Sox trade Andrew Vaughn to acquire Aaron Civale

[T R U]

Just now, chitownsportsfan said:

I don't think it's that deep. Walking into your job when you're losing every day sucks. When you go to LA, and suddenly you're on a winning team of course it's a breath of fresh air. Kopech clearly didn't have something the Sox just missed, he's just not very good and like all mediocre pitchers occasionally he'll have a decent stretch.

I agree that going through a 162 game grind on a team dead in the water is probably quite miserable, regardless of how much money you are being paid. 

[Tony]

3 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

That's kind of what Kopech seems to be saying in your quotes. But yeah, good vibes made him mix his pitches more. I guess. 

He literally says "We changed some things" when asked the question about approaches between the Sox and Dodgers, lol. 

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

22 minutes ago, T R U said:

WestEddy is saying the Sox "fixed him" 5 outings before he was traded, therefor, the Dodgers have nothing to do with it. It's best to just move on with your life.

I don't see much noticeable change with the White Sox in pitch mix:

April-June, his four seam usage was right around 78.25%

June through end of July it was 77.5%

August and September it was 77%

If the transformation was one less fastball per 100 pitches, I'm having a hard time buying it.

[WestEddy]

21 minutes ago, Tony said:

If you're going to base your argument on the words from Kopech, these also seem important:

- As a Dodger, shortly after being traded from the White Sox:

- An interview with PitcherList after the trade:

I don't really have a horse in this race, but to say going from the 2024 White Sox to the 2024 Dodgers had no impact on Kopech, that he simply brought over exactly what he was doing with the White Sox to the Dodgers is silly. 

 

I just read this a 2nd time. Not saying going to the Dodgers had "no impact". OP said Kopech basically sucked here, got traded, made changes, and became awesome, which isn't the case at all. He sucked here, started listening to his coaches, had a good, albeit short, stretch, got traded, and continued being effective. 

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

If anything, the Dodgers told him to just throw his fastball and slider and to scrap everything else, while the White Sox had him throwing 4 pitches.

[WestEddy]

2 minutes ago, Tony said:

He literally says "We changed some things" when asked the question about approaches between the Sox and Dodgers, lol. 

I don't know what to tell you, Tony. 

Quote

They just reiterated that they believe in what I have. And so when I first got here, they were just like, we just want you to go do what you do. We changed some things. We talked about tightening up the slider. And for most part, it was just telling me to go out there and pitch with what I have, and I’ve been encouraged to do that.

I see that he says they changed some things. I acknowledge that. At some point, maybe some of the people piling on here and misrepresenting my point will acknowledge that Kopech seems to be saying that there was no drastic mechanical change that resulted in him becoming a lock down closer with the Dodgers. It's almost like he's saying the main difference was atmosphere, not like the Dodgers reworked his delivery or taught him a pitch. 

[T R U]

8 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

I just read this a 2nd time. Not saying going to the Dodgers had "no impact". OP said Kopech basically sucked here, got traded, made changes, and became awesome, which isn't the case at all. He sucked here, started listening to his coaches, had a good, albeit short, stretch, got traded, and continued being effective. 

Kopech DID suck here. You're the one who is saying 5 inning before he was traded he got fixed and that's why he did what he did with the Dodgers. That's just conjecture on your part as all quotes being tossed around for this seem contradictory.

Bottom line is, this is now the second guy in practically the stretch of a year who was not good in the Sox uniform, was traded, and all of the sudden they are performing at an elite level with their new team.

Again I say, this is more of an indictment on the Sox inability to get the most out of their players. This is not a Kopech/Vaughn issue, this has happened a lot here with several players.

[WestEddy]

15 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

If anything, the Dodgers told him to just throw his fastball and slider and to scrap everything else, while the White Sox had him throwing 4 pitches.

Kopech was 4-seam, cutter, slider with the Sox, and in his first few games with the Dodgers, Kopech was mostly 4-seam and cutter. After a couple games, he was throwing the same 3-pitch mix he did for the White Sox. 

[Lip Man 1]

Jake Diekman is another one who improved a lot as soon as the Sox dumped him and Chris Flexen was basically unhittable for the first three months of this season with the Cubs.  

[T R U]

Just now, Lip Man 1 said:

Jake Diekman is another one who improved a lot as soon as the Sox dumped him and Chris Flexen was basically unhittable for the first three months of this season with the Cubs.  

