Sick of the negativity

[iamshack]

Absolutely, meanwhile KC and Detroit stack up their farm systems by going way over slot.

Hell, even Pittsburgh realized it can't compete by following the slot guidelines anymore.

[iamshack]

And it's brought them incredible success.

It has brought the Red Sox and Yankees success. And keep your eye on KC...it's about to start paying off down the road. It is the only real chance they have to succeed.

 

I'm not arguing that it is the ONLY reason the Sox do not have a strong development program. But I think it would certainly help us since we do not often have a very strong draft position.

 

Edit: Oh, and by the way, it may be the very reason Detroit has Miggy Cabrera.

Edited April 24, 2011 by iamshack

[fathom]

And it's brought them incredible success.

 

Yeah, having a good farm system is the primary way for the Sox to acquire Major League players via trade. Last year, it was much harder to make trades to improve our DH spot because of the lack of minor league depth. I know you know this, and I'm shocked that any Sox fan would think otherwise.

[bigruss]

Yeah, having a good farm system is the primary way for the Sox to acquire Major League players via trade. Last year, it was much harder to make trades to improve our DH spot because of the lack of minor league depth. I know you know this, and I'm shocked that any Sox fan would think otherwise.

I respect Balta, he usually is a great poster, but when it comes to someone saying the minors has an effect on the major league roster he just doesn't see it. Every single time he will post some response like that.

 

 

[iamshack]

I respect Balta, he usually is a great poster, but when it comes to someone saying the minors has an effect on the major league roster he just doesn't see it. Every single time he will post some response like that.

 

While in this particular instance I disagree with him, I think he has a point.

 

Almost everyone here seems to believe that there is no downside to dumping money and time/patience into player development. As if it's just a simple matter of the more you invest, the better the return. That simply is not the case, and yet no one seems willing to discuss it. There are all kinds of pitfalls involved in spending big dollars on high-profile prospects, whether they be a high attrtition rate, trying to determine which players to hold on to and which to move, the time spent trying to develop these players, including the opportunity costs involved, etc.

 

It simply is not an open and shut case.

 

While no one would argue that having a farm system full of elite talent is a bad thing, it's not just a matter of spending the money = elite, cost-controlled talent all across the diamond on your parent club.

 

Now I do agree with what Fathom pointed out, and I think the Red Sox are probably the best example of that philosophy. They're willing to trade just about any player in their system for proven talent. When they do bring up a homegrown player to the parent club, it's usually because there were no better options, not because they had some grand plan for that player.

 

I really wish we would pay over slot so we could more closely emulate that philosophy, not so I could watch Gordon Beckham alternate between the next Chase Utley and the next Bobby Hill.

[Marty34]

Like Ordonez, Carlos Lee, Tadahito Iguchi, Shingo Takatsu, Alexei Ramirez and Dayan Viciedo?

 

If there's ONE huge issue every Sox fan SHOULD have, it's with the Wilder/Dominican fiasco and the fact we haven't been able to get any prospects out of Venezuela when it's Ozzie's homeland. Nor, in the end, has Ozzie been able to use his connections to get any free agents here, other than maybe someone like Omar Vizquel. I guess you have to give Guillen SOME credit for being able to get the Freddy Garcia deal done, that's one occasion that can be cited.

 

Who's the last Dominican prospect we developed? Jesus Pena? And for Venezuela, Clevelan Santeliz? Pretty abysmal.

 

If Sale and Beckham both become stars, that's a huge improvement from the draft picks of 2000-2007. And certainly, we've never gotten involved in a "posting war" for one of the Japanese stars, but you could argue that unless you're the Red Sox or Yankees, doing so hasn't been so wise unless we're talking about a "once in a lifetime" player in his prime like Ichiro Suzuki.

 

I have a recurring nightmare that Kenny's involvement in recent 1st round picks combined with his love of football players playing baseball cost us Mike Trout two years ago.

Edited April 24, 2011 by Marty34

[Milkman delivers]

While in this particular instance I disagree with him, I think he has a point.

 

Almost everyone here seems to believe that there is no downside to dumping money and time/patience into player development. As if it's just a simple matter of the more you invest, the better the return. That simply is not the case, and yet no one seems willing to discuss it. There are all kinds of pitfalls involved in spending big dollars on high-profile prospects, whether they be a high attrtition rate, trying to determine which players to hold on to and which to move, the time spent trying to develop these players, including the opportunity costs involved, etc.

 

It simply is not an open and shut case.

 

While no one would argue that having a farm system full of elite talent is a bad thing, it's not just a matter of spending the money = elite, cost-controlled talent all across the diamond on your parent club.

