I'm positive Kenny shows Cooper these guys on video and Coop gives him the thumbs up or thumbs down. My guess is Coop and Kenny identified this guy a long while ago, and he just became available now.

Anyone watching the D-backs and Pena play in the 2007 postseason [and his reg. season with 30 holds] know why he would be identified by many teams to acquire. Now, he just has to get back to throwing like that.

Look at it this way...if it does come to pass.

 

Jim Thome (DH, assuming Konerko stays) and Tony Pena >>> Brandon Allen and Octavio Dotel for 2010

 

They'll just take the money from Dotel and that would be a nice number (maybe a bit higher) to keep Thome around one more year...he certainly doesn't have any reason to want to leave Chicago or go to the NL, so it seems his options are pretty limited. And getting to 600 homers in a White Sox uniform would be another nice story for the franchise.

Thome is probably gone. IIRC - and I may be wrong - but I think that once we hit that negotiation window we're somehow not allowed to offer much less than arb in a contract offer. Isn't that how we lost Everett and Alomar the first time? If so, Dotel is gone for the same reason.

 

It's not that I don't think Pena has talent, and it's not that I'm crushed we dealt Allen, but I would have rather packaged Allen if nothing else for either a position player or another pitcher who hasn't been on a straight decline for the last two seasons and is incapable of gaining the manager's trust even on a bad NL team. I don't have a problem dealing most of our prospects, but I don't feel like we even shopped Allen.

If we move Dotel for some prospects, this deal makes sense. On it own, I find it highly questionable.

Thome is probably gone. IIRC - and I may be wrong - but I think that once we hit that negotiation window we're somehow not allowed to offer much less than arb in a contract offer. Isn't that how we lost Everett and Alomar the first time? If so, Dotel is gone for the same reason.

 

It's not that I don't think Pena has talent, and it's not that I'm crushed we dealt Allen, but I would have rather packaged Allen if nothing else for either a position player or another pitcher who hasn't been on a straight decline for the last two seasons and is incapable of gaining the manager's trust even on a bad NL team. I don't have a problem dealing most of our prospects, but I don't feel like we even shopped Allen.

You have to either re-sign a player like Thome, Dye, Dotel by about December 1st of each year. If you do not offer them arbitration, you can not resign that same player until about April 1. If you do offer them arbitration, they have about 6 weeks to decide whether they want to accept, during which time you can continue to negotiate with them.

Here's what I want to know -- is there not a younger, more productive relief pitcher in their minor league system?

Forget their system - I thought we had some in ours. I figured someone like Link or Rodriguez was lining up to be the Dotel replacement.

 

I thought Alen was our 1Bman of the future?

Here's my problem: If his value is maximized in a trade package, then he has no real value at all.

Kinda like how we got Tyler Flowers, because alone he wasn't worth Javy?

This feels like Mike MacDougal/David Aardsma all over again.

See that piece of garbage that just gave up all those runs in tonight's game? The Indians gave up a PROVEN MLB player that plays multiple positions and has hit everywhere he's been for him, and we are pissed at moving Brandon Allen? There is some serious delusion on this board if you think adding another meh prospect to a group of meh prospects was going to net you an elite or even a great player. Pena slots directly into the 7th or 8th inning next year and gets to work with one of the best pitching coaches in the game. Good deal, but all in all nothing really that should warrant more than 5 pages on this board.

 

I would rather have Chris Perez than Tony Pena, he's younger and has more upside. Plus supposedly the PTBNL in that deal is somebody good.

Again, look at our pen and tell me who you're confident will still be there and still be worth a crap in two years and I'll tell you why we picked up Peña.

 

This also leads me to think we're probably not shooting for the moon in the trade market.

Again, look at our pen and tell me who you're confident will still be there and still be worth a crap in two years and I'll tell you why we picked up Peña.

 

This also leads me to think we're probably not shooting for the moon in the trade market.

 

I thnk the big hold up for people is that relief pitching is such an unstable thing from yeear to year. Just look at guys like Cotts and Politte

 

And Carrasco on the flip side. To have a good pen, you have to either acquire top flight arms or, most of the time, you get lucky with a few guys.

 

What Pena is , im not sure. If attendance is going to keep us from being buyers, why not just hold onto your prospects and go for it next year when payroll drops

 

 

 

 

Maybe their fear was that Allen looks awful to the eye in AAA and they dont want to see their asset take a nosedive. I gotta think this is why Flowers is not promoted yet. Let him look good for awhile longer.

Edited July 8, 200916 yr by Princess Dye

Again, look at our pen and tell me who you're confident will still be there and still be worth a crap in two years and I'll tell you why we picked up Peña.

 

This also leads me to think we're probably not shooting for the moon in the trade market.

 

 

I am not dissapointed in the move it's just that I would like to know if this means a further committment to Konerko, which I would love to see, plus who is out in our bullpen now? I would assume Gobble goes back to AAA, but then again maybe there are some moves still to be made via trade?

