27 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

You're gaslighting everyone. It's wild.

This could very reasonably be the White Sox starting rotation today if they actually signed their stars and didn't trade them like you're claiming:

Chris Sale, Dylan Cease, Garrett Crochet, Carlos Rodon, Noah Schultz... (Schultz harder to guarantee given draft position may have been different, but assuming they were the main team in on him).

That's the best rotation in MLB. That may be a 100 million dollar rotation, but a reasonable team would still have 100 million for a roster.

They didn't trade Rodon, and Schultz is still on the team. Sale, Cease and Crochet were traded during rebuilds. My point stands.

One of these things is not like the others. But yeah, rebuilds, always rebuilds! No other reason at all…

Largest White Sox contract ever = 5 / $75 million

Rodon = 6 / $162 million

Sale = 5 / $145 million

Cease = 7 / $210 million

Crochet = 6 / $170 million

Edited Wednesday at 02:04 PM2 days by WhiteSox2023

Was able to secure great seats for Muni v. Ohtani

7 minutes ago, Tony said:

Wait, let me see if I got this straight.

You asked, word for word "who are all these players we've developed and then traded right away because we didn't want to pay them?"

As @Look at Ray Ray Run pointed out, the list is full of talented players that were traded in their prime because the Sox didn't want to pay them. If they traded them because they were in a rebuild...who's choice was that? Was the rebuild forced upon them? It was 100% the choice of the White Sox organization not to extend them. There is no "pass" given because the organization decided to do ANOTHER gut job.

But then, you turn around and say "It's beyond stupid to pretend that the Sox are going to build a competitive team, then start trading away the stars because "tee-hee, moar prospects"

Why is that beyond stupid? What history do you have that the Sox will keep good players around for a long term competitive window? By your logic, that means you assume the Sox will be keeping Murakami long term, outside of his two year contract? (with the assumption he continues to play at this level and is a 'star' level player under your definition)

The premise is that JR sets the agenda for this team, and the GM's follow. If that is the case, then we can look at players like Konerko, Dye, Pierzynski and Buehrle - they were all extended or resigned. Sale, Quintana and Eaton were all signed to contracts that bought out their arbitration years and a couple of free agency. Jose Abreu was extended. Tim Anderson, Yoan, Robert, Eloy - they were all signed to contracts that bought out their arbitration years and a couple free agent years.

During a rebuild, they cashed in their good players for prospects. There is no history of developing players, getting to a competitive window, then trading away players "because they don't want to pay them". This is a false narrative. If you want to have the argument of who's choice was it to rebuild, great. Start that discussion. But that's merely a deflection, here.

You pose the question: What history do you have that the Sox will keep good players around for a long term competitive window?

I give you the evidence that during their last, true, competitive window, they kept good players around for the duration of that window. To argue that they didn't denies the very fact that they did from 2005 through 2012. It looked like they were doing that in the runup to 2016, but that team fell apart, and they chose to rebuild again. And the team certainly looked like they were trying to assemble a core they would keep together for the 2020 window. Individual players all fell off the table, and most of that team became untradeable.

It's beyond stupid to pretend the only goal of this team is to develop prospects then trade them at the precipice of a competitive window because this team has never done that. I'm pretty sure that nobody is going to argue that in November of 2016, or November of 2023, this team was looking at a 5 year run of playoff success.

You are legit living in a different world than the rest of us.

Ill iterate it again. Chris Getz, the White Sox GM himself said the Sox are operating in the ilk of the Rays and Brewers where shuffling players and trading stars at peak value is an integral part of the model.

The Sox also have traded a literal hall of famer in the past 10 years for prospects... only in your mind does that not count because the team wasnt good.

6 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

You are legit living in a different world than the rest of us.

Ill iterate it again. Chris Getz, the White Sox GM himself said the Sox are operating in the ilk of the Rays and Brewers where shuffling players and trading stars at peak value is an integral part of the model.

