Garcia to Philly for Gavin Floyd and Gio Gonzalez

[southsideirish71]

And I think White Sox fans know Garcia better than they do. Sure, he steps up and pitches in big games...but the Phillies have to get to a big game first. Sure he learned how to pitch without his best stuff...but who's to say that his best stuff comes back? Or that the new pitch he learned is going to work in the National League.

 

Gavin Floyd isn't great, but he's ONLY 24. Shoot, I didn't know anything at 24 and remember the old adage about a change of scenery. It's not like Phillies fans are easy to please...just ask Santa.

 

 

I wonder how much they are going to love Freddy when they play a bad team at home and he gives up 7 runs in 5 innings and they steal like 6 bases off of him. A nice touch would be if Rowand were to misplay a ball, and then we could have Freddy throwing up his arms in disgust showing him up.

[jackie hayes]

Anyone know what Phillies fans think of this deal?

 

They were initially not happy about it, but now seem to be ok with it, especially considering that KW wanted Hirsh in exchange for Garland.

 

That's about right. (I dunno about the Hirsh part, didn't read that much.) They definitely weren't ecstatic, though. Both sides having misgivings, why, you'd almost think the deal was about even...

[southsideirish71]

That's about right. (I dunno about the Hirsh part, didn't read that much.) They definitely weren't ecstatic, though. Both sides having misgivings, why, you'd almost think the deal was about even...

 

One of my favorite posts on that thread.

 

 

Going through the video of Garcia- it is curious- why did a monster of a man who once through 95 mph easily, suddenly drop to 86 mph, i guess sometime in that season that the Mariners traded him? At first you'd think injury- but he's thrown 440 innings in that time, surely would have broke down by then. alot of the video also seems to have his slider just a few mph off his fastball- which if he had a bum elbow, he's wouldn't be throwing sliders and splits that well. All just a conversion to get more movement and control? (though surely he lost something regardless). Well, the addition of that split seemed to do wonders for him. If pedro can pitch at that speed with success (or at least he was), It will be interesting to see Garcia first hand.

[SoxHawk1980]

That's about right. (I dunno about the Hirsh part, didn't read that much.) They definitely weren't ecstatic, though. Both sides having misgivings, why, you'd almost think the deal was about even...

I doubt there are more than 12 people in the world who are not Sox fans who think this deal was about even. Check out the comments on rotoworld, Baseball Prospectus and just about anywhere else on this trade. Everyone is shocked that the Sox gave up so little for Garcia.

Edited December 7, 2006 by SoxHawk1980

[daa84]

this is from SABR guy Gary Gillette...

 

 

Adam (Chicago, IL): Do you see Kenny Williams trading another starter? What do you think he would be asking for in return?

 

SportsNation Gary Gillette: (2:13 PM ET ) Yes. I think the White Sox went into the Meetings wanting to trade two of their underperforming/overpriced starters. Dealing Garcia was a good move. A lot of people now think Garland will be the next, though I was figuring it might be Vazquez until this morning.

[Balta1701]

I doubt there are more than 12 people in the world who are not Sox fans who think this deal was about even. Check out the comments on rotoworld, Baseball Prospectus and just about anywhere else on this trade. Everyone is shocked that the Sox gave up so little for Garcia.

Washington, DC: Is there any way that the Nats can get anone decent for Vidro?

 

Gary Gillette: (2:03 PM ET ) Sure. If the ChiSox could move the erratic and declining Freddy Garcia and his big salary, there would be interest in Vidro if the Nats want to move him.

 

this is from SABR guy Gary Gillette...

Nice to know we're in the same chat. Want to try to get the same question posted?

[daa84]

Matt (Philly): Okay, you ripped Garcia, but he had a far better WHIP than Zito, 1.28 to 1.40...why ripping Garcia??

 

SportsNation Gary Gillette: (2:15 PM ET ) Well, Matt, I wasn't comparing him to Zito and I wasn't commenting on Zito. Garcia is worrisome because his stuff has declined so much and he is so vulnerable to the long ball.