The odd thing is right now he is the 5th option from the right side behind Jenks, Linebrink, Dotel and Carrasco.

Something to consider, Allen was from the 2004 draft, 5th round. The sox haven't had many guys make it in the bigs from those early 2000 drafts

 

You have to either re-sign a player like Thome, Dye, Dotel by about December 1st of each year. If you do not offer them arbitration, you can not resign that same player until about April 1. If you do offer them arbitration, they have about 6 weeks to decide whether they want to accept, during which time you can continue to negotiate with them.

That makes sense then.

 

So say we offer Dotel $3.5M and Thome $6M + some small incentives. Thome and Dotel both decide to test FA, so we deny arb. So then if they decide they like their offers later, doesn't that mean we still can't sign them until like June or something, which means they're gone? And even if we could sign them later, we'd have already likely met or come very close to meeting our budget by the time they accept our initial offers.

 

So basically unless both Thome and Dotel want to immediately accept low-ball offers well below arb and forgo FA to stay, they're gone after the year.

A few thoughts:

 

- No one should be surprised to see Kenny deal for a late-20s reliever with good stuff and uninspiring results. It's a move that's worked for the organization before with Marte and Thorton (it also failed in deals for MacDougal and Horacio Ramirez).

 

- It probably also shouldn't be a surprise that Kenny overpaid. We dealt Matt Guerrier, who was rated something like the third best prospect in the organization at the time, to get Marte. Maybe some would claim that deal suggests that this one will also be successful but even if you knew Guerrier wouldn't amount to much, you have to figure we could've acquired Marte for less and acquired someone else valuable for Guerrier; the same logic applies here.

 

- All fans probably overrate their team's prospects some but it's not as though the notion that Allen is a legit prospect was created entirely by a message board; well educated members of the media also play a role. Kevin Goldstein, for one, has talked about Allen plenty the past couple seasons and included him in his Top 100 Prospects list this past off season.

 

- How is acquiring a reliever who figures to pitch the sixth inning for us this year "going for it" this season? I'd say this move was made with with future seasons in mind much more so than this year.

That makes sense then.

 

So say we offer Dotel $3.5M and Thome $6M + some small incentives.

 

I don't believe that you can offer someone less than their present salary in arbitration.

I don't believe that you can offer someone less than their present salary in arbitration.

I'm talking about the negotiation window prior to the arb deadline where a deal has to be signed. I didn't think you could offer much less than arb but apparently you can. I don't know for sure though. I do know we lost Everett and Alomar after '03 because of these issues though.

Dodgers might be looking for some bullpen arms, as Bellisario has some elbow problems. Dotel to the Dodgers makes a lot of sense.

Again, look at our pen and tell me who you're confident will still be there and still be worth a crap in two years and I'll tell you why we picked up Peña.

 

Who cares? It's a bullpen and can be thrown together at any time. See: Chicago White Sox for the last decade.

 

 

What a bad deal, and I'm usually KW's biggest defender. We were all thinking Allen was untouchable...and we trade him for Tony Pena.

In my opinion, Kenny just picked up one of the best relievers available, so he can control the market for relievers by trading someone like Dotel by the deadline. Kenny holds all the cards now, it will be hard for contending teams to pick up a bullpen arm by the deadline, so now we can sit back and wait for all the offers to pour in.

Who cares? It's a bullpen and can be thrown together at any time. See: Chicago White Sox for the last decade.

 

 

What a bad deal, and I'm usually KW's biggest defender. We were all thinking Allen was untouchable...and we trade him for Tony Pena.

 

Since when is Allen untouchable? He was probably our 5th or 6th best prospect.

Something to consider, Allen was from the 2004 draft, 5th round. The sox haven't had many guys make it in the bigs from those early 2000 drafts

 

The '06 draft was a disaster

In my opinion, Kenny just picked up one of the best relievers available, so he can control the market for relievers by trading someone like Dotel by the deadline. Kenny holds all the cards now, it will be hard for contending teams to pick up a bullpen arm by the deadline, so now we can sit back and wait for all the offers to pour in.

 

Very uplifting post. I would imagine though there are other guys out there to be had

That makes sense then.

 

So say we offer Dotel $3.5M and Thome $6M + some small incentives. Thome and Dotel both decide to test FA, so we deny arb. So then if they decide they like their offers later, doesn't that mean we still can't sign them until like June or something, which means they're gone? And even if we could sign them later, we'd have already likely met or come very close to meeting our budget by the time they accept our initial offers.

 

So basically unless both Thome and Dotel want to immediately accept low-ball offers well below arb and forgo FA to stay, they're gone after the year.

That is correct. If Dotel and Thome do not sign in November for whatever we offer them, and we do not offer arbitration, they can not sign with the Sox again for any number until the beginning of the actual regular season.