What's the bullpen solution (knowing JR will never spend here)...?

[caulfield12]

For now, it's shaping up like Grant Taylor, Pallette, Coffey....Wikelman is also now pitching out of the bullpen.  Someone else was a huge Garrett Schoenle fan and kept naming him, Coffey and Pallette on a consistent basis.

Any other ideas?

 

Grant Taylor not starting is already a source of much consternation...so converting Oppor or Tanner McDougal (he's much likelier than Oppor) will be other "next steps" here.

 

They can trade guys like Martin Perez (hopefully in July), maybe Martin (a lot of posters absolutely HATE that move, the other half are advising it), Adrian Houser...but who are your building your rotation around then after the Smith(s) and Schultz?

 

 

27	Jarold Rosado	22.8	AA	SIRP	2026	40 (don't know anything about him, but he's in BIRM)
28	Nick Nastrini	25.2	MLB	SIRP	2025	40 (terrible season so far)
29	Eric Adler	24.5	AAA	SIRP	2026	40 (possibility)
30	Pierce George	21.9	A	SIRP	2028	40 (don't know anything about him, but 10+ ERA in A ball)
31	Peyton Pallette	23.9	AA	SIRP	2026	40 (his name is showing up every single day in threads)
32	Seth Keener	23.5	A+	SIRP	2026	40 (absolutely bombed in the minors this year)
33	Blake Larson	19.2	R	SP	2029	35+ (TJS)
34	Wilfred Veras	22.4	AA	RF	2026	35+
35	Javier Mogollon	19.5	A	2B	2028	35+
36	Carson Jacobs	23.7	A+	SIRP	2027	35+ (9.92 ERA currently)
37	Mike Vasil	25.1	MLB	SP	2025	35+ (in the big league bullpen)
38	Owen White	25.7	MLB	SP	2025	35+ (looks more like a swing man/AAAA guy at this point)
39	Greg Jones	27.1	MLB	CF	2025	35+
40	Alejandro Cruz	18.3	R	3B	2031	35+

[Bob Sacamano]

What? It’s like the one area he doesn’t seem to care if they spend since it’s an area that you spend less on good players compared to starters and position players lol

[GreenSox]

The solution is mostly in Birmingham, and otherwise internal.   Some of the guys in this pen would be fine in the bottom of a good pen.

The solution is not to start draft college relievers or to focus free-agent resources, whatever they may be, on relief pitching.

 

[caulfield12]

Schweitzer's stuff isn't good enough for the bullpen...right?   Other than longman/swing-man/garbage innings in blowouts...

[Lip Man 1]

The solution is for new ownership to bring in competent people at all levels and areas who know how to judge talent, acquire talent, refine talent and keep talent healthy.

Until then we get crap. End of story.

[caulfield12]

21 minutes ago, Lip Man 1 said:

The solution is for new ownership to bring in competent people at all levels and areas who know how to judge talent, acquire talent, refine talent and keep talent healthy.

Until then we get crap. End of story.

Well, they hardly got much of a return on investment in Hendriks (health/TJS/cancer), Kimbrel (which led to Pollock with led to Benintendi signing), Graveman, Kelly, Bummer, etc.

At one point in 2021-2022, they had the most expensive bullpen in MLB history, in fact.

 

[Boopa1219]

2 hours ago, Bob Sacamano said:

What? It’s like the one area he doesn’t seem to care if they spend since it’s an area that you spend less on good players compared to starters and position players lol

I was about to say…

The 2021-2024 Sox, probably 40% of that payroll went to the bullpen. 

[Lip Man 1]

2 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

Well, they hardly got much of a return on investment in Hendriks (health/TJS/cancer), Kimbrel (which led to Pollock with led to Benintendi signing), Graveman, Kelly, Bummer, etc.

At one point in 2021-2022, they had the most expensive bullpen in MLB history, in fact.

 

And outside of Liam they all sucked because this ownership/front office wouldn't know talent or be able to develop talent if it bit them on the ass.

[caulfield12]

35 minutes ago, Lip Man 1 said:

And outside of Liam they all sucked because this ownership/front office wouldn't know talent or be able to develop talent if it bit them on the ass.

Not to mention Lynn Graveman and Kelly each turned out to be clubhouse cancers...

[Boopa1219]

They got to sign a veteran closer this winter, even if they end up trading him at the deadline. They have to sign someone who has ample experience closing out games. I think a problem with the pen is that the guys currently here are pitching in roles they have no business being in currently. 