Good call, I forgot about him. 7.04 ERA with the Sox, was so bad they had to just DFA him in 2023. Spends the rest of the year putting up a 2.18 ERA across 45 innings with the Rays.

That's just simply not a bad stretch, there is something else going on there.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

I think his slider was being classed incorrectly his last few appearances of 2024 as a cutter. He talked about them tightening the spin and the velo was up a little. 

I dont really have much to go on outside of visual, but just my thoughts. 

[WestEddy]

38 minutes ago, T R U said:

Kopech DID suck here. You're the one who is saying 5 inning before he was traded he got fixed and that's why he did what he did with the Dodgers. That's just conjecture on your part as all quotes being tossed around for this seem contradictory.

Bottom line is, this is now the second guy in practically the stretch of a year who was not good in the Sox uniform, was traded, and all of the sudden they are performing at an elite level with their new team.

Again I say, this is more of an indictment on the Sox inability to get the most out of their players. This is not a Kopech/Vaughn issue, this has happened a lot here with several players.

Nobody's saying the White Sox "fixed" him, because he didn't need "fixing". None of what I'm saying is conjecture. It is chiseled in stone, verifiable fact. 

On July 7th last year, Kopech started the bottom of the 9th against the Marlins in a game the White Sox led 4-3. Kopech faced Vidal Brujan and walked him on six 4-seamers. The next batter was Nick Fortes, who bunted the first pitch, a 4-seam fastball for a sacrifice. The next batter was Jazz Chisolm, who hit the first pitch, a 4-seam fastball for a flyout. Josh Bell came up next, saw six 4-seam fastballs, and hit a double. 

Do you see a pattern here?

Jesus Sanchez was the next batter, and Kopech started him off with a cutter for a strike. He then threw a 4-seamer outside, and another cutter in the dirt before they called an intentional walk. Jake Burger came up next, saw three 4-seam fastballs, and hit a three-run HR. 

Kopech said this after the game: “It’s coming down to what we talked about a lot lately in-house,” Kopech said. “I need to mix my pitches and not just rely on the fastball so much. It’s difficult to do that when I fall behind and my best pitch is my fastball. I have to get back in the count.”

In Kopech's next outing, the 10th inning against the Twins at home on the 8th, Kopech threw 10 pitches, and in no sequence did he throw more than two 4-seam fastballs in a row. See? He started mixing his pitches better. He had said in interviews that the coaches were telling him to mix his pitches. He said Korey Lee helped him be more comfortable with that. That is what happened. His next 4 outings, he mixed his pitches and everything went smoothly. 

He didn't gain any MPH on his fastball. No extra movement on his cutter or slider. He didn't rework his delivery to hide the ball longer, or whatnot. He stopped throwing the same pitch every single pitch. That is the change he made. He said it was. White Sox people said it was. Dodger people told him to just keep doing what he's been doing, which, now, was mixing his pitches better like the Sox had been harping on him to do, which is all documented and not made up. 

Oh, okay. He felt happier being at work. But it was the same damned pitch shapes and speeds he was throwing with the White Sox. No changes. 

The more you dig in, the more obvious it becomes that The White Sox are clearly not at fault where it comes to Kopech. We all agree he's a head case for the ages. He came out and said he wasn't listening to his coaches, and once he did, he started seeing better results. 

The only logical answer you have now is "Wow, WestEddy, you've been right all along, and I'm just digging in and arguing nonsense because if I give in, that will mean that there is now at least one, single thing the White Sox did right, and this entire BS narrative that gets pushed here is really nonsense."

 

Edited August 21 by WestEddy

[WhiteSox2023]

3 hours ago, WestEddy said:

Yes, that is my argument, because that is irrefutable fact backed up by multiple accounts, including Kopech's own words. The only acceptable response for any reasonable person is, "yes, westeddy, you are correct. Those things you pointed out did happen in that order."

24 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

The only logical answer you have now is "Wow, WestEddy, you've been right all along, and I'm just digging in and arguing nonsense because if I give in, that will mean that there is now at least one, single thing the White Sox did right, and this entire BS narrative that gets pushed here is really nonsense."

You really need to work on your God complex.  No one is buying it but you.  Also, only Greg can talk about himself in the third person.  You aren’t that cool.  🤣

Edited August 21 by WhiteSox2023

[WestEddy]

Just now, WhiteSox2023 said:

You really need to work on your God complex.  No one is buying it but you.  Also, only Greg can talk about himself in the third person.  You aren’t that cool.  🤣

No, the wrong people need to work on their wrong complex. I'm tired of quoting actual facts - things that actually happened, and that the people involved said actually happened, and wrong people dig in and argue that everybody on Earth's lying because acknowledging reality would mean the White Sox maybe do one thing right, and that would destroy their narratives. 

