White Sox in win mode, not rebuild

[knightni]

They'll always be in "contend" mode as long as KW can't keep himself from trading prospects.

[chisoxt]

It all matters.

 

1 championship - only, what, 3 other AL teams have that?

 

2 playoff appearances, or 3 if you count 2000 - how many there? Not sure, probably less than half.

 

Wins? Probably still top 5.

 

Years in contention late in the season? All but one that I recall, maybe two. Probably only a few teams there.

 

Any way you look at it, the idea that this organization hasn't been successful under KW is hilarious to me. Do I want more? Of course I do! But let's have some perspective here.

 

LOL, yea, a 79 win season is the same as an 88 win season.

True. You cannot take away the championship from 2005. But when you get down to it, didn't he win that title with a core of players established by the previous GM? Granted, to complete the team Kenny made some wonderful moves, but there is some irony to the nature of those trades that made the 2005 team a world champion...whereas most of the meatheads love Kenny's 'Bold and Daring' trades, the basis of most of his successful moves then were smaller low risk high reward moves like picking up Jermaine Dye on the cheap, or sigining Bobby Jenks off of the scrap pile.

 

I wish that he would control his ego and follow that formula for success, as it pains me to watch him trade away promising oyung arms for expensive veterans.

[joeynach]

The title of this thread should be, white sox try to once again field a team good enough so that the organization draws enough so they dont operate in the red.

[Real]

LOL, yea, a 79 win season is the same as an 88 win season.

 

This isn't 2009, check your calender if you don't believe me.

[greg775]

You mean 2001 when KW took over? And yeah, caulfield likes to remind us plenty that we're in the top 5 or so in games won since then. Only numbers that matter for me are 2/10. Our playoff ratio in a division that doesn't feature the Yankees or Red Sox.

 

I'm really surprised we weren't able to dominate our division for years after winning the WS. I really thought we were "built" to do so.

Years later color me disappointed and surprised that it's the Twins that have the winning the division thing going for them more than us.

Of course a lot of people also thought the Bears would continue to roll after '85.

 

I like the reloading rather than rebuilding.

The article mentions our starting pitching staff. On paper ... it's awesome, phenomenal, etc. In reality it has to start dominating ... at least in divisional games.

Our great staff on paper sucks on many occasions.

Now that Thome flamed in the playoffs and we can calm down about this year's awful DH by committee demanded by Ozzie, maybe the team can rework that position and perhaps add some youth somewhere?

It's alarming Ozzie wants Omar back. If he comes back, Oz won't be able to resist making him the starter, not bench guy/tutor.

And Juan? Yeah on paper he had a B season, but are any of you excited about Juan?

 

The other scary thing is our team really had a good record this year. That's kind of scary cause we finished six back of Minnie and we were never in the wildcard hunt.

I guess we all can keep cheering and hoping. But the question marks remain huge as the Sox try to beat the playoff choking Twins and the 3 mediocres in our division.

 

Didn't you all think we'd be pretty dominant in the Central after winning the WS rather than getting beat down by the Twinks many seasons?

Edited October 13, 2010 by greg775

[hogan873]

I'm really surprised we weren't able to dominate our division for years after winning the WS. I really thought we were "built" to do so.

Years later color me disappointed and surprised that it's the Twins that have the winning the division thing going for them more than us.

Of course a lot of people also thought the Bears would continue to roll after '85.

 

I like the reloading rather than rebuilding.

The article mentions our starting pitching staff. On paper ... it's awesome, phenomenal, etc. In reality it has to start dominating ... at least in divisional games.

Our great staff on paper sucks on many occasions.

Now that Thome flamed in the playoffs and we can calm down about this year's awful DH by committee demanded by Ozzie, maybe the team can rework that position and perhaps add some youth somewhere?

It's alarming Ozzie wants Omar back. If he comes back, Oz won't be able to resist making him the starter, not bench guy/tutor.

And Juan? Yeah on paper he had a B season, but are any of you excited about Juan?

 

The other scary thing is our team really had a good record this year. That's kind of scary cause we finished six back of Minnie and we were never in the wildcard hunt.

I guess we all can keep cheering and hoping. But the question marks remain huge as the Sox try to beat the playoff choking Twins and the 3 mediocres in our division.

 

Didn't you all think we'd be pretty dominant in the Central after winning the WS rather than getting beat down by the Twinks many seasons?