The Sox also have traded a literal hall of famer in the past 10 years for prospects... only in your mind does that not count because the team wasnt good.

And look, make it about the prospects if you like, but the REAL cause is that Jerry will not dig in and pay players, forcing Chris, Rick, or whoever to trade players for "value" before they expire. There was no reason financially the Sox with a collapsing payroll couldn't have dug in on a long term deal for Garrett Crochet to bridge them into the next decent team. But instead we all know the Sox are cheap, and won't do it, so Stockholm shorthand our way to prospect returns instead of wasting time on the obvious part that they won't be resigned. I mean what is the best way to short circuit a rebuild? How about with a superstar frontline pitcher to start it.

Nah. Moar prospects.

19 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

You are legit living in a different world than the rest of us.

Ill iterate it again. Chris Getz, the White Sox GM himself said the Sox are operating in the ilk of the Rays and Brewers where shuffling players and trading stars at peak value is an integral part of the model.

The Sox also have traded a literal hall of famer in the past 10 years for prospects... only in your mind does that not count because the team wasnt good.

LOL. No, it doesn't count in the minds of people who understand the premise. Sale would have pitched on 3 bad teams, then would have missed their entire "window" with injuries. But I suppose you're just going to ignore the fact they kept the WS team together as long as possible and loaded up with players who they extended for a competitive run at the beginning of this decade.

I'll worry about the Sox trading stars at the beginning of a competitive window when it actually starts happening.

1 hour ago, WestEddy said:

They didn't trade Rodon, and Schultz is still on the team. Sale, Cease and Crochet were traded during rebuilds. My point stands.

So, after you carve out excuses for all the quality players the Sox traded away, your point stands? Come on.

1 hour ago, WestEddy said:

LOL. No, it doesn't count in the minds of people who understand the premise. Sale would have pitched on 3 bad teams, then would have missed their entire "window" with injuries. But I suppose you're just going to ignore the fact they kept the WS team together as long as possible and loaded up with players who they extended for a competitive run at the beginning of this decade.

I'll worry about the Sox trading stars at the beginning of a competitive window when it actually starts happening.

You have a really hard time comprehending that 20 years is a really long time, and the game has completely changed. The Sox still haven't given a player 80 million, let alone 100. They're the last team left.

Is that because theyre the only non competitive team at specific points over the past 20 years? Of course not, its because theyre the cheapest organization in baseball.

34 minutes ago, 77 Hitmen said:

So, after you carve out excuses for all the quality players the Sox traded away, your point stands? Come on.

The carve out for non-competitive teams is hysterical, because it tries to exclude the fact that that the lack of competition is very much due to their own doing.

-This is a franchise that hasn't gone outside of the organization to hire a chief executive who wasn't already getting a paycheck from the White Sox, maybe ever, but at least decades.

-They are a franchise who was among the last in mlb to make a minimal investment in Latin America

-They are a franchise with no presence in the far east.

- they have the smallest front office in baseball

-they were one of the last to make a serious investment in technology, but are seemingly still looking for intern level people to interpret and create data.

-they are the last team in baseball to spend on a nine figure contract.

-They may be the only team in baseball without a team President in the front office instead of the C suite.

I could keep going, but the point remains that the Sox spend so much time being non-competitive because they refuse to compete!

Imgflip

black guy pointing at head

19 minutes ago, 77 Hitmen said:

So, after you carve out excuses for all the quality players the Sox traded away, your point stands? Come on.

A narrative has taken hold of "I'm so pissed that I can imagine the White Sox trading Murakami next week, then trading Colson, and when we draft Roch, promote him, then trade him too!!!" This is nonsense. The Sox are building for a competitive window. It's silly to pretend that's not happening.

"But they never extend or keep their players because JR is so cheap!!!"

I've given examples of windows where they've extended key players or resigned them to keep a winning team together.

"But the White Sox once made a trade, so you're wrong!!"