[WhiteSox2023]

11 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

No, the wrong people need to work on their wrong complex. I'm tired of quoting actual facts - things that actually happened, and that the people involved said actually happened, and wrong people dig in and argue that everybody on Earth's lying because acknowledging reality would mean the White Sox maybe do one thing right, and that would destroy their narratives. 

You are trying to prove your point with a small sample size.  This is like when you touted that the Sox were playing so much better based on a small stretch of games, rather than looking at their entire body of work, and that we all should have praised the job Getz has done as a result.

Who is to say that Kopech would have continued on with the Sox being lights out for an extended period of time had he not been traded, just like he ultimately was with the Dodgers?  We don’t know that would have happened.  However, it actually did happen once he was traded to the Dodgers for a pretty good stretch (24 innings).

The overall point being made is that many players seem to improve once they leave the Sox, and there are multiple examples.  I don’t think this is some crazy conspiracy theory. 
 

Edited August 21 by WhiteSox2023

[T R U]

27 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

Nobody's saying the White Sox "fixed" him, because he didn't need "fixing". None of what I'm saying is conjecture. It is chiseled in stone, verifiable fact. 

On July 7th last year, Kopech started the bottom of the 9th against the Marlins in a game the White Sox led 4-3. Kopech faced Vidal Brujan and walked him on six 4-seamers. The next batter was Nick Fortes, who bunted the first pitch, a 4-seam fastball for a sacrifice. The next batter was Jazz Chisolm, who hit the first pitch, a 4-seam fastball for a flyout. Josh Bell came up next, saw six 4-seam fastballs, and hit a double. 

Do you see a pattern here?

Jesus Sanchez was the next batter, and Kopech started him off with a cutter for a strike. He then threw a 4-seamer outside, and another cutter in the dirt before they called an intentional walk. Jake Burger came up next, saw three 4-seam fastballs, and hit a three-run HR. 

Kopech said this after the game: “It’s coming down to what we talked about a lot lately in-house,” Kopech said. “I need to mix my pitches and not just rely on the fastball so much. It’s difficult to do that when I fall behind and my best pitch is my fastball. I have to get back in the count.”

In Kopech's next outing, the 10th inning against the Twins at home on the 8th, Kopech threw 10 pitches, and in no sequence did he throw more than two 4-seam fastballs in a row. See? He started mixing his pitches better. He had said in interviews that the coaches were telling him to mix his pitches. He said Korey Lee helped him be more comfortable with that. That is what happened. His next 4 outings, he mixed his pitches and everything went smoothly. 

He didn't gain any MPH on his fastball. No extra movement on his cutter or slider. He didn't rework his delivery to hide the ball longer, or whatnot. He stopped throwing the same pitch every single pitch. That is the change he made. He said it was. White Sox people said it was. Dodger people told him to just keep doing what he's been doing, which, now, was mixing his pitches better like the Sox had been harping on him to do, which is all documented and not made up. 

Oh, okay. He felt happier being at work. But it was the same damned pitch shapes and speeds he was throwing with the White Sox. No changes. 

The more you dig in, the more obvious it becomes that The White Sox are clearly not at fault where it comes to Kopech. We all agree he's a head case for the ages. He came out and said he wasn't listening to his coaches, and once he did, he started seeing better results. 

The only logical answer you have now is "Wow, WestEddy, you've been right all along, and I'm just digging in and arguing nonsense because if I give in, that will mean that there is now at least one, single thing the White Sox did right, and this entire BS narrative that gets pushed here is really nonsense."

 

Buddy we both want the same thing here, the White Sox to be good. I don't understand why you are on this crusade to scorn everyone who has issues with how terrible this organization has been run in recent memory. Your constant defense of everything everyone has a problem with is what is nonsense here. 

[WhiteSox2023]

3 minutes ago, T R U said:

Buddy we both want the same thing here, the White Sox to be good. I don't understand why you are on this crusade to scorn everyone who has issues with how terrible this organization has been run in recent memory. Your constant defense of everything everyone has a problem with is what is nonsense here. 