[southsider2k5]

First of all, in the realm of "calling people names," calling someone a homer is pretty light. Seconf of all, the "thrust of my argument" isn't name calling. The thrust of my argument is reasons I have listed (in detail) of why the trade was bad. I call people homers when they deserve it. When I see people working very hard to convince themselves that a bad deal his team made is actually good one, that is homer thinking overcoming honest, intelligent thinking. It happens.

 

 

I'm working hard on becoming a blind homer who loves every move Kenny makes. I don't think I'm there yet.

 

Common sense. I love how everyone hated the trade when it was announced, and then 12 hours later, many have convinced themselves that it was a good deal, or at least the best possible deal KW could have gotten.

 

I could list the various rumors, but I won't. Suffice to say that numerous reports and just plain common sense when viewing that worse pitchers were garnering much more money tells you that Garcia was very valuable.

 

You are drunk on the kook-aid. You worked really hard to spin this horrible trade into something positive. We're worse than before the trade. And these prospects are certainly not sure things for the future.

 

The trade made us better this year? Please stop drinking the kool-aid. It has gone to your head.

 

You actually think this was a good trade???

 

I love it when a major league GM works hard to make the AAA team better.

 

No, I believe what Kenny Williams says. I'm looking at Kenny's direct and indirect quotes in that article. Rogers is an idiot, but he's not a liar.

 

That has to be the most stupid idea I've ever heard and we're seeing it play out right before our very eyes.

 

Good lord. This is a give up. This is taking a playoff quality team, dumping it and rebuilding. This is a disgrace.

 

Few deserve to get into the HOF as a broadcaster less than Hawk. Do you guys just want him in the HOF because he's a Sox broadcaster? Does that mean you want all Sox players throughout history to be in the HOF too? Hawk is a bad broadcaster, period. Nothing like turning an institution with a proud tradition into a joke.

 

I strongly suspect that his anomalous 2004 season was fueled by andro, creatin and/or HGH, or worse.

 

Sorry I only made it through a two pages worth of posts, but I can totally see why you don't think you depend on insults or namecalling to make your points. Those are totally intelligent thinking. Have fun, I am done with this stuff.

[Colorado Sox Fan]

And when Freddy Garcia is on another team in 08 and they didnt make the playoffs. Are they just as overjoyed.

 

They gave up nothing to get a proven starter. I'm sure they're thrilled.

[SoxHawk1980]

Sorry I only made it through a two pages worth of posts, but I can totally see why you don't think you depend on insults or namecalling to make your points. Those are totally intelligent thinking. Have fun, I am done with this stuff.

Thank you. I accept your apology.

[YASNY]

I guess it's official now.

 

White Sox acquired LHP Gio Gonzalez from the Phillies to complete the Freddy Garcia trade.

 

Gonzalez, a supplemental first-round pick of the White Sox in 2004, is being reacquired after going to Philadelphia in the Jim Thome deal. The 21-year-old went 7-12 with 4.66 ERA, 140 H, 166/81 K/BB in 154 2/3 IP for Reading as one of the youngest pitchers in Double-A last season. He could be a future No. 3 starter with improved command. Expect him to compete for a rotation spot in 2008.

[jackie hayes]

I doubt there are more than 12 people in the world who are not Sox fans who think this deal was about even. Check out the comments on rotoworld, Baseball Prospectus and just about anywhere else on this trade. Everyone is shocked that the Sox gave up so little for Garcia.

Ah, melodrama. As natural as... Well, you know the rest.

