Heyman: KW wants to fire Ozzie

[ptatc]

Ugh, you keep comparing 05 Sox players to the best players in Cub history, when they aren't even close to the same situation. Ron Santo is a borderline HOF player who spent his whole 15 year career on the North Side, but stopped playing 36 years ago. Joe Crede would never be close to sniffing a HOF vote, but is a player still trying to play in the majors, so he is being discussed in context to the present day. No one here ever says Crede did nothing to help us win the 05 title, I wish he never played here. Sox fans will always remember him for his contributions to a WS title and 9 solid seasons here, especially even more as time passes. But they will also remember that a back injury kept him from reaching his full potential unfortunately.

 

Blocking out his last year? Or as a Sox fan do you not want to admit it?

[ptatc]

I don't think it's wrong to defend a WS hero when somebody is mocking him for what? Having a bad back. It's not his fault he has a bad back.

What's wrong with sticking up for a hero? The World Series is uh, a big deal.

 

Not to be picky but it was his fault he had a back injury. He wasn't injured in a car collision or some other "accident." He had back problems and did nothing about it until he ruptured a disc. People can prevent the majority of back injuries, they just usually do nothing about it until it's too late.

 

Ok, medical professional stepping off his high horse.

 

Continue with discussion.

[jamesdiego]

After all of the horrible business decisions that JR, Einhorn, and the rest of the ownership group have made over the past 29 years, I don't share your optimism. JR allowing Kenny to walk to placate Ozzie would be par for the course for him.

 

 

Jerry sure has made major mistakes, but I don't buy all this talk that he'll let KW walk for Ozzie. I don't believe that he somehow favors Oz, better friends with him, more loyal to him, given Oz a job for life. I don't believe it, maybe I don't want to. But JR is a smart guy, and we really have no idea whats hapening behind the scenes. I think it's very well possible that Jerry is mighty pissed at Ozzie. When Oney was talking trash on the organization, I'm sure he let Oz know his feelings. JR might've been the reason Oz told Oney to quit. Jerry doesn't like for him or the organization to be embarrassed. It's all laughs when Ozzie is taking on the Marriotti's of the world, but it can't be funny to him at all when it's going on to his organization. He, and the powers to be have to know who's causing it, and who the problem is. JR was pissed enough last week to tell Oz to make his P.O.S. son once and for all to stop tweeting about the Sox. And now he's letting KW go on road trips, doesn't sound like giving in to Guillen there. Cowley is tearing into the organization everyday, and we all know with JR's past that he hates that crap. And he HAS TO KNOW that the Guillen's are Cowley's source. I gotta keep the faith that he's just waiting til the end of the season, and after the reality show, to fire Ozzie.

[hogan873]

I don't think it's wrong to defend a WS hero when somebody is mocking him for what? Having a bad back. It's not his fault he has a bad back.

What's wrong with sticking up for a hero? The World Series is uh, a big deal.

The World Series was a huge deal. Especially considering we may not see that again for a while. I think the general response here is "lighten up".

[djcollie03]

I know Ozzie and KW have had a strained relationship over the years. Something about this recent flare-up doesn't seem kosher though. You can't be mad at the organization for taking your kid and giving him $50k when everyone else was passing him up. Seems to me like a pretty nice thing the Sox did for the Guillen family.

 

Given the Sox signed on for MLB TV version of The Hills , is it possible all of this silliness is related? Hyping up the dislike, disfunction and deep loyalties sounds like a soap opera to me. Maybe we'll get all the answers in July when the episodes start airing... maybe even before then with teaser plugs for the show? Next week on As the White Sox Turn, we need a translator and a lot of beeps for Ozzie's tirade.

[sircaffey]

I'd fire both of them and let Hahn choose his own manager. Both of KW's and Ozzie's acts are very tired to me. The arrogance within this organization is nauseating. It might be nice to actually have the team get most of the headlines, good or bad, instead of KW's and Ozzie's mouths.

