Why Kotsay shouldn't Bat 5th

[chw42]

Pierre looks weak defensively when he's compared to Crawford, but so does just about every other LF in the game.

 

I'll take Pierre's defense over that of Quentin, Pods, Carlos Lee, Albert Belle, etc.

 

Crawford makes everybody look bad. He's a great CF playing left field.

[balfanman]

Yes, they do. They have above average, and in some cases, elite caliber defense, in LF/CF/3B/SS/1B. The White Sox have above average defense at exactly 1 position. And that's RF with Rios (or when they play him in CF). Alexei has the tools to be an above average defensive SS. But he's not there yet. PK is good at scooping up poor throws. But he has zero range. Everybody else is either below average or not proven yet. It's not even close.

 

Edit: Pierre has good range. But that arm.

 

I agree that the Rays are probably better defensively and it's more than likely just a matter of semantics between us, but I don't think thatr the edge will prove to be "enormous". Other than Pierres' arm I think that our outfielders (any combination of Pierre, Rios, Jones, or Quentin) will prove to be among the best in the majors. Teahen, who knows yet; Ramirez could also be elite if he finds consistancy; Beckham, probably not yet but by the end of the season I'm thinking that he will rank among the best 2nd basemen. While not the most agile at 1st base I believe that Pauly more than makes up for any range issue with his scooping ability, saving countless errors. All in all, I think that by the end of the year our infield defense will rank in the top third of the league as well. A. J. is well....A. J., average at best defensively but apparently knows how to handle pitchers. I'm not that familiar with the Rays catcher but I can't imagine that all things consdered that he's tremendously better than A. J.

 

Again, I'm not argueing that the Rays are better defensively, I just don't think that the difference will prove to be all that enormous. JMHO.

 

[chw42]

I agree that the Rays are probably better defensively and it's more than likely just a matter of semantics between us, but I don't think thatr the edge will prove to be "enormous". Other than Pierres' arm I think that our outfielders (any combination of Pierre, Rios, Jones, or Quentin) will prove to be among the best in the majors. Teahen, who knows yet; Ramirez could also be elite if he finds consistancy; Beckham, probably not yet but by the end of the season I'm thinking that he will rank among the best 2nd basemen. While not the most agile at 1st base I believe that Pauly more than makes up for any range issue with his scooping ability, saving countless errors. All in all, I think that by the end of the year our infield defense will rank in the top third of the league as well. A. J. is well....A. J., average at best defensively but apparently knows how to handle pitchers. I'm not that familiar with the Rays catcher but I can't imagine that all things consdered that he's tremendously better than A. J.

 

Again, I'm not argueing that the Rays are better defensively, I just don't think that the difference will prove to be all that enormous. JMHO.

 

The Rays arguably have one of the best outfields in this past decade.

 

Both Crawford and Upton are amazing fielders and Zobrist is good just about everywhere.

 

Their outfield could save 40-50 runs for that pitching staff, which is just mind boggling. Those three had a combined UZR of +40 last year and that was with Zobrist playing only 60 games last year in RF.

Edited April 7, 2010 by chw42

[Jordan4life_2007]

Pierre looks weak defensively when he's compared to Crawford, but so does just about every other LF in the game.

 

I'll take Pierre's defense over that of Quentin, Pods, Carlos Lee, Albert Belle, etc.

 

 

 

Of course they have a better lineup. They had a full decade of high draft picks. What's their excuse for not developing the same level of starting pitching that the Marlins did in 2003?

 

Get back to me when you make a point.

[caulfield12]

We'll see how well that "defense-first" approach works with the Mariners this season...at least it's an idea or strategy, something the Royals don't seem to have at all, ever.

 

Beckham and Ramirez both quite obviously have the ability to be above average defenders, Teahen, mehhh....but still probably better than Fields/Beckham, which isn't saying much. We've been spoiled with Ventura and Crede, let's just leave it at that.

 

Obviously we were atrocious last year, so it's hard to go backwards. Maybe we've gone from bottom quartile to Top 25-50%, I think you can make a legit argument swapping Dye and Pods for Pierre and Quentin in his correct position, not to mention Andruw Jones, Rios and Vizquel...that our outfield defense has gone from a huge negative to an overall asset to the club, which is quite an accomplishment.

 

And let's not forget Kotsay at 1B and Nix's flashes in the infield as well.

 

And we have Danks and (knock on wood) Mitchell to look forward to in the future as well. Pretty happy with KW's addressing some of these areas, although the jury is still out on Tyler Flowers replacing AJ.