The stars that the Sox have traded came at a time where they were looking into the void of a rebuild. Because the Sox had no international presence, sucked at drafting and could only develop the most advanced talent, they had periods of amassing 5-9 prospects, then riding a wave of talent for a few years. They thought they could do this around 2015, and again around 2020. They didn't maintain a minor league system that could supplement those teams when injury and premature aging gutted the big league club.

Watching this team, we all understand what the front office had attempted at different times. It's insincere to pretend that JR is rubbing his hands together, waiting for the next prospect to break out so he can trade him and save money. Nobody's accusing JR of playing 3 dimensional chess with the moves his front office has made over the last 3 decades. They've been very short-sighted. But it's insulting to make up comic book villain reasons, and demand that everybody buy into that.

I do understand that Getz has referred to the models employed by Tampa and Milwaukee. Again, I'll worry about the Sox trading Colson and Roch Cholowsky when they do it.

10 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

The carve out for non-competitive teams is hysterical, because it tries to exclude the fact that that the lack of competition is very much due to their own doing.

-This is a franchise that hasn't gone outside of the organization to hire a chief executive who wasn't already getting a paycheck from the White Sox, maybe ever, but at least decades.

-They are a franchise who was among the last in mlb to make a minimal investment in Latin America

-They are a franchise with no presence in the far east.

- they have the smallest front office in baseball

-they were one of the last to make a serious investment in technology, but are seemingly still looking for intern level people to interpret and create data.

-they are the last team in baseball to spend on a nine figure contract.

-They may be the only team in baseball without a team President in the front office instead of the C suite.

I could keep going, but the point remains that the Sox spend so much time being non-competitive because they refuse to compete!

If somebody is tired of rooting for a player and then seeing them traded because the team failed to build around them, that's quite a different thing than, "JR will never pay a player because he's cheap".

I guess what's hilarious about changing the argument to "who made the team non-competitive?" is that it's a pure deflection and runs away from the point being made. Nobody is arguing that the Sox didn't participate in their own multiple demises. If you want to make the argument that JR/KW/Hahn very deliberately declined to invest in prospect development with the goal of extending the few players who emerged from the minors, not adding to them, then trading them to not have to pay them, I challenge you to make that argument.

But you don't. You just throw up that non-sequitur to derail a comment.

3 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

If somebody is tired of rooting for a player and then seeing them traded because the team failed to build around them, that's quite a different thing than, "JR will never pay a player because he's cheap".

I guess what's hilarious about changing the argument to "who made the team non-competitive?" is that it's a pure deflection and runs away from the point being made. Nobody is arguing that the Sox didn't participate in their own multiple demises. If you want to make the argument that JR/KW/Hahn very deliberately declined to invest in prospect development with the goal of extending the few players who emerged from the minors, not adding to them, then trading them to not have to pay them, I challenge you to make that argument.

But you don't. You just throw up that non-sequitur to derail a comment.

You didn't answer the question I asked to you. If Murakami continues on his current pace, and the Sox as a unit are showing signs of improvement, given his two year contract, do you expect the White Sox to try and resign him to a longer extension? Or are they trading a 27 year old power hitting LH bat to another team because they don't have any interest in giving him over $100 million dollars? What do you believe is the most likely outcome?

14 hours ago, ron883 said:

@Look at Ray Ray Run if somebody offers the Sox a minor league haul for Mune you're really going to be disappointed if they make the trade?

Yes I would be. But I doubt anyone would offer a real haul anyway.

Plus, the Sox will likely get a supplemental pick if they keep him. I'm not sure how that works if they trade him; but if they would lose it, some team would have to pay the Sox the value of both Murakami and a supplemental pick. Even more doubtful.

Good home-grown players nearing free agency is an excuse to always stay in rebuild mode.

Rebuild mode is a good excuse to never sign top free agents, including to a contract above $75 million dollars.

Both strategies works hand-in-hand and you would have to be wearing blinders not to see it. Jerry doesn’t deserve our faith or lack of cynicism.