[shakes]

I'm surprised so many people are letting Kenny Williams off the hook. Ozzie needs to take a huge part of the blame in this mess, maybe even the lions share, but Kenny is right there with him. Let's face it, he built this current mess of a roster and he needs to take responsibility. A lot of people want to put this roster on Ozzie, but that is very short sited. I don't remember reading or hearing any where that ozzie demanded Pierre be here, and if Kenny didn't want him he didn't need to trade for him. He considered Pods and talked with the Yankees about Gardner, amongst other possibilities before Pierre. I know Pierre is an Ozzie favorite from about seven years ago, but it wasn't a demand. Kenny traded for Kotsay and signed Jones to be bench guys. As has happened many times in the past, a better alternative was not provided so they are playing regularly. Yes, Ozzie said didn't want Thome(which I think Kenny completely threw him under the bus in that whole situation), and liked the team as is, but what is he suppose to say about his team? Why was the Thome stuff aired publicy at Soxfest except to make Ozzie look like the bad guy? I didn't hear Ozzie protesting when they had talks with Matsui or Damon, or even Nick Johnson. Teahen was all on Kenny. Another underachieving and very poor defensive player. A Kenny Williams staple. The insistance on Quentin going back to right was supposedly all Kenny. The fact that he wants to keep building teams around pitching, and yet he keeps ignoring defense really is a problem.

 

Kenny has built teams with signifacant holes in them since 2007, and is now operating one of the worst farm systems in all of baseball. I have praised him for his moves in the past, and seen him do some incredible things for this organization, but I feel like his ego and past success have really caught up with him. This organization is in a bad spot right now, and I feel like it has more to do with Kenny than Ozzie.

 

Again, not to abstain Ozzie from any of this, his behavior has been nothing short of embarassing for a while now, but I can see a strong argument for getting rid of either, or both.

 

Anyway, the players really are at fault. If Peavy, Buehrle, Floyd, Beckham, Quentin, AJ, and a few others are playing anywhere near their expectations, this team is right in it.

 

Also, I'm not sure how much stock I would put in this Heyman blurb. He's using a source familiar with the situation. Is that even a source? What does that even mean?

 

Maybe JR just wants to give him the rest of the year. Maybe, he wants them both gone at the end? Maybe, this is all blown way out of proportion and sensationalized?

Edited June 15, 2010 by shakes

[harfman77]

I know Ozzie and KW have had a strained relationship over the years. Something about this recent flare-up doesn't seem kosher though. You can't be mad at the organization for taking your kid and giving him $50k when everyone else was passing him up. Seems to me like a pretty nice thing the Sox did for the Guillen family.

 

The reason everyone passed him up because he was an impossible sign for anyone other than his dads team. KW drafts his no-talent son in the seventh round but passes on a legitimate talent that is primed for the WS out of spite towards his dad. It was apparent to me that was Kenny's way of removing any awkwardness that would be in the organization when Ozney is in the farm and his dad gets canned (or so Kenny wishes).

[greg775]

Not to be picky but it was his fault he had a back injury. He wasn't injured in a car collision or some other "accident." He had back problems and did nothing about it until he ruptured a disc. People can prevent the majority of back injuries, they just usually do nothing about it until it's too late.

 

Ok, medical professional stepping off his high horse.

 

Continue with discussion.

 

OK, educate me some more on this. Are you saying Joe specifically contributed to his own injury? What am I missing here? I never read anything like Joe could have prevented his problems.

I always thought as a baseball player who takes a zillion swings a day in the cages and bends over to field grounder after ground, s*** happens to the back.

You said "it was his fault he had a back injury."

I find that a little harsh. If you are a medical professioal you are blaming the patient for incurring an injury? WTF?

 

And I didn't know fathom was kidding. It sounded like a backhanded rip of Joe and it wasn't in green. I see no problem defending these guys even on a meaningless in the big scheme of things message board.

[LittleHurt05]

Blocking out his last year? Or as a Sox fan do you not want to admit it?

 

I totally forgot about that. Looked up his stats on Baseball Reference and my eyes only saw the CHC, not the CHW in his final season.

[ptatc]

OK, educate me some more on this. Are you saying Joe specifically contributed to his own injury? What am I missing here? I never read anything like Joe could have prevented his problems.

I always thought as a baseball player who takes a zillion swings a day in the cages and bends over to field grounder after ground, s*** happens to the back.

You said "it was his fault he had a back injury."

I find that a little harsh. If you are a medical professioal you are blaming the patient for incurring an injury? WTF?

 

And I didn't know fathom was kidding. It sounded like a backhanded rip of Joe and it wasn't in green. I see no problem defending these guys even on a meaningless in the big scheme of things message board.