[caulfield12]

RP: Scott Barlow, Kyle Finnegan, Chad Green, Hunter Harvey, Raisel Iglesias, Luke Jackson, Kenley Jansen, Tommy Kahnle, Jose Leclerc, Chris Martin, Shelby Miller, Emilio Pagán, Ryan Pressly, Tyler Rogers, Jordan Romano, Paul Sewald, Ryne Stanek, Luke Weaver, Kirby Yates

Good luck with that list of FA's.

[Kyyle23]

9 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

Well, they hardly got much of a return on investment in Hendriks (health/TJS/cancer), Kimbrel (which led to Pollock with led to Benintendi signing), Graveman, Kelly, Bummer, etc.

At one point in 2021-2022, they had the most expensive bullpen in MLB history, in fact.

 

Man this s%*# is ridiculous to even argue with you because this is so normal, but before he was so inconvenienced by Cancer as to ruin the investment of the third year, he was coming off 2 seasons where he saved 75 games with an ERA of 2.6 and was an all star both seasons.  I would say up until his extremely unfortunate diagnosis, he was worth every penny 

[tray]

10 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

For now, it's shaping up like Grant Taylor, Pallette, Coffey....Wikelman is also now pitching out of the bullpen.  Someone else was a huge Garrett Schoenle fan and kept naming him, Coffey and Pallette on a consistent basis.

Any other ideas?

 

Grant Taylor not starting is already a source of much consternation...so converting Oppor or Tanner McDougal (he's much likelier than Oppor) will be other "next steps" here.

 

 

Hard to maintain focus on the need for a Closer when the Sox only score one run.  On that note, bring up Kyle Teel.

[caulfield12]

35 minutes ago, Kyyle23 said:

Man this s%*# is ridiculous to even argue with you because this is so normal, but before he was so inconvenienced by Cancer as to ruin the investment of the third year, he was coming off 2 seasons where he saved 75 games with an ERA of 2.6 and was an all star both seasons.  I would say up until his extremely unfortunate diagnosis, he was worth every penny 

$54 million for 4.2 fWAR and they're still paying on that contract...which continues to make a pretty compelling case for why JR won't run that risk again, along with how much they paid Kimbrel Kelly Graveman and Bummer.

[Kyyle23]

8 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

$54 million for 4.2 fWAR and they're still paying on that contract...which continues to make a pretty compelling case for why JR won't run that risk again, along with how much they paid Kimbrel Kelly Graveman and Bummer.

Not Caulfield moving the goalposts again, I can’t believe it

[caulfield12]

19 minutes ago, tray said:

Hard to maintain focus on the need for a Closer when the Sox only score one run.  On that note, bring up Kyle Teel.

But they've blown almost twenty leads this season.  Their overall record should be much closer to the Angels than Rockies by pythagorean.

Plus...when the entire team starts to not believe they  can win close and tight games, it makes the manager's job that much harder.

[Falstaff]

Could the Sox develop a closer similar how Liam Hendricks morphed from a failed starter to the bullpen and then eventually the closer role?

[caulfield12]

24 minutes ago, Kyyle23 said:

Not Caulfield moving the goalposts again, I can’t believe it

I wrote exactly what happened to him in my first post.

So your argument is that it was a good investment?

Let's imagine he didn't get hurt.  You can have your three years at 6.35 fWAR produced.

$8.5 million per fWAR is the ratio you end up with...which is pretty close to in line for fair market value for FA fWAR...especially for a closer.

So would JR look back on it as the correct decision regardless of what happened in reality or a mistake or neither?

The point wasn't even about Hendriks per se, but the cumulative impact of spending tens of millions on a bullpen with extremely disappointing ROI across a handful of players.

Edited May 27 by caulfield12

[caulfield12]

8 minutes ago, Falstaff said:

Could the Sox develop a closer similar how Liam Hendricks morphed from a failed starter to the bullpen and then eventually the closer role?

Or Keith Foulke...or Bobby Jenks...or Sergio Santos, sure, why not?

That's where 75% of closers come from.

Grant Taylor would join a long long long list of guys deemed not durable enough to start long-term....without encountering major health problems eg. mechanical issues leading to physical breakdowns.

Fwiw Oppor and McDougal would be two more worthy candidates.

[Kyyle23]

29 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

I wrote exactly what happened to him in my first post.

So your argument is that it was a good investment?

Let's imagine he didn't get hurt.  You can have your three years at 6.35 fWAR produced.

$8.5 million per fWAR is the ratio you end up with...which is pretty close to in line for fair market value for FA fWAR...especially for a closer.

So would JR look back on it as the correct decision regardless of what happened in reality or a mistake or neither?

The point wasn't even about Hendriks per se, but the cumulative impact of spending tens of millions on a bullpen with extremely disappointing ROI across a handful of players.

