can throw consistent quality starts in the bigs is "Hot garbage". See, you and others can keep declaring every player is garbage, and when that player actually does well, or brings back a good player in trade, nobody cares that you were wrong. I say the word "lockdown" in a heated back and forth once, and that might as well be my screen name. Being negative is a low risk proposition. I guess that's why so many just blurt out negative things. Being slightly negative with a sunny disposition, like I am, gets you branded a kook. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TaylorStSox Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 Through Maddux first 2 seasons, he had a 5.6 ERA with a 75 ERA+. Through Thorpe's first season, he has a 5.5 ERA with a 75 ERA+. Basically, Drew Thorpe is Greg Maddux. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestEddy Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 17 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said: If you want a finance analogy the Sox have a chance to either invest long term, or buy a luxury item on a credit card. The Sox are using their credit card with a 550 credit score, then going to get a payday loan to make it until payday. I think you meant to say that they sold one asset for another asset (and necessity, really) they felt could deliver a quick bump. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleAleSox Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 8 minutes ago, TaylorStSox said: Through Maddux first 2 seasons, he had a 5.6 ERA with a 75 ERA+. Through Thorpe's first season, he has a 5.5 ERA with a 75 ERA+. Basically, Drew Thorpe is Greg Maddux. Feel like this is a tad misleading since he started getting bombed and it seemed to be his injury. He had a nice little run going before that. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T R U Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 13 minutes ago, WestEddy said: Hot garbage? Maybe we just use words differently. You don't think a pitcher having success in the minors is a "pitching prospect" unless he's ranked top 50 in the game, basically. And a guy who has shown he can throw consistent quality starts in the bigs is "Hot garbage". See, you and others can keep declaring every player is garbage, and when that player actually does well, or brings back a good player in trade, nobody cares that you were wrong. I say the word "lockdown" in a heated back and forth once, and that might as well be my screen name. Being negative is a low risk proposition. I guess that's why so many just blurt out negative things. Being slightly negative with a sunny disposition, like I am, gets you branded a kook. No, I just don't think people like Shane Drohan should be included in any discussion about legit pitching prospects. If you just mean he's "a" prospect then sure, but that was not the nature of our conversation and you know it. Its questionable if this team even has 1 strong player on its 40 man roster, but you just declared that they have 5 strong starting pitchers headed into 2025. We definitely are not speaking the same language. 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TaylorStSox Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 18 minutes ago, PaleAleSox said: Feel like this is a tad misleading since he started getting bombed and it seemed to be his injury. He had a nice little run going before that. Better than Maddux? Sure, why not? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 1 hour ago, WestEddy said: I think you meant to say that they sold one asset for another asset (and necessity, really) they felt could deliver a quick bump. Nope. Quite literally they are paying tomorrow for not investing today because they can't "afford" it, yet are still buying a luxury item. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestEddy Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 1 hour ago, T R U said: No, I just don't think people like Shane Drohan should be included in any discussion about legit pitching prospects. If you just mean he's "a" prospect then sure, but that was not the nature of our conversation and you know it. Its questionable if this team even has 1 strong player on its 40 man roster, but you just declared that they have 5 strong starting pitchers headed into 2025. We definitely are not speaking the same language. And we've already had this clarification conversation. If I say a guy like Mason Adams is a legitimate starting pitching prospect, I'm not saying, "Dude, he's super-legit" like he's a sure fire all-star. I'm saying that the team is bringing him along with an eye on getting him major league starter innings. If the Sox pick up, say, Phillip Humber and stow him at AAA, nobody plans for him to be developed into a big league rotational starter, anymore. So, Riley Gowens, or Aldrin Batista have a clear path to big league starter innings if they keep developing. They're legitimate pitching prospects. In the case of Shane Drohan, if the guy wasn't injured, for sure he would have gotten starts before Thorpe, and definitely before Keller and Kuhl. Drohan was mentioned as a rotation option when he was drafted. I don't know if that was bad scouting, or Getz not doing his due diligence, but it happened. I said the Sox had 15 legitimate starting prospects across 4 levels, you asked who, and I listed out about 19-20 guys, including Drohan. I've explained this to you twice, now, and you know it. 2025 - okay, strong is probably the wrong word. Then stable. Sean Burke has been noted in a couple "just missed the top 100" lists. He's a guy. He'll get a chance to start. Davis Martin and Jon Cannon will start games, and will most probably cover 5 innings of those starts. Maybe 6. That will be better than most of the Sox' first month or two of starting pitching in 2024. This, in turn, will keep the bullpen from being taxed like they were in 2024, removing that "excuse". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestEddy Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 11 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said: Nope. Quite literally they are paying tomorrow for not investing today because they can't "afford" it, yet are still buying a luxury item. They are investing today. Because they still literally have over a hundred pitchers in their minor league system. A bullpen arm isn't a luxury item. It's like they sold one share of soy futures out of their vast portfolio to buy a car to get to work. Still invested in the future, obtaining a necessity to conduct business in the present. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 1 hour ago, WestEddy said: Hot garbage? Maybe we just use words differently. You don't think a pitcher having success in the minors is a "pitching prospect" unless he's ranked top 50 in the game, basically. And a guy who has shown he can throw consistent quality starts in the bigs is "Hot garbage". See, you and others can keep declaring every player is garbage, and when that player actually does well, or brings back a good player in trade, nobody cares that you were wrong. I say the word "lockdown" in a heated back and forth once, and that might as well be my screen name. Being negative is a low risk proposition. I guess that's why so many just blurt out negative things. Being slightly negative with a sunny disposition, like I am, gets you branded a kook. I think this is why you get so mad at the mention of 121 losses, as any attempt to characterize the season that just happened seem to draw an attack post from you. Again, in the 125 year history of major league baseball, and all of the individual team seasons that make up that long history, no team has EVER lost 121 games in a single season of baseball. Never. It literally the worst season in the history of major league baseball. It was the sum of these players that created this season. By their very definition, they were the worst collective season of individual players ever to be all on the same team, at the same time. So while you spend time trying to make this notion a character flaw in those who point it out, it does not change the season that just happened. It isn't sunny, or negative, or a kook or whatever else name calling you want to turn it into. It was historically worse than ever. Maybe if you quit attacking people for reminding you of this undisputable fact, every discussion thread wouldn't devolve into exactly this cesspool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteSox2023 Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 He doesn’t care about 121 losses. The Sox were trying to tank, even without the benefit of a top draft pick, and it is in no way a poor reflection on Getz. 🤣🤣🤣 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestEddy Posted February 11 Share Posted February 11 12 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said: I think this is why you get so mad at the mention of 121 losses, as any attempt to characterize the season that just happened seem to draw an attack post from you. Again, in the 125 year history of major league baseball, and all of the individual team seasons that make up that long history, no team has EVER lost 121 games in a single season of baseball. Never. It literally the worst season in the history of major league baseball. It was the sum of these players that created this season. By their very definition, they were the worst collective season of individual players ever to be all on the same team, at the same time. So while you spend time trying to make this notion a character flaw in those who point it out, it does not change the season that just happened. It isn't sunny, or negative, or a kook or whatever else name calling you want to turn it into. It was historically worse than ever. Maybe if you quit attacking people for reminding you of this undisputable fact, every discussion thread wouldn't devolve into exactly this cesspool. Attacking? LOL. Calm down, already. Nobody attacked anybody. I've been very nice, and make sure to let everyone know that I want them to criticize Reinsdorf, Getz and the White Sox. If you want to call 2024 Hot Garbage, I invite you to. Going forward, I disagree. Simple as that. Need a band-aid? Davis Martin made 10 starts and racked up 0.9 bWAR. Sean Burke made 3 and racked up the same 0.9 bWAR. They weren't the problem. Jonathan Cannon made some adjustments and turned out to be a pretty reliable starter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted February 11 Share Posted February 11 17 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said: I think this is why you get so mad at the mention of 121 losses, as any attempt to characterize the season that just happened seem to draw an attack post from you. Again, in the 125 year history of major league baseball, and all of the individual team seasons that make up that long history, no team has EVER lost 121 games in a single season of baseball. Never. It literally the worst season in the history of major league baseball. It was the sum of these players that created this season. By their very definition, they were the worst collective season of individual players ever to be all on the same team, at the same time. So