Buehrle>Wood Posted July 8, 2009 Share Posted July 8, 2009 QUOTE (Heads22 @ Jul 8, 2009 -> 03:39 AM) Since when is Allen untouchable? He was probably our 5th or 6th best prospect. He would be #1 with Beckham up to the big according to FutureSox. That as of June 4th. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heads22 Posted July 8, 2009 Share Posted July 8, 2009 QUOTE (Buehrle>Wood @ Jul 7, 2009 -> 09:48 PM) He would be #1 with Beckham up to the big according to FutureSox. That as of June 4th. He wouldn't be there in our midseason rankings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beck72 Posted July 8, 2009 Share Posted July 8, 2009 QUOTE (fathom @ Jul 8, 2009 -> 02:26 AM) Dodgers might be looking for some bullpen arms, as Bellisario has some elbow problems. Dotel to the Dodgers makes a lot of sense. I'd say a NL team for sure. The sox wouldn't want Dotel to come back and throw vs. them in the playoffs if they get there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beck72 Posted July 8, 2009 Share Posted July 8, 2009 QUOTE (WSoxMatt @ Jul 8, 2009 -> 02:40 AM) The '06 draft was a disaster Many of the sox drafts were in the last 10 years Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozzie Ball Posted July 8, 2009 Share Posted July 8, 2009 QUOTE (WSoxMatt @ Jul 8, 2009 -> 03:40 AM) The '06 draft was a disaster Yes it was. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
almagest Posted July 8, 2009 Share Posted July 8, 2009 I'm almost certain we got good value for Allen in this trade, and I liked him a lot. Conor Jackson is hitting .182/.264/.253/.516 this year, and was solid but unspectacular the past 2 years. Chad Tracy and Tony Clark aren't doing anything, either (.206 and .175 avg respectively), so the DBacks have no good option at first base right now. They don't have anything worthwhile in the minors at 1B either, AFAIK. Allen fills a big hole for them, meaning we're probably seeing the max return for Allen at this point in his career. I don't have a problem with that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThunderBolt Posted July 8, 2009 Share Posted July 8, 2009 QUOTE (almagest @ Jul 7, 2009 -> 11:18 PM) Allen fills a big hole for them, meaning we're probably seeing the max return for Allen at this point in his career. I don't have a problem with that. You’ve explained to me why the D-Backs would want Brandon Allen. Now, please, explain to me how Tony Pena is a max return. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitesoxfan101 Posted July 8, 2009 Share Posted July 8, 2009 The ONLY positive spin I can put on this trade is that it is BY FAR the worst trade we've made on paper since the Pods trade, and that one worked out very well. But besides that, wow, what a terrible decision. I couldn't even enjoy the win tonight because of this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted July 8, 2009 Share Posted July 8, 2009 Even Rongey's trying to sell this based on the improvement Thornton made after he came to the Sox. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThunderBolt Posted July 8, 2009 Share Posted July 8, 2009 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 7, 2009 -> 11:27 PM) Even Rongey's trying to sell this based on the improvement Thornton made after he came to the Sox. Matt Thornton was a first round pick, who found his true potential by converting to relief and working with Don Cooper. Tony Pena was signed as an amateur free agent, and crafted into the pitcher he is now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitesoxfan101 Posted July 8, 2009 Share Posted July 8, 2009 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 7, 2009 -> 10:27 PM) Even Rongey's trying to sell this based on the improvement Thornton made after he came to the Sox. That's a dumb argument because Brandon Allen has a lot more return value than a mediocre middle reliever. This trade may work out, but it's indefensible on paper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted July 8, 2009 Share Posted July 8, 2009 QUOTE (whitesoxfan101 @ Jul 7, 2009 -> 08:29 PM) That's a dumb argument because Brandon Allen has a lot more return value than a mediocre middle reliever. This trade may work out, but it's indefensible on paper. I know it's silly, but that says something about how even they think about this deal on paper. They know it doesn't look good, so they must be darn certain they can get something out of Pena. Either that or they've completely lost their minds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted July 8, 2009 Share Posted July 8, 2009 Simple.... Allen is 24 already, so it's not like he is a "spring chicken," he's more of a late bloomer. We were dealing from a position of strength in our organization (Konerko, Fields, Viciedo, Flowers, Phegley, etc.) and Allen was no longer projected to be an impact bat based on this season's results, apparently. With Poreda, Carrasco, Thornton, Linebrink, Dotel, Jenks and Pena, we arguably now have the best bullpen in baseball, at least from a "potential" standpoint, in terms of a collection of arms. It's the same principle KW operated under when he had the excess starting pitcher in the organization in 2005 and 2006...to deal from a position of strength instead of one of weakness and desperation. Let's wait to see if Pena can outperform Dotel at significantly less money and Dotel (or dreaming, Linebrink) can be leverage for yet another piece... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoxAce Posted July 8, 2009 Share Posted July 8, 2009 From page 1-3 (or 1-4..) I've poured out my feelings on this. This will definitely be one of those thread bumps in the future, whever years it may come. I don't give a damn if Allen is horrid when he gets to the D-Backs, or if he never makes it, Kenny coulda done much better than this (whether it was a bigger deal for a solid SP/hitter, straight up prospects trade, whatever) or if Pena all of a sudden becomes Joe Nathan in a set-up version (or even close), I still wouldn't like it it as far as a value standpoint. Like I said before pages ago here, Allen was very overrated on this board, Dan and myself didn't even crack him in the top 5 in our system, but an athletic, power hitting, very quick 1B like him even if the sox brass was down on him getting a damn reliever from what you couldn't netted with a Shirek, Ely etc. ?! I've never not liked a KW deal.. NOT ONCE since I'm been here in 5 years. I've liked every deal he's made cause of his track record, scouts, etc.. (still defend the Swisher deal/C. Young deal which STILL people hate here) but I can't even do it in this deal which is the very first time for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted July 8, 2009 Share Posted July 8, 2009 QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jul 7, 2009 -> 08:30 PM) Allen is 24 already, so it's not like he is a "spring chicken," he's more of a late bloomer. We were dealing from a position of strength in our organization (Konerko, Fields, Viciedo, Flowers, Phegley, etc.) and Allen was no longer projected to be an impact bat based on this season's results, apparently. Isn't 24 and in AAA almost exactly the normal schedule for guys? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted July 8, 2009 Share Posted July 8, 2009 QUOTE (Palehosefan @ Jul 7, 2009 -> 07:16 PM) I have the same sick feeling I did when MacDougal was added for Daniel Cortes and Lumsden. Yuck. Good, because MacDougal was lights out for the Sox when the first acquired him. It doesn't hurt to strenghten the bullpen. 2 back of Detroit and Detroit is woeful on the road and have 47 road games the second half. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoxFan1 Posted July 8, 2009 Share Posted July 8, 2009 Kimmy Gobble DFA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoxAce Posted July 8, 2009 Share Posted July 8, 2009 Where are people getting 24 from? He's 23. I don't care if that's just a year off, get your damn facts right. BTW, yes I'm still bitter here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flavum Posted July 8, 2009 Share Posted July 8, 2009 Brandon Allen is 23. He'll be 24 next February. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitesoxfan101 Posted July 8, 2009 Share Posted July 8, 2009 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 7, 2009 -> 10:30 PM) I know it's silly, but that says something about how even they think about this deal on paper. They know it doesn't look good, so they must be darn certain they can get something out of Pena. Either that or they've completely lost their minds. If they liked Pena, fine. They could have got him for a lot less than Brandon Allen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveBrown85 Posted July 8, 2009 Share Posted July 8, 2009 QUOTE (SoxFan1 @ Jul 7, 2009 -> 10:34 PM) Kimmy Gobble DFA very nice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted July 8, 2009 Share Posted July 8, 2009 QUOTE (knightni @ Jul 7, 2009 -> 09:18 PM) I don't believe that you can offer someone less than their present salary in arbitration. You can offer a 20% cut, but if you did that to Dotel, unless he was looking for something ridiculous, he would win. You could offer him anything you want before you offer arb. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted July 8, 2009 Share Posted July 8, 2009 (edited) QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 7, 2009 -> 09:33 PM) Good, because MacDougal was lights out for the Sox when the first acquired him. It doesn't hurt to strenghten the bullpen. 2 back of Detroit and Detroit is woeful on the road and have 47 road games the second half. DET has gone 15-6 against the "weak" AL West and we've struggled against TEX and OAK but we still have quite a few more games remaining with those teams...we're 7-9 in six fewer games, accounting for 5 1/2 games in the standings. Edited July 8, 2009 by caulfield12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted July 8, 2009 Share Posted July 8, 2009 QUOTE (SoxAce @ Jul 7, 2009 -> 08:36 PM) Where are people getting 24 from? He's 23. I don't care if that's just a year off, get your damn facts right. BTW, yes I'm still bitter here. In that case, that makes him a little ahead of the normal AAA age pace right? So the "Allen sucks he's too old to be at that level" doesn't hold up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoxFan1 Posted July 8, 2009 Share Posted July 8, 2009 Carrasco, Poreda, Pena, Dotel, Linebrink, Thornton, Jenks...that's one hell of a bullpen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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