[WCSox]

Get back to me when you make a point.

 

Your pimping of the Rays' talent-for-dollar ratio fails to account for the fact that they had a decade-long stretch of Top 5 and Top 10 draft picks. That tends to make it a hell of a lot easier to field a talented team for less, and isn't really comparable to the Sox's situation. The only way for the Sox to "trade" for the Rays' roster would be to repeat 2007 10 years in a row.

 

Edited April 8, 2010 by WCSox

[WHarris1]

Back to the point at hand...make it stop!

[T R U]

Back to the point at hand...make it stop!

 

I would have lost it if he had come up with the bases loaded AGAIN

[Jordan4life_2007]

Your pimping of the Rays' talent-for-dollar ratio fails to account for the fact that they had a decade-long stretch of Top 5 and Top 10 draft picks. That tends to make it a hell of a lot easier to field a talented team for less, and isn't really comparable to the Sox's situation. The only way for the Sox to "trade" for the Rays' roster would be to repeat 2007 10 years in a row.

 

Again, what is your point? A specific question was asked. "What teams would you trade rosters with that has an equal or lower payroll as that of the Sox?' He didn't ask, "What teams would you trade rosters with that has an equal or lower payroll as that of the Sox? Oh, and teams that have had multiple high first round picks don't count." And your argument really has no merit. It's "easier" to field a contending team when you have top 5 and top 10 draft picks every year? Tell that to the Pirates and Royals. What makes it "easier" to field a contending team is when you can spend money. I don't want to even think about what the Rays would be able to pull off if they had legitimate financial flexibility. They're on the cusp of losing two all-stars, and not because they don't want them back. They simply won't be able to afford to pay them.

Edited April 8, 2010 by Jordan4life

[WCSox]

Again, what is your point? A specific question was asked. "What teams would you trade rosters with that has an equal or lower payroll as that of the Sox?' He didn't ask, "What teams would you trade rosters with that has an equal or lower payroll as that of the Sox? Oh, and teams that have had multiple high first round picks don't count."

 

So you're basically comparing two completely different scenarios, without regard to the context. Gotcha.

 

You bemoan the fact that we have Teahen and Pierre in our lineup, and suggest that Rays fans would scoff at the idea of having those guys in their lineup...

 

And what would a Rays fan say if their starting LF/3B was Juan Pierre and Mark Teahen? And their rotation might be young. But David Price and Wade Davis project out to elite #1 and #2 starters. Jeff Niemann looks like a solid middle-of-the-rotation guy.

 

... but completely ignore the respective situations that the two organizations have been in for the past decade. Yeah, it would sure be nice to have Longoria and Crawford instead, but the draft rights to talent like that comes at a price. In the case of the Rays, it was finishing in 5th place in 9 of their first 10 years of existence. Sure, I'd love the have the Rays lineup as well, but not at the cost of a championship and a team that's competitive and watchable on a semi-regular basis.

 

So, yes, you are technically correct that the Rays have a better lineup at a lower cost than the Sox. But it's a really bad comparison.

 

And your argument really has no merit. It's "easier" to field a contending team when you have top 5 and top 10 draft picks every year? Tell that to the Pirates and Royals. What makes it "easier" to field a contending team is when you can spend money. I don't want to even think about what the Rays would be able to pull off if they had legitimate financial flexibility. They're on the cusp of losing two all-stars, and not because they don't want them back. They simply won't be able to afford to pay them.

 

I completely disagree with this. Having money to spend on free agents is nice (and at least some is necessary to build a champion), but spending one's way to a championship usually doesn't work (Yankees excluded, due to their excessively-deep pockets). Just about every team needs to build around a core of young, affordable talent. The Phillies are a good example of this. And, sure, rounding out a good core of young talent with expensive veterans is nice (as the Red Sox have done), but consistent access to cheap, young talent trumps all.

 

You cite the Pirates and Royals as examples of teams that can't compete because of their lack of financial resources, but I'll argue that their own incompetence is what's holding them back. Organizations that make stupid decisions on free agents, like the Cubs and Mets, don't win pennants, not matter how much disposable income they have. Case in point: The Marlins have won two WS in the past 18 years, while the Cubs haven't wont any in over 100. And the core of that second championship was mostly home-grown on a shoestring budget.

 

The early '90s Sox are a good example of a team with middle-market resources whose intelligent use of high draft picks from '87-'90 (Frank, Blackjack, Ventura, Alvarez, etc.) set their stage for a run of highly-competitive years. Hell, it took the Sox tanking in 2007 for them to have access to a stud like Beckham.