 

But all this isn't even what you're pissed about. Anyone who thinks Figgins alone would have been a better target can't be complaining about the return. You're ticked that we didn't get any pieces for 2007. We'll see what happens, but that's probably true. Hell, you'd be ticked if we had swung Garcia for Danks and Hurley, since neither will contribute in the bigs in 2007. Fine. I have misgivings about this deal, and I'm surprised we couldn't get a little more, but 1) I want a team that aims to be competitive EVERY year, so I like acquiring young pitching, and 2) we certainly didn't get nothing of value back. Gio is no Danks, Pelfrey, Bailey, Hughes, or Hirsh, but he's a very good prospect, and was very young for AA. Everyone agrees that Floyd still has his stuff, and he's still fairly young (24), so he definitely has time to develop the command. Basically, if I was expecting to get a 1 back in trade, I think we got 3/4 or so. Maybe, instead of being a blind homer, I'm just coming to the thought that I overvalued FG (and I think I was on the low end of the expectations spectrum before). Maybe everyone else is readjusting their expectations for trades, as well. And maybe, just maybe, you should get off your high horse and stop telling people how you're the only one who can think clearly around here.

[RockRaines]

It is silly to say that I blindly criticize the Sox when I give thoughtful, meaningful, and well supported criticism whenever I do criticize.

 

 

 

 

wait, wait, but roto said, but roto said........

 

 

Funny how "certain" people say that all experts hate this trade, yet do not trust any experts POV on the players we received. I Looooove selective reading.

[Vance Law]

They gave up nothing to get a proven starter. I'm sure they're thrilled.

 

They gave up prospects to rent a proven starter for 1 year who's coming off a bad year.

 

 

This would be a bad deal for Sox if we only had 3 starters, but since we had the 6, we're in fine shape. Freddie and his E.R.Yikes of 4 and half would have been lucky to win 11 games if not for the Sox offense last year.

[SoxHawk1980]

Funny how "certain" people say that all experts hate this trade, yet do not trust any experts POV on the players we received. I Looooove selective reading.

Did I say anything about not trusting any experts POV on the players we received? They are both decent prospects with upside potential. My problem with the trade is NOT that I think they'll never be good. They might. But no one should expect anything good from them at the major league level in 2007. Floyd has great stuff and Gio has some real upside potential. But with prospects, it is all about potential and not infrequently the potential of prospects is never realized. I have real concern (and frankly everyone does) about the fact that Floyd has never performed well at the majors or at AAA. His career AAA era is 5.24. So far, he's not even a good AAA pitcher.

 

So I respect his stuff and respect the potential of both of these prospects. I think KW could and definitely should have done better than to get two prospects who are clearly not ready for major league duty.

[RME JICO]

Here is an interesting tidbit about Floyd from CNNSI:

 

Gavin Floyd, the other pitcher acquired for Garcia, was highly regarded before posting a 7.29 ERA last year. But White Sox people hired former Phillies exec Ruben Amaro Sr. not too long ago, and they think they have a chance to get Floyd back on track.

 

The Sox hire a former Phillies exec then execute a trade with the same team. Just speculation, but maybe Amaro gave KW some valuable information about Floyd that would make him believe he had more value than others were stating.

[greg775]

Is Floyd the next Kip Wells?

I say immediately make him a reliever.

[southsideirish71]

Is Floyd the next Kip Wells?

I say immediately make him a reliever.

 

We will make sure we get your instructions to Coop. He appreciates your input.

[RX Bandits]

This point was on B&B and it should shut up people complaining about the trade. Remember when KW traded "untouchable" miguel olivo (sucks now) for freddy garcia and sure some people on this board hated that trade. Fast forward to last year where he traded the greaest CF of all time Aaron Rowand for JIM THOME. Then turns around and trades Garcia who people b****ed about getting ini the first place, for prospects. In short, If you fall in love with players, it is costly, and baseball retarted.

Edited December 7, 2006 by RX Bandits

[CWSGuy406]

I'll try to make this clear yet again. In 2006, we had Garcia in the rotation and BMac as the long reliever/#6 starter. In 2007, we'll have BMac in the rotation and Haeger/Floyd/Tracey as the long reliever/#6 starter. Which is better: Garcia+BMac or BMac+?????. So the trade did not help in 2007.

 

WTF are you talking about? BMac was a below average reliever last year. I'd be willing to bet that Haeger or Floyd do better than BMac in the bullpen last year.

 

The sixth man in our bullpen isn't going to make us "significantly worse" heading into next year, either way.