I'm not too concerned about Omar coming back. He was a very valued addition this year, and he started so many games because Teahen got hurt. Maybe he still would've started a lot once they saw how bad Teahen's defense was. I hope that Morel is the starting 3rd baseman (and he should be unless the Sox made some sort of unexpected trade or signing), and Omar will be fine for filling in at 2nd, 3rd, and SS once or twice a week. But then what do they do with Teahen? RF? *shudder*

 

As far as Juan, I like him more than a lot of people on this board. I think he's overpaid, but some of his salary is paid by the Dodgers. He's a decent lead-off guy, and his defense was surprisingly good. He's not great, but he's what the Sox have for now.

[Balta1701]

The title of this thread should be, white sox try to once again field a team good enough so that the organization draws enough so they dont operate in the red.

You sound like that's a bad thing. Is it your opinion that you'd rather have the Sox put a high payroll team out there that wins 70 or fewer games on a regular basis so that the organization does operate in the red?

[NorthSideSox72]

Between the Teahen extension (he's an awful baseball player), going into the season with a deplorable DH combination and the Jackson/Hudson trade, I've lost all faith/confidence I once had in KW.

 

So, a guy with a 10 year track record, who has made a lot more good deals than bad... and the Teahen extension and Jackson/Hudson trade have caused you to lose all faith? I mean, I agree those were both bad deals, but I also think you are missing the bigger picture in your evaluation.

 

KW's biggest weakness, really, has been his inability to get the farm stronger. There has been some recent improvement in the drafts, but overall, the past 5 or more years, the Sox system has been terrible. And yet, the Sox are an above average organization in terms of success on the field. So its pretty damn obvious that Kenny must be doing better than the average GM (far better at aspects other than prospect development), since he's having to do this without a good farm system.

 

Seems to me, its not time to jump ship on Kenny, at least not yet. Because the odds are very good that whomever you get to replace him will be worse.

 

This isn't 2009, check your calender if you don't believe me.

 

Then I'm confused, why did you say this was 2009 part 2?

 

[southsider2k5]

I honestly think you can stick a fork in Flowers. At least as far as our organization is concerned. They weren't willing to deal him for two months of Dunn because they thought highly of him.

 

You've got that backwards. They wanted to send Flowers. Washington didn't want him.

[southsider2k5]

Between the Teahen extension (he's an awful baseball player), going into the season with a deplorable DH combination and the Jackson/Hudson trade, I've lost all faith/confidence I once had in KW.

 

As people are fond of pointing out, extensions and contract work are done by Rick Hahn.

[Thad Bosley]

But then what do they do with Teahen? RF? *shudder*

Teahen should only go to right field or any other of the so-called positions he can play when the primary bench player for that position cannot. In my view, Teahen is the 25th player on next year's roster, and only that because we're stuck with him due to that horrible contract extension. But under no circumstances should he be viewed or spoken about as a starting player any longer. I think we all saw last year (and KC fans the five years previous) that neither his bat and certainly not his glove deserve the nod as a starting player. That ship has sailed. So that puts him on the bench, and to me he's the guy who fills in at 3rd or 2nd when Omar is unable to do so for whatever reason, and in a corner outfield position when whoever the new 4th outfielder is not available. In other words, he becomes the Scott Linebrink of the position players. If it works out any differently, if they run him out there more often than that, then I think the Sox are worse off overall as a result.

[Balta1701]

Teahen should only go to right field or any other of the so-called positions he can play when the primary bench player for that position cannot. In my view, Teahen is the 25th player on next year's roster, and only that because we're stuck with him due to that horrible contract extension. But under no circumstances should he be viewed or spoken about as a starting player any longer. I think we all saw last year (and KC fans the five years previous) that neither his bat and certainly not his glove deserve the nod as a starting player. That ship has sailed. So that puts him on the bench, and to me he's the guy who fills in at 3rd or 2nd when Omar is unable to do so for whatever reason, and in a corner outfield position when whoever the new 4th outfielder is not available. In other words, he becomes the Scott Linebrink of the position players. If it works out any differently, if they run him out there more often than that, then I think the Sox are worse off overall as a result.

