JUAN PIERRE

[rangercal]

Your 2006, Fourth place finishing, Chicago WHITE SOX!

That is way off.

[witesoxfan]

This isn't what we should be arguing over.

 

It should be whether the Sox will score more runs by upgrading their #2 position, where they posted a .276/.335/.422 line, or the #3 spot, where they managed just a .234/.296/.419. Only the Bay Area teams had less production from the #3 spot.

 

There are much more pressing needs than "who should bat 2nd?" Kenny knows this. He ain't wasting his time appeasing Ozzie behind the scenes. He's going to do what's best for the club, and that's finding a LHed bat that can get on base and put the ball out of the yard.

 

Is it not possible to upgrade the #3 spot in the lineup by acquring a #2 hitter, moving the #2 hitter from last year either into the #3 hole, or moving him further down into the lineup, perhaps say 5-6-7 or somewhere in that whereabouts in the order, and moving someone up in the lineup?

 

Jermaine Dye played in 6 times as many games in the playoffs hitting in the #3 slot than he did the entire regular season, and while it was a very small timeframe to make judgements, he did hit .311 1 6 .415/.444/.860 during that time frame.

 

I'd assume KW's first priority(perhaps other than Konerko, and perhaps not) would be a LH bat - either Delgado or Thome - and than it would shift to Pierre. However, depending upon his certainty of being able to acquire Thome or Delgado, I could easily see him trading for Pierre first, or not trading for Pierre at all.

[AngelasDaddy0427]

Juan Peirre is a joke... We don't need a Pods clone... We sure as hell don't need his crappy defense in CF...

 

Their are only two responsible options for next season...

 

Rowand in CF...

 

or

 

Anderson in CF with Rowand traded for a big bat like Delgado (no other trade scenario is worth it)

 

I just pray the Cubs get Juan Pierre to we can watch him lead them to another 4th place finish... I mean all those dropped balls and all... If we want a speedy CF with bad instincts and a noodle arm we might as well stick Willie Harris out there...

[Guest JimH]

Juan Peirre is a joke... We don't need a Pods clone... We sure as hell don't need his crappy defense in CF...

 

Their are only two responsible options for next season...

 

Rowand in CF...

 

or

 

Anderson in CF with Rowand traded for a big bat like Delgado (no other trade scenario is worth it)

 

I just pray the Cubs get Juan Pierre to we can watch him lead them to another 4th place finish... I mean all those dropped balls and all... If we want a speedy CF with bad instincts and a noodle arm we might as well stick Willie Harris out there...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well, your opinion is shared by many and I too have concerns about Pierre's arm.

 

I do think something is in the works though. When Guillen says he wants more speed at the top of the lineup and a #2 hitter so he can move Iguchi down ... to me that points to Juan Pierre - especially since Guillen knows him really well.

 

I guess I'm looking more and more at the realities here vs. what I want as a fan. Guillen and Williams have earned our trust, I think that's only fair. They know what they're doing.

 

Tons of pitching, lots of speed, good defense, and a pesky offense that other teams don't like to face ... it's a winning formula.

[Guest JimH]

Here is what I think will happen:

 

Totally a guess on my part ...

 

They bring in Juan Pierre in exchange for relief pitching, with Marte being the centerpiece. KW fills Marte's spot with some under the radar lefty that everyone on this board will b**** about.

 

Rowand is moved for a lefthanded hitter with pop who can play 1B if necessary, fill in the blanks, it's not that tough to do.

 

If Konerko re-signs with the White Sox, great, otherwise they will bring in another 1B to split time with the lefthanded hitting acquisition. And it will be someone who can also back up Crede, fill in the blanks here too, also not that tough.

 

At the end of the day, you have a #3 or #4 hitter who hits from the left side, a backup plan in case Crede's back is a problem, more speed at the top as your #2 hitter, and your pitching staff stays largely intact. You lose a little in OF defense but you give your top prospect a chance to learn at the big league level (Anderson) and let him play a lot as the #4 OF.

 

Again, I am only stating what I think will happen ... not debating the merits of the above.

[RockRaines]

I do think something is in the works though.  When Guillen says he wants more speed at the top of the lineup and a #2 hitter so he can move Iguchi down ... to me that points to Juan Pierre - especially since Guillen knows him really well.

 

I guess I'm looking more and more at the realities here vs. what I want as a fan. 

K, so what part of our winning formula says trade some starters for an overpriced clone of a lead off hitter you already have? Just because he has speed doesnt mean he is a fit. If you would really like a slap hitting speedy OF'er with questionable defense next year, why not move up the cheapest option in the form of Jerry Owens. Cheap, affordable, can be moved down, doesnt sacrafice any of our peices. Trading for Pierre is a moronic and unrealistic move for KW. It just wont happen. There is no place for him on this team, and frankly it may hinder the offensive production more than help it. Not to mention overpaying him a bit is not the whitesox way.