Edited April 8, 2010 by WCSox

[hammerhead johnson]

For the love of god, just put Rios in the 5th slot. I don't mind Kotsay when he's in the lower 1/3 of the order, but you can't have him batting when there are multiple players on base (mad ducks on the pond). Is there a worse #5 hitter in baseball?

 

I had a bad feeling that he was gonna step to the plate with the bases loaded in the first inning of last night's game. That would have been a pretty sweet double play for the opposition.

 

Kotsay is a valuable bench player, but a mediocre starter at best. It's questionable to even have him batting in the lower 1/3 of the order, and downright silly to have him batting out of the 5th slot.

 

Konerko is on fire right now, so if opposing SPs see Kotsay in the on-deck circle, why would they even bother with Paul?

[Balta1701]

Is there a worse #5 hitter in baseball?

David Ortiz.

[hammerhead johnson]

David Ortiz.

 

At least he got back on the roids and put up an .870 OPS after the all star break last season.

 

[caulfield12]

So you're basically comparing two completely different scenarios, without regard to the context. Gotcha.

 

You bemoan the fact that we have Teahen and Pierre in our lineup, and suggest that Rays fans would scoff at the idea of having those guys in their lineup...

 

 

 

... but completely ignore the respective situations that the two organizations have been in for the past decade. Yeah, it would sure be nice to have Longoria and Crawford instead, but the draft rights to talent like that comes at a price. In the case of the Rays, it was finishing in 5th place in 9 of their first 10 years of existence. Sure, I'd love the have the Rays lineup as well, but not at the cost of a championship and a team that's competitive and watchable on a semi-regular basis.

 

So, yes, you are technically correct that the Rays have a better lineup at a lower cost than the Sox. But it's a really bad comparison.

 

 

 

I completely disagree with this. Having money to spend on free agents is nice (and at least some is necessary to build a champion), but spending one's way to a championship usually doesn't work (Yankees excluded, due to their excessively-deep pockets). Just about every team needs to build around a core of young, affordable talent. The Phillies are a good example of this. And, sure, rounding out a good core of young talent with expensive veterans is nice (as the Red Sox have done), but consistent access to cheap, young talent trumps all.

 

You cite the Pirates and Royals as examples of teams that can't compete because of their lack of financial resources, but I'll argue that their own incompetence is what's holding them back. Organizations that make stupid decisions on free agents, like the Cubs and Mets, don't win pennants, not matter how much disposable income they have. Case in point: The Marlins have won two WS in the past 18 years, while the Cubs haven't wont any in over 100. And the core of that second championship was mostly home-grown on a shoestring budget.

 

The early '90s Sox are a good example of a team with middle-market resources whose intelligent use of high draft picks from '87-'90 (Frank, Blackjack, Ventura, Alvarez, etc.) set their stage for a run of highly-competitive years. Hell, it took the Sox tanking in 2007 for them to have access to a stud like Beckham.

 

Alvarez was part of the Baines trade and I think signed directly out of Venezuela, but the point still stands.

 

Even some of our secondary pieces from those days like Scott Radinsky, Jason Bere and Greg Hibbard came out of our system. And then we picked up some valuable players like Lance Johnson and Melido Perez from other organizations.

 

All and all, Himes did a very good job picking up the pieces after the Harrelson debacle.

 

 

[Kalapse]

David Ortiz.

If Kotsay could give us 28 HR and a .794 OPS I'd take it.

[caulfield12]

Now we're back to wishing/hoping we could pencil someone into the line-up with Jim Thome's numbers.

 

Even though we apparently don't need or want Thome anymore. Maddening.

 

 

[ThunderBolt]

Now we're back to wishing/hoping we could pencil someone into the line-up with Jim Thome's numbers.

 

Even though we apparently don't need or want Thome anymore. Maddening.

Silly, Caufield. We don't have the at-bats for Thome.

January 23, 2010

"The only reason I'm thinking about this and the conversation with Jimmy is I don't know how many at-bats I'm going to get him,'' Guillen added. "It's not fair to Jim Thome and the ballclub to play with that. I'm not going to lie to Jimmy and say, 'We're going to bring you, you can play every day,' then all of a sudden I change my mind. I want to walk into the clubhouse with my head up. I don't want to walk into the clubhouse and try to avoid Jimmy because he's not playing."

http://blogs.suntimes.com/whitesox/2010/01...call_and_t.html

 

WAIT, WHAT?