The proof is in the pudding, and the pudding is rotten…

https://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/CHW/index.shtml

[Tony]

17 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

No, the wrong people need to work on their wrong complex. I'm tired of quoting actual facts - things that actually happened, and that the people involved said actually happened, and wrong people dig in and argue that everybody on Earth's lying because acknowledging reality would mean the White Sox maybe do one thing right, and that would destroy their narratives. 

I mean, there is literally an internet meme created about you. 

[southsider2k5]

13 minutes ago, Tony said:

I mean, there is literally an internet meme created about you. 

Hey he worked hard when he picked one fact and ignored all of the rest of them.  He's obviously right.

[WestEddy]

11 minutes ago, T R U said:

Buddy we both want the same thing here, the White Sox to be good. I don't understand why you are on this crusade to scorn everyone who has issues with how terrible this organization has been run in recent memory. Your constant defense of everything everyone has a problem with is what is nonsense here. 

It's not a crusade. I've actually been trying to keep out of these. It's a single comment, where I'm not wrong. Yes, there are anecdotes where a player who was bad here flourished elsewhere. It would be cool if that would only happen to Eloy, Yoan, Tim Anderson, etc. 

But I'm gonna wait for Vaughn's full year, positive WAR season before I accept the Sox failed him. And Kopech shouldn't even be in that conversation for all he's been through, or more accurately, all of what we've been through. 

I made a pretty simple statement up front, which wasn't wrong. It doesn't take that much to acknowledge that before the peanut gallery kicks in with the BS. 

Go in peace. 

 

[WhiteSox2023]

6 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

It's not a crusade. I've actually been trying to keep out of these. It's a single comment, where I'm not wrong. Yes, there are anecdotes where a player who was bad here flourished elsewhere. It would be cool if that would only happen to Eloy, Yoan, Tim Anderson, etc. 

But I'm gonna wait for Vaughn's full year, positive WAR season before I accept the Sox failed him. And Kopech shouldn't even be in that conversation for all he's been through, or more accurately, all of what we've been through. 

I made a pretty simple statement up front, which wasn't wrong. It doesn't take that much to acknowledge that before the peanut gallery kicks in with the BS. 

Go in peace. 

 

Cue the Simpson’s meme again…

[WestEddy]

31 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said:

The overall point being made is that many players seem to improve once they leave the Sox, and there are multiple examples.  I don’t think this is some crazy conspiracy theory.

Well, if you start a list of Erick Fedde, Jake Burger, Kendall Graveman, Kenyan Middleton, Liam Hendriks, Nick Madrigal, Jose Abreu, Dane Dunning, James McCann and Jose Quintana, you could make an equally erroneous argument about how players seem to fall off a table, or at least never reach the heights they reach in a Sox uniform. 

It is a crazy conspiracy theory. And not even a good one. 

[WestEddy]

43 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said:

You are trying to prove your point with a small sample size.  This is like when you touted that the Sox were playing so much better based on a small stretch of games, rather than looking at their entire body of work, and that we all should have praised the job Getz has done as a result.

No, I'm trying to prove my point by showing what Sox management and Kopech himself had said with the context of what actually happened. I laid out a pretty clear example of Kopech throwing 14 4-seamers in a row. The quality of his pitches didn't change in 2024. He just stopped throwing one single pitch every damn time so that the batter always knew what was coming. And there's a very clear line where he did it one way, then changed, and had vastly different results. Then Kopech said he didn't make any radical changes in LA. 

And as far as you not getting over using May 1 as a divider for the quality of the Sox team as a whole, they made a series of changes, dropping some bad players, and bringing up their next core - that resulted in a different level of intensity. I'm not cherry picking 8 games and claiming they're a world series contender. I understand that looking at the season in sections doesn't feed your narrative of all bad, always bad, but if you only pay attention to the overall win-loss record, I wouldn't say you follow baseball with any depth. There's a s%*# ton to watch and follow. 

[WestEddy]

36 minutes ago, Tony said:

I mean, there is literally an internet meme created about you. 

It's not unlike y'all making fun of me for not admitting 1+1=3. Miguel Vargas' mechanical change did result in more production. Kopech did start mixing his pitch types, which resulted in better results. The half dozen people who regularly clown doesn't make these things untrue. 

[WestEddy]

15 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said:

Cue the Simpson’s meme again…

You are literally the peanut gallery kicking in with BS. I don't even understand you posting this comment. You're not proving me wrong about Kopech. You're not even proving me wrong about trying to stay out of these.