[jphat007]

Your 2006, Fourth place finishing, Chicago WHITE SOX!

 

It wouldn't be in that order, but thats a fairly similar lineup to last year.

 

I don't personally like it very much, and I wouldn't touch that deal, but it looks pretty much like last years lineup.

[Guest JimH]

K, so what part of our winning formula says trade some starters for an overpriced clone of a lead off hitter you already have?  Just because he has speed doesnt mean he is a fit.  If you would really like a slap hitting speedy OF'er with questionable defense next year, why not move up the cheapest option in the form of Jerry Owens.  Cheap, affordable, can be moved down, doesnt sacrafice any of our peices.  Trading for Pierre is a moronic and unrealistic move for KW.  It just wont happen. There is no place for him on this team, and frankly it may hinder the offensive production more than help it.  Not to mention overpaying him a bit is not the whitesox way.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Just because you don't like it or agree with it doesn't mean it won't happen. Again, I am taking emotion out of it and listening to what the manager has said, and we both know he has lots of say so in terms of how the team is made up.

[fathom]

Just because you don't like it or agree with it doesn't mean it won't happen.  Again, I am taking emotion out of it and listening to what the manager has said, and we both know he has lots of say so in terms of how the team is made up.

 

As you said, trading for Pierre is a lot more realistic than some of the ideas I see posted on here. I'm not a fan of Pierre, but I think he could be a better number 2 hitter than Iguchi. Iguchi K'd quite often last year cause he would get 2 strikes on him letting Pods get a read/steal. With Pierre, you would have someone who could handle the bat better with 2 strikes. Also, Pierre is available, and he's someone that Ozzie is very familiar with.

 

I know it's ironic for me to say this, but people don't need to freak out about every single trade rumor or even possible transaction. The coaching staff/KW has earned our trust, and unless they trade Mark Buehrle for Carl Everett again in a few months, we should just enjoy whatever product they put on the field.

[RockRaines]

Just because you don't like it or agree with it doesn't mean it won't happen.  Again, I am taking emotion out of it and listening to what the manager has said, and we both know he has lots of say so in terms of how the team is made up.

Yes, he said more speed. Never did he say trade starters to take on an overpaid clone of our lead off man. Also, taking emotion out of it, when has KW picked up a sought after FA? How about one that makes 4 million dollars and is basically an overpaid version of a player you already have? Also, is KW usually interested in pplayers who will become FA's soon?

 

Yes he said more speed, but there are alot other "fast" players out there, the only reason you are thinking of Pierre is because the cubune and this message board topic. If you really think about it, it doesnt make sense for this team. I personally think Gooch is a more effective #2 hitter than JP would be anyway. PLUS we have a JP in the making absolutley TEARING up AA and the fall league as we speak, and for much cheaper, and much less risk. The odds of bringing up Owens are greater than that of trading for Pierre, and that Jim, is the bottom line here.

[RockRaines]

Jim,

 

Heres my post with emotion attached to it.

 

Juan Pierre can take his .326 OBP and his .354 SLG and go to a team that will overpay for his ass. We dont need him, there is no fit, and we would be a worse team offensively and defensively with him on our roster.

[Guest JimH]

Yes, he said more speed.  Never did he say trade starters to take on an overpaid clone of our lead off man.  Also, taking emotion out of it, when has KW picked up a sought after FA?  How about one that makes 4 million dollars and is basically an overpaid version of a player you already have?  Also, is KW usually interested in pplayers who will become FA's soon?

 

Yes he said more speed, but there are alot other "fast" players out there, the only reason you are thinking of Pierre is because the cubune and this message board topic.  If you really think about it, it doesnt make sense for this team.  I personally think Gooch is a more effective #2 hitter than JP would be anyway.  PLUS we have a JP in the making absolutley TEARING up AA and the fall league as we speak, and for much cheaper, and much less risk.  The odds of bringing up Owens are greater than that of trading for Pierre, and that Jim, is the bottom line here.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

First off Pierre is not going to be a FA this year, he's arb eligible, but you did say "soon" and I suppose that encompasses a year. Given that definition ... yes ... Bartolo Colon, David Wells, Carl Everett, Geoff Blum ... it's a long list of guys KW has gone after like that.

 

The more I think about it, the more it DOES make sense for this team. They want to upgrade the same offense almost everybody on this board was whining about. It has nothing to do with reading this board or the Tribune. Guillen knows this guy well, he is a quality hitter and where is it said a starting position player absolutely positively would be traded for him? Nowhere.