while you spend time trying to make this notion a character flaw in those who point it out, it does not change the season that just happened. It isn't sunny, or negative, or a kook or whatever else name calling you want to turn it into. It was historically worse than ever. Maybe if you quit attacking people for reminding you of this undisputable fact, every discussion thread wouldn't devolve into exactly this cesspool. I do wonder how long he can sustain this Don Quixote-like energy to tilt at windmills...if the White Sox get buried early and Thorpe/Montgomery and B.Montgomery struggle out of the gate and/or are injured. I guess I should be as optimistic as those FutureSox podcasters, but I'm not even all that interested in seeing Schultz or Hagen Smith up at the big league level this year, because it's not like there will be a wave of FA spending next off-season to "jump start" their contention window like the Cubs did with Jon Lester back in the day. It would simply be starting their service time clocks unnecessarily. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted February 11 Share Posted February 11 8 minutes ago, WestEddy said: Attacking? LOL. Calm down, already. Nobody attacked anybody. I've been very nice, and make sure to let everyone know that I want them to criticize Reinsdorf, Getz and the White Sox. If you want to call 2024 Hot Garbage, I invite you to. Going forward, I disagree. Simple as that. Need a band-aid? Davis Martin made 10 starts and racked up 0.9 bWAR. Sean Burke made 3 and racked up the same 0.9 bWAR. They weren't the problem. Jonathan Cannon made some adjustments and turned out to be a pretty reliable starter. So Burke's going to record a 10.8 fWAR over 36 starts? Maybe we should tamper that down to 33 starts and a 9.9 fWAR just to be a little bit more realistic...as DET didn't even start some of their regulars in one of those last games of the season after they'd already clinched and the White Sox were fighting to prevent the all-time record for losses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleAleSox Posted February 11 Share Posted February 11 1 hour ago, TaylorStSox said: Better than Maddux? Sure, why not? Yes that's exactly what I meant. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestEddy Posted February 11 Share Posted February 11 48 minutes ago, caulfield12 said: So Burke's going to record a 10.8 fWAR over 36 starts? Maybe we should tamper that down to 33 starts and a 9.9 fWAR just to be a little bit more realistic...as DET didn't even start some of their regulars in one of those last games of the season after they'd already clinched and the White Sox were fighting to prevent the all-time record for losses. Burke's going to start 33 games, and strike out every batter he faces, throwing 33 perfect games. That should equal 891 strikeouts, but he'll probably have to pitch a perfect, 3-strikeout 10th a couple of times, too. Mark it down, you heard it here, first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted February 11 Share Posted February 11 13 minutes ago, WestEddy said: Burke's going to start 33 games, and strike out every batter he faces, throwing 33 perfect games. That should equal 891 strikeouts, but he'll probably have to pitch a perfect, 3-strikeout 10th a couple of times, too. Mark it down, you heard it here, first. The crazy thing is that Bobby Witt, Jr., had an fWAR which is the equivalent of Burke doing JUST that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestEddy Posted February 11 Share Posted February 11 5 hours ago, GreenSox said: Hahn, in his 2nd rebuild, routinely "lost" those smallish trades, such as peddling relievers at the deadline. He also didn't hit on a thing on the waiver wire (except for a couple of relievers that he would end up dumping for peanuts in July). That contributed to the lack of depth and staying power of the rebuild. And by "lost" I mean the trades didn't help the team; a "win" helps the team. I don't really care about the effect on the other team unless it's disproportionately to the other team's advantage. Getz is starting from a much lower-point than Hahn and has a much tougher rebuilding task. He really needs some hits in these areas. The Sox have a lot of pitchers right on that ML/AAAA precipice and we'll find out some answers this season (which is one reason I wouldn't bother much with these veteran relievers). if a bunch develop, there should be good opportunities for young player for young player trades. Let's get a Carlos Quentin in here. I completely agree with all of this. Yes, he has to start "winning" (I agree with your definition) the Fletcher/Mena, Horn/Thompson trades. So much money and resources have been invested in getting Matt Thompson right to the verge of his real estate career, somebody's got to pay with, at least, a younger version of Matt Thompson. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteSox2023 Posted February 11 Share Posted February 11 (edited) 6 hours ago, WestEddy said: The rotation should be more settled on OD than last year, with 5 strong starters. Last year, Soroka, Flexen and Nastrini were not major league ready. 