2 minutes ago, Tony said:

You didn't answer the question I asked to you. If Murakami continues on his current pace, and the Sox as a unit are showing signs of improvement, given his two year contract, do you expect the White Sox to try and resign him to a longer extension? Or are they trading a 27 year old power hitting LH bat to another team because they don't have any interest in giving him over $100 million dollars? What do you believe is the most likely outcome?

Okay, well, I answered about three of your questions from that post, but you only consider one of them as "the" question.

I expect the Sox to make a good faith effort at extending Murakami.

They're one game away from clocking in with their first .500 month in years, so I would expect them to be sporadically competitive this season, considering their division, and more competitive next season.

I don't know what Murakami's goals are, either setting salary records, or being in a comfortable environment. If he cranks 50 HRs and wants to stay, I've seen no statements from the White Sox saying they absolutely will not sign a contract over $100M.

I believe the likely outcome is the Sox will be competitive next year, they'll keep Murakami all season, and he will get an insane offer the Sox won't match.

7 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

Okay, well, I answered about three of your questions from that post, but you only consider one of them as "the" question.

I expect the Sox to make a good faith effort at extending Murakami.

They're one game away from clocking in with their first .500 month in years, so I would expect them to be sporadically competitive this season, considering their division, and more competitive next season.

I don't know what Murakami's goals are, either setting salary records, or being in a comfortable environment. If he cranks 50 HRs and wants to stay, I've seen no statements from the White Sox saying they absolutely will not sign a contract over $100M.

I believe the likely outcome is the Sox will be competitive next year, they'll keep Murakami all season, and he will get an insane offer the Sox won't match.

So the worst outcome possible. It does sound very White Sox, so can't really argue there.

34 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

If somebody is tired of rooting for a player and then seeing them traded because the team failed to build around them, that's quite a different thing than, "JR will never pay a player because he's cheap".

I guess what's hilarious about changing the argument to "who made the team non-competitive?" is that it's a pure deflection and runs away from the point being made. Nobody is arguing that the Sox didn't participate in their own multiple demises. If you want to make the argument that JR/KW/Hahn very deliberately declined to invest in prospect development with the goal of extending the few players who emerged from the minors, not adding to them, then trading them to not have to pay them, I challenge you to make that argument.

But you don't. You just throw up that non-sequitur to derail a comment.

So you deflecting to BUT THEY WERE NOT COMPETITIVE wasn't a deflection, but WHY they were ACTUALLY non-competitive doesn't matter. Sure Baghdad Eddy.

4 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

So you deflecting to BUT THEY WERE NOT COMPETITIVE wasn't a deflection, but WHY they were ACTUALLY non-competitive doesn't matter. Sure Baghdad Eddy.

Okay, then you're saying no team should ever trade a player. If they do, they're money-grubbing skinflints. Got it.

Just now, WestEddy said:

Okay, then you're saying no team should ever trade a player. If they do, they're money-grubbing skinflints. Got it.

Deflection

They do what habitual losing teams do. Not much can really be debated.

Ishbia might look and see this needs to be tore down completely. Definitely need a new GM and replace scouts. I hope he's doing his homework.

21 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Deflection

"Deflection"

54 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

Okay, well, I answered about three of your questions from that post, but you only consider one of them as "the" question.

I expect the Sox to make a good faith effort at extending Murakami.

They're one game away from clocking in with their first .500 month in years, so I would expect them to be sporadically competitive this season, considering their division, and more competitive next season.

I don't know what Murakami's goals are, either setting salary records, or being in a comfortable environment. If he cranks 50 HRs and wants to stay, I've seen no statements from the White Sox saying they absolutely will not sign a contract over $100M.

I believe the likely outcome is the Sox will be competitive next year, they'll keep Murakami all season, and he will get an insane offer the Sox won't match.

That's assuming they play next season. That remains to be seen how it plays out.