 

Also, you talk about how we now lack starting pitching depth. Haeger is unproven, yes, but so are most teams' sixth and seventh starters. That's not unique to the Sox; it's either that or veteran retread types like Tim Redding. I'd say our depth at the starting pitching spot is, at worst, average. Our current sixth and seventh starters (Haeger and Phillips) are two guys coming off of seasons with ERAs bordering 3.00 in a hitters haven at Charlotte. You're picking nits here.

[Buehrle>Wood]

This point was on B&B and it should shut up people complaining about the trade. Remember when KW traded "untouchable" miguel olivo (sucks now) for freddy garcia and sure some people on this board hated that trade. Fast forward to last year where he traded the greaest CF of all time Aaron Rowand for JIM THOME. Then turns around and trades Garcia who people b****ed about getting ini the first place, for prospects. In short, If you fall in love with players, it is costly, and baseball retarted.

 

This point was on B&B and it should shut up people complaining about the trade. Remember when KW traded "untouchable" miguel olivo (sucks now) for freddy garcia and sure some people on this board hated that trade. Fast forward to last year where he traded the greaest CF of all time Aaron Rowand for JIM THOME. Then turns around and trades Garcia who people b****ed about getting ini the first place, for prospects. In short, If you fall in love with players, it is costly, and baseball retarted.

I heard it too, but I think they missed the point.

 

 

The problem here was not losing the player as it was in all those other cases. Everyone knew either Freddy of Javy would be gone by April 1st. What everyone here wants to know is wether we got enough in such a crazed market.

 

Although I don't mind this trade so much, I don't think there is an argument against that.

[ShoeLessRob]

This point was on B&B and it should shut up people complaining about the trade. Remember when KW traded "untouchable" miguel olivo (sucks now) for freddy garcia and sure some people on this board hated that trade. Fast forward to last year where he traded the greaest CF of all time Aaron Rowand for JIM THOME. Then turns around and trades Garcia who people b****ed about getting ini the first place, for prospects. In short, If you fall in love with players, it is costly, and baseball retarted.

 

Ok, I couldn't make out much of this statement but I pray to god that bold part is sarcasm.

[ChiSox9]

I heard it too, but I think they missed the point.

The problem here was not losing the player as it was in all those other cases. Everyone knew either Freddy of Javy would be gone by April 1st. What everyone here wants to know is wether we got enough in such a crazed market.

 

Although I don't mind this trade so much, I don't think there is an argument against that.

 

IMHO- We got more than enough for a 30 yr old pitcher losing velocity in his contract year who can't hold a runner on to save his soul!!! PK probably would have racked up 2-3 SBs last season off of Garcia.

 

Dont get me wrong, I thought Freddy was great and he was clutch for this team but Its get Gio & Gavin NOW or 2 unknown draft picks after next season!

[daa84]

Here is an interesting tidbit about Floyd from CNNSI:

The Sox hire a former Phillies exec then execute a trade with the same team. Just speculation, but maybe Amaro gave KW some valuable information about Floyd that would make him believe he had more value than others were stating.

i'll take you one farther.....buchholz used to be in teh phillies organization as well....and was their top prospect about 3 or 4 years ago

[WCSox]

I've been a believer in KW since trhe David Wells trade, because it was so anti-Schuler. Wells didn't get back to the playoffs, but in my mind, it was a gutsy move that had the goal of getting us deep into the playoffs. That was so different than what we had seen with Schuler. Since that trade was made, I have given KW the benefit of the doubt because I know that his ulterior motive is to make the team as good as possible for as long as possible. Add to that the fact that he did, in fact, bring us home a WS championship, I will continue to give him the benefit of the doubt without flying off the handle at each and every that I don't understand at first.

 

+1

 

Not that Schueler is a good basis for comparison as a GM, but I tend to give KW the benefit of the doubt as well. I wasn't happy with the Carlos/Pods deal, but the payroll that it freed up allowed the Sox to bolster their pitching staff. And Pods was a menace on the bases until the groin injury that August.

 

I'm not thrilled with this deal either, but I'm not going to criticize KW until he gives me a few good reasons to do so.