 

Now I do agree with what Fathom pointed out, and I think the Red Sox are probably the best example of that philosophy. They're willing to trade just about any player in their system for proven talent. When they do bring up a homegrown player to the parent club, it's usually because there were no better options, not because they had some grand plan for that player.

 

I really wish we would pay over slot so we could more closely emulate that philosophy, not so I could watch Gordon Beckham alternate between the next Chase Utley and the next Bobby Hill.

 

[JorgeFabregas]

What's a hawkubes?

[103 mph screwball]

Sox fan with a cub fan mentality

Please don't use the "cub fan" insult lightly. Better to call someone an a-hole.

[BigSqwert]

What's a hawkubes?

Either Hawk's pubic hairs or some sort of 3D puzzle game for iPhones.

[southsider2k5]

Hell, even Pittsburgh realized it can't compete by following the slot guidelines anymore.

 

They look really competitive too...

[Balta1701]

I respect Balta, he usually is a great poster, but when it comes to someone saying the minors has an effect on the major league roster he just doesn't see it. Every single time he will post some response like that.

The minor leagues absolutely have an impact on the major league roster. But it's actually been remarkable how long we've been having this same talk...we've pretty much all agreed that the Sox have had among the worst minor league systems in baseball for at least 6-7 years, and yet, somehow we've still managed to stay competitive.

 

Meanwhile, the teams that go all-in on rebuilding...it's a huge gamble. A majority of those teams wind up stockpiling high draft picks and then sitting at the bottom of their divisions anyway.

 

Furthermore, teams like the Tigers spend huge amounts to grab guys like Andrew Miller, Cameron Maybin, Rick Porcello, and they wind up with bust after bust. The ONLY thing that worked for them was doing exactly what everyone here screams about KW doing...trading away guys rather than holding on to them. And then Hell, on top of that, one of their biggest pieces...Boesch...came out of ****ing no where.

 

The other examples people love to give...the Yankees, the Red Sox...of teams going over slot & such, well the Yankees had a disaster of a minor league system for years despite doing all that. About the only real, true example of a franchise doing what people want, succeeding in the draft non-stop right now, is the Red Sox...but they've also had a ton of supplemental picks to help their odds. And they had a friend in San Diego's GM help them out as well.

 

I think the draft is a crapshoot. It might be possible to sabotage yourself by deliberately drafting stupidly (i.e. the 2005-2006 White Sox picks), but even if you make the right picks, it's a crapshoot. The Red Sox are on a hotstreak right now, but that won't last. It's a gambler's hot streak. All the scouting in the world, all the going over slot...it's all trying to weight the die, and if it works, it never lasts.

[maggsmaggs]

The minor leagues absolutely have an impact on the major league roster. But it's actually been remarkable how long we've been having this same talk...we've pretty much all agreed that the Sox have had among the worst minor league systems in baseball for at least 6-7 years, and yet, somehow we've still managed to stay competitive.

 

Meanwhile, the teams that go all-in on rebuilding...it's a huge gamble. A majority of those teams wind up stockpiling high draft picks and then sitting at the bottom of their divisions anyway.

 

Furthermore, teams like the Tigers spend huge amounts to grab guys like Andrew Miller, Cameron Maybin, Rick Porcello, and they wind up with bust after bust. The ONLY thing that worked for them was doing exactly what everyone here screams about KW doing...trading away guys rather than holding on to them. And then Hell, on top of that, one of their biggest pieces...Boesch...came out of ****ing no where.

 

The other examples people love to give...the Yankees, the Red Sox...of teams going over slot & such, well the Yankees had a disaster of a minor league system for years despite doing all that. About the only real, true example of a franchise doing what people want, succeeding in the draft non-stop right now, is the Red Sox...but they've also had a ton of supplemental picks to help their odds. And they had a friend in San Diego's GM help them out as well.

 

I think the draft is a crapshoot. It might be possible to sabotage yourself by deliberately drafting stupidly (i.e. the 2005-2006 White Sox picks), but even if you make the right picks, it's a crapshoot. The Red Sox are on a hotstreak right now, but that won't last. It's a gambler's hot streak.

There is no doubt the draft is a crap shoot, you're right, but the Sox are doing themselves a disservice by not getting what they perceive as the best talent in the draft each and every year. Sale was definitely who they wanted. Probably the same with Beckham, Mitchell can be argued, but prior to that we got guys who were easy signs. McCulloch? Broadway? And before that, it was clearly a scouting problem in that we just couldn't develop the guys we drafted. In what other major sport, do teams not take the best talent available and rather choose for easy signs? Not the NBA. Not the NHL. And only very rarely in the NFL. The Sox aren't alone in this in MLB, but certainly staying away from slot guidelines will allow the Sox to take the best player available rather than the easy sign, which will inevitably set back our franchise's minor league system.