 

Florida needs bullpen help, that's where the trade would fit.

 

Again, because any of us personally thinks Iguchi would make a better #2 hitter doesn't matter in the slightest. Guillen said he wants to slide him down, and I am basing my posts on what the manager says and attaching validity to it ... simply because it's been proven he has a huge say so on the team's makeup.

 

I agree on Owens, I think he's coming on fast. Guillen liked what he saw in his winter league stint but also didn't want him called up when Pods was hurt. Guillen said he's too raw (as of August). That viewpoint may have changed but one more year of experience wouldn't hurt Owens. They want him to work on his batting eye and base stealing technique for starters.

 

Again, I am just saying what I think will happen, and why I think it will happen, based on what's coming out from management.

[JUGGERNAUT]

As we learned last year it's Ozzie's team & what Ozzie wants Kenny will try to make happen. Now that Ozzie is king of the MLB world I can't imagine Kenny opposing him.

 

Maybe Ozzie is still living in 2003 when it comes to Pierre but let's be honest about this. Both players (Pierre, Rowand) underperformed in 2005. Rowand however signed a contract based on his stellar 2004 play.

 

It's hard to imagine the pressure opposing teams will have with Pods + Pierre. Ozzie will not hesitate to take the bat out of Pierre's hands to get Pods into RISP. In the end this will reduce Pierre's FA value. It doesn't matter if Iguchi puts up all-star #'s in #6 hole because the SOX have 3 more yrs on his contract (incl option yr).

 

The Sox do NOT have to trade Rowand to get Pierre. But here's the thing: right now Rowand's trade value might even be higher than in 2005 because the NYY's have him in their sights. Which means they are willing to pay a high cost with a 3rd team to pry him away from the White Sox. What that means is that Rowand might bring Pierre & more to the White Sox.

 

If we keep Rowand & go with a Pods+Rowand+Pierre OF we might just have the best defensive OF in the game. Great speed on the corners & alley ways & great instincts in the middle. Arm strength doesn't mean that much at the Cell. It's a hitter's ball park with nearly symetrical dimensions. Easy to get a feel for.

 

If we keep Rowand I think it means goodbye to Paulie & hello to Thome. Coming off the injury he had Thome is a big question mark at 1B. Philly knows this. That means they have to be willing to eat a hefty portion of the contract to get the most for him. He's worth much more to AL teams right now.

 

So if Ozzie gets his way it might look like this:

Pods, Pierre, Dye, Thome, Rowand, Iguchi, Crede, AJ, Uribe

 

That lineup looks lethal. Power, speed, & balance spread throughout.

Edited November 21, 2005 by JUGGERNAUT

[RockRaines]

Juggs, arm strength means ALOT no matter what ballpark you are in. Do NOT make me bring up the OF assits numbers again from last year. Not only that, but Dye keeping the runner from advancing to 3rd has saved us many runs in the process. That OF would be the least productive offensively and the weakest throwing in the business, no thanks.

[JUGGERNAUT]

Juggs, arm strength means ALOT no matter what ballpark you are in.  Do NOT make me bring up the OF assits numbers again from last year.  Not only that, but Dye keeping the runner from advancing to 3rd has saved us many runs in the process.  That OF would be the least productive offensively and the weakest throwing in the business, no thanks.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I disagree. There's not much room to cover on the corners & the alley ways are very symetrical. Symetry is a best friend to speed. It makes adjustment a LOT easier. You might disagree but I felt as the season drew on Pods got more accustomed to LF at the Cell & started to play some stellar defense.

 

As much blame as the White Sox get for the Cell they should get equal praise for creating one of the best diamonds in the majors to play in.

[witesoxfan]

Juan Peirre is a joke... We don't need a Pods clone... We sure as hell don't need his crappy defense in CF...

 

Their are only two responsible options for next season...

 

Rowand in CF...

 

or

 

Anderson in CF with Rowand traded for a big bat like Delgado (no other trade scenario is worth it)

 

I just pray the Cubs get Juan Pierre to we can watch him lead them to another 4th place finish... I mean all those dropped balls and all... If we want a speedy CF with bad instincts and a noodle arm we might as well stick Willie Harris out there...

 

Do you not recall how much pressue Podsednik puts on the pitcher with his prescence alone on 1B? Imagine that doubled with Pierre and Podsednik.

 

I also don't know where everyone gets this crappy defense from...his speed alone gives him very good range in CF, and a strong arm is not a necessity in CF. Besides, the Sox really didn't have any good arms in the OF last year. Dye had a strong arm, but inaccuracy is a killer. Sammy Sosa has a strong arm in the OF too, but he could never use it effectively due to always missing the cutoff man.