You turned this into a dollar per WAR argument because your argument sucked so bad man.  This s%*# is so tired with you.  Sitting here trying to argue that Hendriks was a bad investment because he got cancer in the final year of his contract and wasn’t able to pitch is right on par with trying to start s%*# with Balta about Clevinger last week. 
 

don’t tell me what the point was.  All you do is change yours 

[WhiteSox2023]

19 minutes ago, Kyyle23 said:

You turned this into a dollar per WAR argument because your argument sucked so bad man.  This s%*# is so tired with you.  Sitting here trying to argue that Hendriks was a bad investment because he got cancer in the final year of his contract and wasn’t able to pitch is right on par with trying to start s%*# with Balta about Clevinger last week. 
 

don’t tell me what the point was.  All you do is change yours 

Jerry has a lot more bad signings made by his GMs over the years to be upset about being a waste of money rather than a closer who did a bunch for the community and was an All-Star in his first two seasons in a White Sox uniform before his stage 4 non-Hodgkin's lymphoma diagnosis.

[southsider2k5]

Of all years to waste payroll dollars on a bullpen, coming off of a 41 win season is not it.  This is the year for internal candidates and grabbing interesting waiver claims.  Wins and losses won't matter for years, but getting longer term control guys will.

[caulfield12]

31 minutes ago, Kyyle23 said:

You turned this into a dollar per WAR argument because your argument sucked so bad man.  This s%*# is so tired with you.  Sitting here trying to argue that Hendriks was a bad investment because he got cancer in the final year of his contract and wasn’t able to pitch is right on par with trying to start s%*# with Balta about Clevinger last week. 
 

don’t tell me what the point was.  All you do is change yours 

Well let's all fucking pick on Kimbrel Graveman Kelly and Bummer instead. Because nobody in the entire SoxTalk world will defend them, right?  I mean we've already dragged 60-75% of the 2000-2003 roster through the mud for the past three years...as if they just magically appeared on the Sox roster out of thin air and absolutely nobody was responsible for bringing on board such players of poor or flawed character.

Might as well give Hahn another executive of the year award for signing Robertson while we're at it.  That wasn't such a bad move compared to Melky and LaRoche after all.

 

Plus I didn't fucking change the point.

I wrote Tommy John cancer health in the first post...sure the White Sox probably even took out an insurance policy so they recovered 60% of the value for the last year anyway.  I didn't write that Liam Hendriks performed poorly at any point.  He was exactly what an elite closer was in that generation of pitchers...87.5-90% or something like that save conversion success rate who blew up spectacularly from time to time.  

The point is that the overall return on investment for spending all that money on the bullpen didn't turn out so great.

I didn't think that was even a controversial opinion that was debatable.

Instead of talking about our current bullpen problems...you want to make emotional/sentimental arguments when major league GM's can't ever afford to think in those terms.

[caulfield12]

26 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Of all years to waste payroll dollars on a bullpen, coming off of a 41 win season is not it.  This is the year for internal candidates and grabbing interesting waiver claims.  Wins and losses won't matter for years, but getting longer term control guys will.

So you agree or disagree with Ptac about making Taylor the annointed closer of the future?

[Kyyle23]

13 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Well let's all fucking pick on Kimbrel Graveman Kelly and Bummer instead. Because nobody in the entire SoxTalk world will defend them, right?  I mean we've already dragged 60-75% of the 2000-2003 roster through the mud for the past three years...as if they just magically appeared on the Sox roster out of thin air and absolutely nobody was responsible for bringing on board such players of poor or flawed character.

Might as well give Hahn another executive of the year award for signing Robertson while we're at it.  That wasn't such a bad move compared to Melky and LaRoche after all.

 

Plus I didn't fucking change the point.

I wrote Tommy John cancer health in the first post...sure the White Sox probably even took out an insurance policy so they recovered 60% of the value for the last year anyway.  I didn't write that Liam Hendriks performed poorly at any point.  He was exactly what an elite closer was in that generation of pitchers...87.5-90% or something like that save conversion success rate who blew up spectacularly from time to time.  

The point is that the overall return on investment for spending all that money on the bullpen didn't turn out so great.

I didn't think that was even a controversial opinion that was debatable.

Instead of talking about our current bullpen problems...you want to make emotional/sentimental arguments when major league GM's can't ever afford to think in those terms.

Don’t get in your feelings now because yet again you make a wild statement and someone says “that didn’t make sense”

you absolutely changed the point, you said they hardly got much in return for the investment in Hendriks.  In this very response you are like OK FINE LETS TALK ABOUT BUMMER KELLY ETC.

man, YOU brought Hendriks up and YOU said he hardly provided a return.  Not me or anyone else.  Now you wanna act all mad when I say that’s BS he provided all star level production for two seasons before cancer, and you immediately change to a dollar per WAR.