 

I have no problem with defending the players from 05. I for one didn't ever think I would see a World Series title from the Sox having been a fan since the 70's. I will cherish it always. Crede was and is one of my favorite players to watch due to his defense. That is one reason I was so disappointed in the way he handled his back problems.

 

He began to have back problems and by poor advice from someone (runmor was his agent but that is not substantiated) went outside the organization and was treated by other health care professionals. The pain decreased but he did not take care of the cause of the problem. This is common in everyone's back problems. They hurt the pain decreases and they slack off in the rehab. The pain returns and the cycle is repeated until a major injury results. This is the most common scenario and these are the majority of patients I see. It keeps me in practice but it is a frustrating scenario to know that most of these problems could have been prevented. I don't expect the everyday person off the street to devote their lives to preventing the severe back injuries. However, as you stated, the baseball player is susceptible to these and as soon as his back started to bother him, he should have been devoted to preventing the problem from worsening. As a professional whose superb play is based on physical health I was hoping for more.

 

All this being said, Crede is not the only ballplayer who falls in this scenario. Many others have. So I don't necessarily blame him for it but I am dissappointed in the way he handled it.

[Pants Rowland]

I have no problem with defending the players from 05. I for one didn't ever think I would see a World Series title from the Sox having been a fan since the 70's. I will cherish it always. Crede was and is one of my favorite players to watch due to his defense. That is one reason I was so disappointed in the way he handled his back problems.

 

He began to have back problems and by poor advice from someone (runmor was his agent but that is not substantiated) went outside the organization and was treated by other health care professionals. The pain decreased but he did not take care of the cause of the problem. This is common in everyone's back problems. They hurt the pain decreases and they slack off in the rehab. The pain returns and the cycle is repeated until a major injury results. This is the most common scenario and these are the majority of patients I see. It keeps me in practice but it is a frustrating scenario to know that most of these problems could have been prevented. I don't expect the everyday person off the street to devote their lives to preventing the severe back injuries. However, as you stated, the baseball player is susceptible to these and as soon as his back started to bother him, he should have been devoted to preventing the problem from worsening. As a professional whose superb play is based on physical health I was hoping for more.

 

All this being said, Crede is not the only ballplayer who falls in this scenario. Many others have. So I don't necessarily blame him for it but I am dissappointed in the way he handled it.

 

I love it when you analyze.

[greg775]

Thanks very much for the explanation.

That is very interesting and I respect your professional opinion that he could have done some things to maybe prevent the severity of it.

I also like the fact you said he's far from alone in ignoring the problem cause at times the back feels better.

 

It's a shame.

Why do you think my friend at 30 needed simple back surgery and he wound up using a cane? Was the doc a butcher or do things happen?

[ptatc]

Thanks very much for the explanation.

That is very interesting and I respect your professional opinion that he could have done some things to maybe prevent the severity of it.

I also like the fact you said he's far from alone in ignoring the problem cause at times the back feels better.

 

It's a shame.

Why do you think my friend at 30 needed simple back surgery and he wound up using a cane? Was the doc a butcher or do things happen?

 

Sorry, just had a person with a seizure in the lobby.

 

Some injuries do not respond to rehab well. Crede's case was one of slowly worsening due to cumulative variables. These usually respond very well with rehab. If it's a traumatic injury these don't always go as well.

 

No back surgeries are simple. They need to cut through many layers of muscle, fascia and bone to get to the disc. The variables with the recovery mostly depnd on how long a nerve was compressed and the eventual damage to the nerve. Just because he is using a cane now doesn't mean he always will. Nerves heal for up to 18 months after the compression is released. So there is always hope if he continues to do the wrok necessary. This is where most people fail.

 

There is always the possiblity that the surgeon messed up. It doesn't happen often but it does.

 

[fathom]

And I didn't know fathom was kidding. It sounded like a backhanded rip of Joe and it wasn't in green. I see no problem defending these guys even on a meaningless in the big scheme of things message board.

 

of course I was kidding...jeez

[jamesdiego]

I hate to post a Cowley link. But to me this sounds like JR finally stepped in and calmed things down.