That's certainly the best way to do it with Teahen. However, there's one other way things could work. Hypothetically, lets' imagine a situation where the Sox make a large deal for a top flight player. Say, Quentin + someone else, and the return is an Adrian Gonzalez or a Prince Fielder. Suddenly we're sitting there with a vastly improved team, but we have a hole that we need to fill. If we fill it with a person who is just a warm body, overall the team has been upgraded. Teahen can be used in that way.

 

If you go into the season with the team as constructed right now, Teahen is a utility backup/platoon player with Quentin in RF and maybe Morel at 3b, but I'm not ruling anything out, as I expect this to be anything other than a boring offseason.

[GreatScott82]

That's certainly the best way to do it with Teahen. However, there's one other way things could work. Hypothetically, lets' imagine a situation where the Sox make a large deal for a top flight player. Say, Quentin + someone else, and the return is an Adrian Gonzalez or a Prince Fielder. Suddenly we're sitting there with a vastly improved team, but we have a hole that we need to fill. If we fill it with a person who is just a warm body, overall the team has been upgraded. Teahen can be used in that way.

 

If you go into the season with the team as constructed right now, Teahen is a utility backup/platoon player with Quentin in RF and maybe Morel at 3b, but I'm not ruling anything out, as I expect this to be anything other than a boring offseason.

I truly believe KW is going to go hard after A Gon this winter. With SD's GM stating that signing A Gon to a HUGE deal isn't very practical and KW stating that one of the teams first priorities is a stick from the left side- I can see some potential for a deal here.

[Balta1701]

I truly believe KW is going to go hard after A Gon this winter. With SD's GM stating that signing A Gon to a HUGE deal isn't very practical and KW stating that one of the teams first priorities is a stick from the left side- I can see some potential for a deal here.

A move for a guy like that depends entirely on what salary flexibity KW has. If he has room to increase significantly from last year, which frankly is possible (there's been a substantial cutback compared with a couple years ago already), then it's do-able if you assume that the player you get is marketable and will help put butts back in the seats. If he's under orders to cutback on spending...he won't land a guy like that and have him walk after 1 year.

[ThunderBolt]

I hope we go in for the kill. If the people in charge actually learn from their mistakes, then winning the division shouldn't be a problem. Let's stop experimenting with how to assemble a good baseball team, and make a good baseball team.

[Thad Bosley]

That's certainly the best way to do it with Teahen. However, there's one other way things could work. Hypothetically, lets' imagine a situation where the Sox make a large deal for a top flight player. Say, Quentin + someone else, and the return is an Adrian Gonzalez or a Prince Fielder. Suddenly we're sitting there with a vastly improved team, but we have a hole that we need to fill. If we fill it with a person who is just a warm body, overall the team has been upgraded. Teahen can be used in that way.

 

If you go into the season with the team as constructed right now, Teahen is a utility backup/platoon player with Quentin in RF and maybe Morel at 3b, but I'm not ruling anything out, as I expect this to be anything other than a boring offseason.

Your hypothetical is a good one, but don't be tempted to think Teahen can or should be the one to plug up a gap as a result of a deal for a top flight player. In this scenario, Alejandro De Aza starts in right field for me long before Teahen does. Why? Because at least he brings SOMETHING to the table. He's a good defensive player with good speed, a guy who can at least do a little damage on the bases when he gets on. My point all along with Teahen is that he doesn't bring ANYTHING to the table. Nothing! Terrible defense, strikes out a lot, doesn't have any power, no speed - in other words, what would tempt you to run this guy out there on anything remotely resembling a regular basis, even if you had a hole to contend with? Whether it's putting De Aza out there, or resigning Andruw Jones (that probably wouldn't be a bad platoon, De Aza/Jones, now that I think about it), but there have to be at least a hundred better options than running Teahen out there. Unfortunately for us, the guy just isn't a good baseball player. Period.

[ScottyDo]

To be honest, the failure at the end of the season felt exactly the same, just a little later. 88 wins looks respectable at the end of the year but they went on a ridiculous hot streak (against mostly weak NL teams, excluding 2 vs. the Braves), and we knew some time in August that this team was done. Then once they were in fact done, they won a bunch of games that didn't matter.

Had we done anything against our division this might've turned out different and left more margin for error, but we blew it harder than I've ever seen a team blow it and covered it up with some feel-good wins at the end of the season. The only real difference I see between the 79 win season and the 88 season is that in 2011 we probably won't draft a Chris Sale.