5 of Perez, Cannon, Martin, Burke, Thorpe, Wilson, Shane Smith, Nobody said that roster problems are a thing of the past. You even just argued with me when I said starting pitching in the minors is facing a bit of a logjam (roster problems) at some levels. What is it with you guys, and the word "excuse"? To say that they made bad roster decisions isn't an excuse. The words "reason" and "excuse" aren't interchangeable. Learn them, okay? I don't care what you believe. (I can feel you and Tony rising up to now argue that I care...) If Bannister and Katz can't teach a new pitch to a 30 year old reliever who has already experienced some success in the big leagues, then there's no point to anything. This is why people can’t always take you seriously and why you come across as biased. You say that the starters that Getz traded away will be selling insurance soon like Mena and Thompson, even though they had similar seasons in AAA as Burke and Cannon and Mena is only 22. Why are Burke and Cannon considered “strong starters” to you, yet Mena and Thompson are near guaranteed failures who will be selling car insurance soon? Edited February 11 by WhiteSox2023 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T R U Posted February 11 Share Posted February 11 4 hours ago, WestEddy said: And we've already had this clarification conversation. If I say a guy like Mason Adams is a legitimate starting pitching prospect, I'm not saying, "Dude, he's super-legit" like he's a sure fire all-star. I'm saying that the team is bringing him along with an eye on getting him major league starter innings. If the Sox pick up, say, Phillip Humber and stow him at AAA, nobody plans for him to be developed into a big league rotational starter, anymore. So, Riley Gowens, or Aldrin Batista have a clear path to big league starter innings if they keep developing. They're legitimate pitching prospects. In the case of Shane Drohan, if the guy wasn't injured, for sure he would have gotten starts before Thorpe, and definitely before Keller and Kuhl. Drohan was mentioned as a rotation option when he was drafted. I don't know if that was bad scouting, or Getz not doing his due diligence, but it happened. I said the Sox had 15 legitimate starting prospects across 4 levels, you asked who, and I listed out about 19-20 guys, including Drohan. I've explained this to you twice, now, and you know it. 2025 - okay, strong is probably the wrong word. Then stable. Sean Burke has been noted in a couple "just missed the top 100" lists. He's a guy. He'll get a chance to start. Davis Martin and Jon Cannon will start games, and will most probably cover 5 innings of those starts. Maybe 6. That will be better than most of the Sox' first month or two of starting pitching in 2024. This, in turn, will keep the bullpen from being taxed like they were in 2024, removing that "excuse". I know your definition of legit prospect is “maybe one day this guy can make some starts at the big league level” which is pretty much a statement that could be made about every single pitcher in the system. When your #1 starter is either Davis/Burke/Cannon you’re in trouble. Burke was 7-22 with an ERA over 5.00 in his minor league career but his 3 starts in garbage time last season already has you locking him in as a solid, reliable rotation fixture next season. It’s crazy talk. I get you want to be the optimist guy but can you at least be realistic about it. Cannon is the only arm in the rotation at this point in time who has shown any glimpse of reliable and that’s a 4.5 ERA guy with no overpowering stuff. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lip Man 1 Posted February 11 Share Posted February 11 11 minutes ago, T R U said: I know your definition of legit prospect is “maybe one day this guy can make some starts at the big league level” which is pretty much a statement that could be made about every single pitcher in the system. When your #1 starter is either Davis/Burke/Cannon you’re in trouble. Burke was 7-22 with an ERA over 5.00 in his minor league career but his 3 starts in garbage time last season already has you locking him in as a solid, reliable rotation fixture next season. It’s crazy talk. I get you want to be the optimist guy but can you at least be realistic about it. Cannon is the only arm in the rotation at this point in time who has shown any glimpse of reliable and that’s a 4.5 ERA guy with no overpowering stuff. Given the uncertainty surrounding Thorpe and the usual incompetence from the Sox organization anybody who projects him to be a solid starter (at least without TJS) is delusional. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T R U Posted February 11 Share Posted February 11 9 minutes ago, Lip Man 1 said: Given the uncertainty surrounding Thorpe and the usual incompetence from the Sox organization anybody who projects him to be a solid starter (at least without TJS) is delusional. Well he’s had setbacks and prolly starts the year on the IL so who even knows when we see him again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted February 11 Share Posted February 11 (edited) 20 minutes ago, T R U said: I know your definition of legit prospect is “maybe one day this guy can make some starts at the big league level” which is pretty much a statement that could be made about every single pitcher in the system. When your #1 starter is either Davis/Burke/Cannon you’re in trouble. Burke was 7-22 with an ERA over 5.00 in his minor league career but his 3 starts in garbage time last season already has you locking him in as a solid, reliable rotation fixture next season. It’s crazy talk. I get you want to be the optimist guy but can you at least be realistic about it. Cannon is the only arm in the rotation at this point in time who has shown any glimpse of reliable and that’s a 4.5 ERA guy with no overpowering stuff. Sean Burke, RHP, Chicago White Sox His delivery is good enough for him to have at least average control, and he gets excellent extension over his front side. If he stays off the injured list, and just improves the changeup a little bit