 

Ozzie:

"I think we got to put everything on the side, continue to work with this ballclub,'' Guillen said of his professional relationship with Williams. "We have a job to do, and we got to respect our jobs. We have to

be professional with our job. We talk about it and we move forward. We have to move forward. You go backwards, and then you're not doing good for this organization. The only thing about this, our players don't even care about this. It's our job to move forward and to make this thing, I don't want to say happier, just make it what is was. How is it going to happen? We got to work on it.''

 

 

 

When asked about the distracting drama, he says it's helping the team. Thanks Oz! Joe of course agrees too. Thx Joe for all your reporting, you schmuck!

 

Ozzie:

"Not with us,'' Guillen replied, when asked if the off-the-field drama could be a distraction. "Maybe with another club. Not this club. I think we play better. We played better last 1½ weeks. But not at all. Very professional ballclub. Very easy-going guys. They don't care what happens off the field. Just perform. And I'm lucky. We're lucky to have the talent and kind of people we have because they could have made an excuse about the way they're playing.

"No, they don't care about that. They go out there and play the game. I control the stuff off the field.''

 

I just posted the link cause I have to, but don't click on it and give this jerk off any hits.

 

http://blogs.suntimes.com/whitesox/2010/06..._making_ni.html

[Lillian]

I've been thinking more about the question I raised earlier in this thread regarding the legitimacy of all of the "soap opera" like nonsense being reported.

If very little of this stuff appears in the soon to be aired MLB.Com, I might give it some credence. However, if this is all depicted and played up in the program , then I will be even more suspicious that a lot of it is being done as a publicity stunt.

That would especially be my reaction if the cameras captured a lot of it.

As I said, you would think that everyone would have tried to be on their best behavior, knowing that their words and actions might appear in the program. If the cameras were present and rolling, that should have provided a very strong motivation for Kenny, and Ozzie, as well as his wife and sons, to put their best foot forward.

 

It will be interesting to see exactly how this is all depicted, but not because of the soap opera drams, but because if just might provide insight into how real it is.

 

[jamesdiego]

^^ With how much damage they're doing to the White Sox name brand I find it highly unlikely. But I guess time will tell for sure. It's not like the White Sox need to improve the ratings of the show to get more money. Anyone know how much they're getting for the reality show anyways?

 

I really belive these guys hate each other right now. Guillen leaks to the Suntimes today that KW has learned the power of Guillen when Jerry refused to let Williams fire Ozzie. And then Williams tells the Trib that he has had a few long talks tih JR and it was reiterated that he has al the power "top to bottom". Too bad I don't have mlb network, this should be interesting.

[fathom]

No one watches MLB Network....it's been a huge bust in the ratings. No one will care about this show, so a "scripted" fight between KW and Ozzie makes no sense. Did anyone even watch the show last year about the Phillies bullpen? They didn't suggest that Chan Ho Park sleep with Scott Eyre's wife or anything like that.

[Lillian]

No one watches MLB Network....it's been a huge bust in the ratings. No one will care about this show, so a "scripted" fight between KW and Ozzie makes no sense. Did anyone even watch the show last year about the Phillies bullpen? They didn't suggest that Chan Ho Park sleep with Scott Eyre's wife or anything like that.

 

I didn't know that the ratings were so bad. Well, perhaps that's all the more reason for them to pull a publicity stunt.

[LVSoxFan]

Do we really believe that Jerry or KW or Ozzie would purposely cook up a fake drama in the middle of a baseball season to boost a... TV show that nobody's watching?

 

I find that a stretch.

[knightni]

Do we really believe that Jerry or KW or Ozzie would purposely cook up a fake drama in the middle of a baseball season to boost a... TV show that nobody's watching?

 

I find that a stretch.

It won't start until July 18.

[hi8is]

I thought that it started on July 4th?

[Lillian]

Do we really believe that Jerry or KW or Ozzie would purposely cook up a fake drama in the middle of a baseball season to boost a... TV show that nobody's watching?

 

I find that a stretch.

 

As absurd as it seems, to conclude otherwise is to suggest that this organization is being run by egomaniacs and idiots.

Either way, I'm completely disgusted with all them. How about you?

[witesoxfan]

As absurd as it seems, to conclude otherwise is to suggest that this organization is being run by egomaniacs and idiots.

Either way, I'm completely disgusted with all them. How about you?

 

Pretty sure you hit the nail squarely on the head.

Edited June 16, 2010 by witesoxfan