 

I also think it was pretty obvious to see that Pierre had a down year last year, and that it's also pretty obvious to see he's a guy that can bounce back from a down year.

 

2001 - .327 .378/.415/.793

2002 - .287 .332/.343/.675

2003 - .305 .361/.373/.734

2004 - .326 .374/.407/.781

2005 - .276 .326/.354/.680

 

Look at his 2001 and 2004 seasons, and than his 2002 and 2005 seasons. I notice a very easy to recognize trend.

 

I think if you bring him in, you are almost guaranteed a .350-.360 OBP in the first year, and then a .370-.380 OBP the next year.

 

No way do Florida's demands for Pierre remain as high as they are for a guy that they have basically come out and said they have to move.

 

I also am praying that the Cubs get Pierre too, because it likely means they had to give up atleast Pie in the deal, and then perhaps more as well...who knows. KW is not dumb, and he will not give up any more than he feels he should. Hendry on the other hand seems to look a little more desperate at this point. He knows he has a pretty good thing in the OF right now, but if he can upgrade by acquiring Pierre, and than because of that ship Rowand off in a package for a big hitter, he will.

[Rowand44]

Juggs, arm strength means ALOT no matter what ballpark you are in.  Do NOT make me bring up the OF assits numbers again from last year.  Not only that, but Dye keeping the runner from advancing to 3rd has saved us many runs in the process.  That OF would be the least productive offensively and the weakest throwing in the business, no thanks.

For the record Pierre had 7 assists last year and Aaron had 3.

[Felix]

I also don't know where everyone gets this crappy defense from...his speed alone gives him very good range in CF, and a strong arm is not a necessity in CF.  Besides, the Sox really didn't have any good arms in the OF last year.  Dye had a strong arm, but inaccuracy is a killer.  Sammy Sosa has a strong arm in the OF too, but he could never use it effectively due to always missing the cutoff man. 

Your realize that speed means nothing if you can't get good jumps, right?

[3E8]

For the record Pierre had 7 assists last year and Aaron had 3.

I'm sorry but this really means nothing unless we know how many chances each of them had to record an outfield assist.

[Rowand44]

I'm sorry but this really means nothing unless we know how many chances each of them had to record an outfield assist.

I really dont think assists mean all that much but rock seems to like that stat so I threw it out there.

[Rowand44]

Your realize that speed means nothing if you can't get good jumps, right?

Can I ask you how many times you've watched Juan play cf? Do you know for a fact he doesnt get good jumps?

[RockRaines]

For the record Pierre had 7 assists last year and Aaron had 3.

Yes, that is correct. Of course we are talking about when Juggs said JP in right field, which would mean you would compare JP's arm and assists with that of Jermaine Dye. Your comparison was good and all, just didnt fit the argument, thanks.

[RockRaines]

I disagree.  There's not much room to cover on the corners & the alley ways are very symetrical.  Symetry is a best friend to speed.  It makes adjustment a LOT easier.  You might disagree but I felt as the season drew on Pods got more accustomed to LF at the Cell & started to play some stellar defense. 

 

As much blame as the White Sox get for the Cell they should get equal praise for creating one of the best diamonds in the majors to play in.

What does room to cover have to do with arm strength? So he makes a good catch or pickup in the RF corner because the symmetry is good. Then what? Do you really think his arm will keep a runner from tagging and advancing to 3rd base? What if there were no outs? Would that cost us a run, a victory? That OF of JP a-row and PODS makes me want to trade in my tickets for next year, that is the lightest hitting OF in the game. If this is the case, our offense is SEVERELY doomed next year. In case you werent aware, this team is dependent on power and HR's.

[witesoxfan]

Your realize that speed means nothing if you can't get good jumps, right?

 

You realize good jumps mean nothing if you got s*** for speed, right?

 

There are always exceptions to the rule...like how Corey Patterson can make some disgusting plays in CF with his speed alone, and how Edmonds is constantly a gold glover.

 

Speeds a hell of a good thing to have in CF...and Juan Pierre is one of the fastest players in the game period. Good jumps are too, which is something Rowand does do well.

 

I haven't seen much of Pierre...but from what I remember, the guy doesn't flat out get burned like I have seen Milton Bradley do on many an occasion.

[Rowand44]

Yes, that is correct.  Of course we are talking about when Juggs said JP in right field, which would mean you would compare JP's arm and assists with that of Jermaine Dye.  Your comparison was good and all, just didnt fit the argument, thanks.

My fault, I didnt think anyone would argue Juan in rf. I apologize.