March 29, 2010

"One thing I'm going to ask my players in my meeting is to be patient," Guillen said. "I know everyone wants to be in the lineup, especially on Opening Day. Be patient. Don't feel left out. I'm the type of guy who likes to play guys a lot, especially the bench. I've done that the past few years. They're going to get their at-bats."

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/ct-spt-0330-bits-white-sox-chicago-spring20100329,0,7263710.story

Edited April 8, 2010 by Thunderbolt

[hammerhead johnson]

We got the in-house solution, though. Alex Rios is looking confident as hell right now, and if he's right between the ears, then the sky is the limit.

[WCSox]

Now we're back to wishing/hoping we could pencil someone into the line-up with Jim Thome's numbers.

 

Even though we apparently don't need or want Thome anymore. Maddening.

 

I'm convinced that Thome didn't want to come back. And I don't blame him, as I imagine that winning a WS is his top priority. An objective analysis would probably give the Twins a slight edge over the Sox this year.

 

[ThunderBolt]

I'm convinced that Thome didn't want to come back. And I don't blame him, as I imagine that winning a WS is his top priority. An objective analysis would probably give the Twins a slight edge over the Sox this year.

Not even close. Jim Thome was pretty outspoken about wanting to return to the White Sox. This is on Ozzie. He made the choice, and he justified it to KW multiple times by claiming eventual responsibility. Oh, yeah And This:

''I'll be honest, I would still love to come back,'' Thome said, tightening the blue batting gloves on each hand. ''I still care about the city. I mean, we're going to live there. Chicago's very fond in my heart. The time that I spent there, [chairman Jerry Reinsdorf] treated me great. I guess we'll deal with that when this is all over with.'' http://blogs.suntimes.com/whitesox/2009/10...urn_to_sox.html

Edited April 8, 2010 by Thunderbolt

[WCSox]

Not even close. Jim Thome was pretty outspoken about wanting to return to the White Sox. This is on Ozzie. He made the choice, and he justified it to KW multiple times by claiming eventual responsibility. Oh, yeah And This:

''I'll be honest, I would still love to come back,'' Thome said, tightening the blue batting gloves on each hand. ''I still care about the city. I mean, we're going to live there. Chicago's very fond in my heart. The time that I spent there, [chairman Jerry Reinsdorf] treated me great. I guess we'll deal with that when this is all over with.'' http://blogs.suntimes.com/whitesox/2009/10...urn_to_sox.html

 

This could also be orchestrated. If there's anything that I've learned about contract negotiations, it's that you rarely hear the real story in the press. Even truly good individuals like Thome are cognizant of their image and will take the necessary steps to protect it.

 

Then again, it's also possible that this did play out as it was broadcasted through the press. We'll probably never know for sure.

 

[ThunderBolt]

This could also be orchestrated. If there's anything that I've learned about contract negotiations, it's that you rarely hear the real story in the press. Even truly good individuals like Thome are cognizant of their image and will take the necessary steps to protect it.

 

Then again, it's also possible that this did play out as it was broadcasted through the press. We'll probably never know for sure.

Are we really starting up a conspiracy theory about a genuine guy who has been on record multiple times saying he wanted to come back, and was the subject of a public and heated exchange at Soxfest between the manager and the GM?

[WCSox]

Are we really starting up a conspiracy theory about a genuine guy who has been on record multiple times saying he wanted to come back, and was the subject of a public and heated exchange at Soxfest between the manager and the GM?

 

Are we really going to take everything that the Sox front office feeds to the public at face value?

 

I can think of at least a couple reasons why Thome might have been looking to move on. Given Thome's general likability, Ozzie's particular fondness for him him, and Ozzie's long and storied history of taking negative attention away from his players, I don't believe it's a stretch at all to think that Ozzie may have chosen to take the PR fall for Thome's departure. I'm not saying that's definitely what happened, but it's certainly a possibility.

 

And then again, it may have played out exactly as you say it did. But since neither of us were privy to what was said behind closed doors, we'll never know what really happened.

 

[SI1020]

Are we really starting up a conspiracy theory about a genuine guy who has been on record multiple times saying he wanted to come back, and was the subject of a public and heated exchange at Soxfest between the manager and the GM?

I agree with you on this matter. For the most part I hate conspiracy theories. This one although not earthshaking in nature is worse than most.

[greg775]

Will Sox fans boo Thome like the Indians fans did?