I don't think that's a fair characterization at all; if you remember, we went on like a 7-game losing streak once we were out of it, then won those games. I think 88 wins put us almost exactly at our talent level, which means we are a few moves away from serious contention.

 

Also, I happen to agree that you win every game you can. There's a culture to winning games, just like there's a culture to losing games. Ask the Cubs. You stay on the winning side if you can, even if it means a lower draft status. I'd MUCH rather be us in this decade than the Marlins, who won two world series in a shortish span but were uncompetitive the rest of the time, and are relatively uncompetitive now.

[chetkincaid]

A move for a guy like that depends entirely on what salary flexibity KW has. If he has room to increase significantly from last year, which frankly is possible (there's been a substantial cutback compared with a couple years ago already), then it's do-able if you assume that the player you get is marketable and will help put butts back in the seats. If he's under orders to cutback on spending...he won't land a guy like that and have him walk after 1 year.

 

 

But who would it take to get SD to deal A Gonzalez to the Sox? Would a starting pitcher and Viciedo do it?

 

I hear that they are looking for a lead off guy or a high OBP guy. I heard someone say that they were killed this year because A Gonzalez didn't have enough people on base in front of him.

Edited October 13, 2010 by Chet Kincaid

[Balta1701]

But who would it take to get SD to deal A Gonzalez to the Sox? Would a starting pitcher and Viciedo do it?

Frankly I have no idea. Not because I can't figure out the Padres' needs...but because I don't know the Padres' financial straits. They had a good year on the field and shed a lot of salary last year, but they're also looking at losing the guy for 2 picks in 1 season.

[Buehrlesque]

I truly believe KW is going to go hard after A Gon this winter. With SD's GM stating that signing A Gon to a HUGE deal isn't very practical and KW stating that one of the teams first priorities is a stick from the left side- I can see some potential for a deal here.

AGon is not going to happen this winter. The Sox don't have what it takes to get him anyway, unless Beckham or Sale is involved (and Sale can't even be traded yet). Coming off a winning year, I don't see the Padres moving him at all (unless they are truly blown away), until July 2011 when they are out of contention.

[LVSoxFan]

Hey I have nothing but respect for Vizquel after that performance this season. People forget but the moment he took over for Teahen is when the season turned around.

 

Coincidence? Maybe. But he's a great fielder and if you're going to have a veteran, he fits the bill.

[bigruss]

Hey I have nothing but respect for Vizquel after that performance this season. People forget but the moment he took over for Teahen is when the season turned around.

 

Coincidence? Maybe. But he's a great fielder and if you're going to have a veteran, he fits the bill.

I don't see Vizquel even matching his .673 OPS next year, and really think that Morel would be the best choice given cost, youth, and performance.

 

Thanks Vizquel for everything you did and brought but it's time to move on, put Lillibridge or someone of that ilk in that position and save some cash. As well as the Sox played with Vizquel at 3B, he was and is not the answer.

[Balta1701]

I don't see Vizquel even matching his .673 OPS next year, and really think that Morel would be the best choice given cost, youth, and performance.

 

Thanks Vizquel for everything you did and brought but it's time to move on, put Lillibridge or someone of that ilk in that position and save some cash. As well as the Sox played with Vizquel at 3B, he was and is not the answer.

Even if we assume Vizquel isn't going to match his .673 OPS next year...he was basically according to fangraphs a replacement level player this year. He's had 2 years in his recent career where he performed significantly worse than that, 2007 and 2008 in S.F. Both last year with the Rangers and this year with the Sox he gave approximately the same performance with the bats, and his numbers the last couple years were similar to his numbers from his mid 30's.

 

Between his versatility and ability to cover 3 defensive positions and the fact that he's probably going to be around replacement level with the bats, there's little reason not to bring him back, other than the fact that a crazed manager might try to make him a 150 game starter.

[Milkman delivers]

I don't see Vizquel even matching his .673 OPS next year, and really think that Morel would be the best choice given cost, youth, and performance.

 

Thanks Vizquel for everything you did and brought but it's time to move on, put Lillibridge or someone of that ilk in that position and save some cash. As well as the Sox played with Vizquel at 3B, he was and is not the answer.

 

You are choice?

[bigruss]

You are choice?

Wait what? I'm not seeing what you're trying to point out.