 

And the Sox are competitive, but not consistently. Since 2001 when KW took over:

2001: 83

2002: 81

2003: 86

2004: 83

2005: 99

2006: 90

2007: 72

2008: 89

2009: 79

2010: 88

2011: ??

 

So it depends on the definition of competitive. Do the Sox generally go into September with a chance to win the division? Probably, but only if everything goes right, and it never does.

 

But since 2006 when our system really started to suck, we have been off and on ever year. And we only are competitive in our division in some of those low- to mid 80s wins years because the division is weak and other teams can't spend anywhere near where we spend. I am just so sick of this pattern of good/bad, and even our "good" years the past decade is only relatively good (minus 2005 of course).

 

I am forever grateful that the Sox won in 2005 because we beat the Cubs there and it really allowed me to relax about baseball, and give two s***s if the Sox suck (like right now). I am just choosing not to watch. But in 2005, it was pretty much a fluke year. Everything went well. You look at our run differential, and we aren't a 99-win club.

Edited April 24, 2011 by maggsmaggs

[Balta1701]

There is no doubt the draft is a crap shoot, you're right, but the Sox are doing themselves a disservice by not getting what they perceive as the best talent in the draft each and every year. Sale was definitely who they wanted. Probably the same with Beckham, Mitchell can be argued, but prior to that we got guys who were easy signs. McCulloch? Broadway?

You'll note I granted 2005-2006 as mistakes...but I don't think it was as much easy signs as it was the Sox looking for guys who could either rapidly contribute a little or could be traded very quickly, rather than BPA.

[maggsmaggs]

You'll note I granted 2005-2006 as mistakes...but I don't think it was as much easy signs as it was the Sox looking for guys who could either rapidly contribute a little or could be traded very quickly, rather than BPA.

My reading is selective in the morning, ha. But if you are correct in that thinking (which you probably are, that makes good sense), then the Sox have an even more horrible philosophy than I thought. You always gotta take BPA regardless of cost, especially in baseball, that's how your become a winner.

Edited April 24, 2011 by maggsmaggs

[Balta1701]

My reading is selective in the morning, ha. But if you are correct in that thinking (which you probably are, that makes good sense), then the Sox have an even more horrible philosophy than I thought. You always gotta take BPA regardless of cost, especially in baseball, that's how your become a winner.

What you've got to realize is that in any draft, there's probably 5-6 different guys who could be considered "Best player available" regardless of where you're picking, 2-3 of those guys are going to be busts, and there's little to no correlation between how good they are and how much money they're asking for.

 

If you're not taking one of the guys who could legitimately be considered one of the best players available (see, the 2005-2006 sox drafts) then you're making a mistake, but it's such a crapshoot that as long as you pick one of the guys you think is the best available, you're doing what you can.

[Paint it Black]

The Sox are only in it every year because they have the most resources in the division (their payroll). It really has nothing to do with KW; it's actually the opposite. KW is the reason we have this ceiling where we are in it almost every year, but not winning it.

 

For all the good trades KW has made, he and this organization has drafted horrendously and developed players horrifically.

 

The Sox will never be a consistent winner with KW because the Sox don't draft and develop. Unless you can spend like the Yankees and Red Sox, you need to draft and develop well. And actually the Sawks and Yankees do draft and develop well. It's also boggles my mind that the Sox are willing to spend so much on payroll yet they consistently neglect spending on foreign free agents and the draft.

 

 

I completely agree on the drafting and developing. HOWEVER, I'm not sure it's all the fault of KW. I mean, it's not his money he is spending. Rather, it's Reinsdorf money and he might not want to spend the money on the draft (they have not spent a lot of the draft for years). It's hard to bring in talent through the draft when you don't want to spend top dollar on it.

[caulfield12]

Or maybe it's the $15 million they spent on Borchard and Viciedo with not much to show for it so far...

[bigruss]

I completely agree on the drafting and developing. HOWEVER, I'm not sure it's all the fault of KW. I mean, it's not his money he is spending. Rather, it's Reinsdorf money and he might not want to spend the money on the draft (they have not spent a lot of the draft for years). It's hard to bring in talent through the draft when you don't want to spend top dollar on it.

