Look at Ray Ray Run Posted April 30 Share Posted April 30 2 hours ago, WestEddy said: Can you tell us how they "ruined" him? And why working with him to get his swing right is bad? Hmm, draft a player who goes on to get worse every year after showing talent, success and tools at lower levels. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestEddy Posted April 30 Share Posted April 30 8 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said: Hmm, draft a player who goes on to get worse every year after showing talent, success and tools at lower levels. Yeah, that doesn't tell me *how* they ruined him. Players hit their ceiling at certain levels, or backslide due to issues. You're accusing them of "ruining" Montgomery. I'm just wondering if you actually know that, or are just saying that. And why is it "bad" that they're tackling his issues head on with one on one work? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteSox2023 Posted April 30 Share Posted April 30 The Sox should not get any benefit of the doubt when it comes to developing position players. What star players have they developed in recent history? Tim Anderson, who fell apart before he turned 30? Congrats. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted April 30 Share Posted April 30 7 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said: The Sox should not get any benefit of the doubt when it comes to developing position players. What star players have they developed in recent history? Tim Anderson, who fell apart before he turned 30? Congrats. Mostly lefty pitchers. I've never really cared how the players on the MLB roster got there. I guess home grown is nice. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteSox2023 Posted April 30 Share Posted April 30 11 minutes ago, Texsox said: Mostly lefty pitchers. I've never really cared how the players on the MLB roster got there. I guess home grown is nice. I was referring to position players. Starting pitchers is about the only thing they can identify and develop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted April 30 Share Posted April 30 1 hour ago, WhiteSox2023 said: I was referring to position players. Starting pitchers is about the only thing they can identify and develop. Which actually seems kinda crazy. You would think developing a right fielder would be easier. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted April 30 Share Posted April 30 2 hours ago, WestEddy said: So you're saying that teams always coordinate their development plan for any particular player with their agency and agency coaches, but the Sox keep dropping that into the media to make an issue of that? If that's the case, I don't see why you jumped on me for previously saying that it's normal for players to seek outside input to improve their game. That would seem like you agree with me on that. There it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestEddy Posted April 30 Share Posted April 30 7 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said: There it is. There's a question mark after that. You have no proof that's the case, either. But I'm glad you finally agree that it's no indictment of an organization when players seek out their own coaching or their agency provides outside coaching for them, as it's widespread in the industry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted April 30 Share Posted April 30 8 minutes ago, WestEddy said: There's a question mark after that. You have no proof that's the case, either. But I'm glad you finally agree that it's no indictment of an organization when players seek out their own coaching or their agency provides outside coaching for them, as it's widespread in the industry. I just think it is amazing that you were able to now accept it as ok after freaking out about it previously, but only because you were instantly able to pivot to it being the cause of his problems, aka, the deflection of it being the Sox fault, but instead it was Montgomerys people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted May 1 Share Posted May 1 Interesting listening to the baseball america podcast. They identified that his issue is almost exclusively swing decisions. How it's gotten real bad year over years His ev, launch angles and others have improved. Their suggestion was that is fixable but he would probably need a drastic measure like going to Arizona to get out of game and work on getting the decision making back. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestEddy Posted May 1 Share Posted May 1 1 hour ago, southsider2k5 said: I just think it is amazing that you were able to now accept it as ok after freaking out about it previously, but only because you were instantly able to pivot to it being the cause of his problems, aka, the deflection of it being the Sox fault, but instead it was Montgomerys people. I have no idea what you're talking about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted May 1 Share Posted May 1 1 hour ago, WestEddy said: I have no idea what you're talking about. Solid strategy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted May 1 Share Posted May 1 3 hours ago, WestEddy said: There's a question mark after that. You have no proof that's the case, either. But I'm glad you finally agree that it's no indictment of an organization when players seek out their own coaching or their agency provides outside coaching for them, as it's widespread in the industry. The first player I remember going outside the organization was Frank Thomas. So it's been going on for decades. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestEddy Posted May 1 Share Posted May 1 16 minutes ago, Texsox said: The first player I remember going outside the organization was Frank Thomas. So it's been going on for decades. Yeah, didn't the White Sox hire Hrniak because Thomas was working with him? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted May 1 Share Posted May 1 8 hours ago, WestEddy said: Yeah, didn't the White Sox hire Hrniak because Thomas was working with him? My memory has it the opposite, they fired him but Frank kept working with him. Someone will remember it correctly. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted May 1 Share Posted May 1 It's not your fault, Getzie... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted May 1 Share Posted May 1 10 hours ago, WestEddy said: Yeah, didn't the White Sox hire Hrniak because Thomas was working with him? No they fired him, and Frank went to him when he struggled after he was gone. Apparently he was a little to gruff for some of the players. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted May 1 Share Posted May 1 21 minutes ago, Dick Allen said: No they fired him, and Frank went to him when he struggled after he was gone. Apparently he was a little to gruff for some of the players. Famously never got along with a young Panther-esque Sammy Sosa. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lip Man 1 Posted May 1 Share Posted May 1 3 hours ago, caulfield12 said: Famously never got along with a young Panther-esque Sammy Sosa. Nor Cory Snyder. Some guys simply couldn't adapt to the style Hriniak wanted and they really struggled. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Posted May 1 Share Posted May 1 (edited) It's not good when a player is struggling badly enough that you want to do something drastic like this. Definitely a negative indicator for the future. Sometimes when I see a guy struggling in the minors, you will think or hear that "there's time for him to improve" and other such hopeful things. But I'll wonder, who are the guys who had a legitimately hard time in the minors or had a particular problem and actually rallied back and solved it? Most players who have a horrible season in the minors are just not good and that's that. Saying that a guy is young and there's time to fix it can feel a lot like cope. [Side note: a large portion of the major turnarounds in quality of play seem to be pitchers] So I appreciated Getz mentioning Geraldo Perdomo and Barfield's experience with him in the AZ organization. Perdomo hit a hard wall in AA and was putting up numbers rather similar to Colson there (Perdomo struck out less, but still a lot for a hitter with a lot less power than Colson). Arizona sent him to extended spring for an entire month to work on his mechanics and let him clear his head. And then he went on a rampage, posting a .930 OPS for the rest of the season across AA and a brief promotion to AAA. He even had a strong week of hitting in MLB as a September callup. Given that Perdomo is a completely solid MLB starting SS, I accept that as a nice success story and a sign that this kind of move can work. There's also a warning in there, I think: Perdomo had a horrific first full MLB season the following year before an all-star sophomore effort, so this roller coaster may have multiple peaks and valleys. Edited May 1 by Jake 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted May 1 Share Posted May 1 1 hour ago, Jake said: It's not good when a player is struggling badly enough that you want to do something drastic like this. Definitely a negative indicator for the future. Sometimes when I see a guy struggling in the minors, you will think or hear that "there's time for him to improve" and other such hopeful things. But I'll wonder, who are the guys who had a legitimately hard time in the minors or had a particular problem and actually rallied back and solved it? Most players who have a horrible season in the minors are just not good and that's that. Saying that a guy is young and there's time to fix it can feel a lot like cope. [Side note: a large portion of the major turnarounds in quality of play seem to be pitchers] So I appreciated Getz mentioning Geraldo Perdomo and Barfield's experience with him in the AZ organization. Perdomo hit a hard wall in AA and was putting up numbers rather similar to Colson there (Perdomo struck out less, but still a lot for a hitter with a lot less power than Colson). Arizona sent him to extended spring for an entire month to work on his mechanics and let him clear his head. And then he went on a rampage, posting a .930 OPS for the rest of the season across AA and a brief promotion to AAA. He even had a strong week of hitting in MLB as a September callup. Given that Perdomo is a completely solid MLB starting SS, I accept that as a nice success story and a sign that this kind of move can work. There's also a warning in there, I think: Perdomo had a horrific first full MLB season the following year before an all-star sophomore effort, so this roller coaster may have multiple peaks and valleys. Yes, and they will always point out the sucesses. Odds are, it won't propel him back to future star status, but it's probably a better look than a demotion. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Look at Ray Ray Run Posted June 25 Share Posted June 25 How's this working out? Haven't heard any updates on Colson's slash line "since Arizona." 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
champagne030 Posted June 25 Share Posted June 25 2 hours ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said: How's this working out? Haven't heard any updates on Colson's slash line "since Arizona." 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Sacamano Posted June 25 Share Posted June 25 2 hours ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said: How's this working out? Haven't heard any updates on Colson's slash line "since Arizona." Not good 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted June 25 Share Posted June 25 Not going to lie, I was hoping this would do the trick. It would be nice to get some actual high ceiling position players on to the roster. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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