through repetitions, he's a potential No. 3 starter.Jan 29, 2025... MLB prospects who just missed Keith Law's top 100 ranking That's where a LOT of the Burke love is coming from, the Keith Law write-up...technically, that puts Burke over Colson Montgomery. Cannon looks more like a decent 4/5 starter, Burke's all over the map of possibilities, Davis Martin is likely to be traded at some point as he starts hitting arbitration (but his future salaries will be somewhat suppressed by missed time due to injuries), Martin Perez is just rotation filler and will likely be traded (if he pitches like 2nd half 2024), Wilson is trade bait/filler unless he can unlock something in his arsenal heretofore "hidden"...I don't think ANYONE could honestly look at that projected rotation and conjure up the description "STRONG" by any reasonable stretch of the imagination. As far as depth, FutureSox posters are already speculating about the "excess" of arms in the Sox system and coming up with such names as Eder, Bush, Nastrini and Carela as trade bait, but what they're worth collectively right now IS NOT VERY MUCH. Edited February 11 by caulfield12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TaylorStSox Posted February 11 Share Posted February 11 (edited) 14 hours ago, Y2Jimmy0 said: I just think it's too early to make these determinations. Fedde/Kopech deadline deal looks pretty bad right now. Bummer trade isn't great either. I don't really have any issue with the others as of now. Perez and Albertus are going to tell us a lot about where the Sox are as an organization. They're the type of of prospects that really good organizations turn into major leaguers. Albertus has pure tools across the board and Perez is solid fundamentally with real pop. The Sox need to turn at least 1 into an every day player. Vargas is the definition of an "I can fix him" prospect and I'd be surprised if anyone actually can. Vargas is like your buddy's hot girlfriend that sucks to be around. Looks the part, solid approach, solid power, pretty swing, hits like s%*#. I like Getz overall plan, and appreciate the transparency, but if these trades that most people think are insignificant don't hit, he's doomed. Hot take: I like the trio of Zavala, Albertus and Perez better than Ramos, Colas and Sosa, but I'll still be really disappointed if neither Ramos nor Sosa don't become regulars for somebody. Sosa can flat out hit and Ramos is solid everywhere. Colas is a non prospect whose ability might buy him 3 years as a 25th man somewhere. Great tools but he's high maintenance in every part of his game. He still might make a great pich hitter or defensive replacement though. I'm sure he'll be a 2.5 WAR player somewhere because White Sox. Edited February 11 by TaylorStSox Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted February 11 Share Posted February 11 20 hours ago, WestEddy said: Nope. You're playing word games. You guys ask me a question, and I'll give you a full, good faith answer. I thought this board was a little more jokey when I amped up last winter. But apparently, me being light about the bullpen and "Nicky .300" really hurt some people. Here's a list of pitchers who could very well be vying for spots in the AAA rotation: Iriarte, Nastrini, Eder, W. Gonzalez, Ky Bush, Mason Adams, Justin Dunn, and Thorpe will probably rehab there. That's 8 starters. AA: Schultz, Tyler Schweitzer, Gowens, Juan Carella That's only 4, but maybe they get Adams back until the logjam at AAA clears. Some of the guys behind them will be pushing quickly. High-A: Hagen Smith, Grant Taylor, Tanner McDougal, Shane Murphy, Lucas Gordon, Tommy Vail, Aldrin Batista, Seth Keener, John Bockenstedt 9 guys. Some of these guys, like Bockenstedt might be bounced out or to the bullpen. But already, they're backing up. Batista is borderline AA. Hagen Smith will move quickly. There might be lingering injuries, but you see the jam forming. Low-A: Jake Peppers, Ricardo Brizuela, Carlton Perkins, Justin Sinibaldi You also have Christian Oppor, Mathias LaCombe, Blake Larson, Maximo Martinez. There's a couple more I'm not recognizing because of bad numbers, but they have stuff, and Getz still wants them. Some guys here will argue that we only really have 2-1/2 pitching prospects in the system. Schultz, Hagen Smith and Grant Taylor. But there's a whole slew of these guys who are actual prospects that need to throw innings every 5. I just listed 29 guys for 20-24 rotation spots. No, they're not all sexy, and some will be an easy call to toss in the bullpen. But you read and listen to the same stuff I do. To pretend that you don't know any of this is silly. We have a glut of pitching, and we'll be adding to it in this year's draft. So anybody thinking I'm "full of it" is just being argumentative. The fun thing is that before making a post like this, you just made a contention that we don't have enough pitchers for MLB, yet there is this entire list of AAA pitchers who are soooo important. There are plenty of future relievers in that list at AAA, and plenty that would have been just fine in MLBs pen instead of wasting low level guys. This also would have lightened this panic situation of too many pitchers in the minors. Instead of this, we artificially blocked the guys from moving up by bringing in more pitchers at the top. Realistically this is Chris Getz admitting that the guys at the top are guys he doesn't trust, and he'd rather block them with middle aged relievers than actually use them at the next level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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