It's possible, the Twins don't spend a ton on draft bonuses but they tend to produce a good farm system, but it is muchhh harder if you're not willing to spend. Much like the payrolls of the MLB teams, it becomes easier with a bigger budget, but doesn't guarantee success.

 

Or maybe it's the $15 million they spent on Borchard and Viciedo with not much to show for it so far...

Borchard was a stretch, and the jury is out on Viciedo still. That doesn't mean it should deter the team from making solid signings in the future. If KW loses a few trades should he stop trading?? If that was the case, he should've stopped trading since 2009.

 

[bigruss]

What you've got to realize is that in any draft, there's probably 5-6 different guys who could be considered "Best player available" regardless of where you're picking, 2-3 of those guys are going to be busts, and there's little to no correlation between how good they are and how much money they're asking for.

 

If you're not taking one of the guys who could legitimately be considered one of the best players available (see, the 2005-2006 sox drafts) then you're making a mistake, but it's such a crapshoot that as long as you pick one of the guys you think is the best available, you're doing what you can.

It's a crapshoot, but that's why you try and give yourself the best chances possible by going overslot if need be, and not having wasted picks.

[greg775]

If you are sick of the negativity, get ready for apathy.

 

This kind of record and the team is heading to New York to lose a minimum of 3, possibly four more??

Wow this team has done what is impossible to do. Be irrelevant in one month.

[maggsmaggs]

If you are sick of the negativity, get ready for apathy.

 

This kind of record and the team is heading to New York to lose a minimum of 3, possibly four more??

Wow this team has done what is impossible to do. Be irrelevant in one month.

Yeah, s*** is about to hit the fan. The Sox are already down attendance-wise this year in April. Add how bad they are playing, no one is gonna show up in May, June, etc. When JR realizes that the attendance figures are gonna put him in the red this year, big names will start to go -- if they can even be traded. I don't know who would even take Peavy, Rios (with that money), etc.

Edited April 24, 2011 by maggsmaggs

[witesoxfan]

I have a recurring nightmare that Kenny's involvement in recent 1st round picks combined with his love of football players playing baseball cost us Mike Trout two years ago.

 

OK I'm trying to goof around here today but just stumbled upon this gem...what a load of s***.

 

If you knew that Mike Trout was going to be this good when the draft was going on, you'd be in a front office somewhere. Nobody knows jacks*** about anything. People really wanted Cesar Carillo too, and he's f***ing cabbage at this point. Jared Mitchell is still an extremely talented player and could develop into a fantastic leadoff or #2 hitter down the road. Or he could bust, just like Mike Trout still could too. Or Mike Trout may have busted in the White Sox system already while Mitchell flourished in Anaheim's. Coaching is a huge factor in these players' developments, especially at this early of an age, and we have no idea if Trout would have taken to the Sox coaches' teachings as well as he has the Angels'.

 

Nobody knows something like that in advance, and suggesting you did otherwise, especially about something as unpredictable as the draft, is a goddamn joke.

[Marty34]

OK I'm trying to goof around here today but just stumbled upon this gem...what a load of s***.

 

If you knew that Mike Trout was going to be this good when the draft was going on, you'd be in a front office somewhere. Nobody knows jacks*** about anything. People really wanted Cesar Carillo too, and he's f***ing cabbage at this point. Jared Mitchell is still an extremely talented player and could develop into a fantastic leadoff or #2 hitter down the road. Or he could bust, just like Mike Trout still could too. Or Mike Trout may have busted in the White Sox system already while Mitchell flourished in Anaheim's. Coaching is a huge factor in these players' developments, especially at this early of an age, and we have no idea if Trout would have taken to the Sox coaches' teachings as well as he has the Angels'.

 

Nobody knows something like that in advance, and suggesting you did otherwise, especially about something as unpredictable as the draft, is a goddamn joke.

 

Where did I suggest I knew anything about the draft? Do I expect KW or someone in the Sox FO to be decent scouts? Yes I do. You're damn right I do. What's troubling about your post though is that you don't see a problem at all with the organization taking Mitchell ahead of Trout.

[Balta1701]

Where did I suggest I knew anything about the draft? Do I expect KW or someone in the Sox FO to be decent scouts? Yes I do. You're damn right I do. What's troubling about your post though is that you don't see a problem at all with the organization taking Mitchell ahead of Trout.

The only reaction on this board to the Angels taking Trout was "hmph, the Angels sure like outfielders, don't they?" The majority in the draft thread seemed to want Rex Brothers, hard throwing lefty who went to Colorado a few picks later and has been in their minor league bullpens from day 1 of entering that org. Here's the thread. Not one person here complained about the Sox passing on Trout.