Cooper and/or Ozzie status could affect MB coming back next year

[Marty34]

I mean sure, but what do you expect to get back for him?

 

We have nobody in our system that can fill his role immediately and play as well. So unless you can get a good SS back + pitching prospects, trading him would be a bad idea.

 

You're not going to get pitching prospects + a good SS back. Find a stopgap for a couple years a la Ramon Santiago who is a free-agent. Or maybe try Lillibridge there again.

[Jordan4life_2007]

You're not going to get pitching prospects + a good SS back. Find a stopgap for a couple years a la Ramon Santiago who is a free-agent. Or maybe try Lillibridge there again.

 

You sign a stopgap when you have somebody on the cusp of breaking though in 1-2 years. There are no Manny Machado's, Jurickson Profar's, or Hak-Ju Lee's in our system. Lillibridge? Wow. You really don't think much of the SS position.

[Marty34]

You sign a stopgap when you have somebody on the cusp of breaking though in 1-2 years.

 

. . . Or you sign a stopgap when that is all you an afford. (Tyler Saldino is an interesting SS prospect at Winston-Salem.)

 

Lillibridge? Wow. You really don't think much of the SS position.

 

AJ, Peavy, and Ohman are off the books after next year. My idea would have the payroll at about $75M at that point. The goal would be to have Peavy (and Ohman) be replaced internally and have money to replace AJ and maybe fill some other holes with the payroll decreasing from $100M in 2012 to roughly $90M in 2013.

[Jordan4life_2007]

. . . Or you sign a stopgap when that is all you an afford. (Tyler Saldino is an interesting SS prospect at Winston-Salem.)

 

Or you just keep your top 3 SS in the AL. Saldino is nowhere near big-league ready.

 

 

AJ, Peavy, and Ohman are off the books after next year. My idea would have the payroll at about $75M at that point. The goal would be to have Peavy (and Ohman) be replaced internally and have money to replace AJ and maybe fill some other holes with the payroll decreasing from $100M in 2012 to roughly $90M in 2013.

 

Internally with whom? You're creating quite a few holes with little change to spend.

[Rowand44]

Worry about SS later. That pitching staff is a ticking time bomb.

Worry about ss later? Really?!?!?!?

 

Just worry about one of the most important positions on the field later when you have one of the top 3 ss's in the American League. Makes a ton of sense.

[Jordan4life_2007]

Worry about ss later? Really?!?!?!?

 

Just worry about one of the most important positions on the field later when you have one of the top 3 ss's in the American League. Makes a ton of sense.

 

I'd be with him if we had somebody on the cusp. Think Rangers with Andrus/Profar. Something's going to have to give there.

[Marty34]

Or you just keep your top 3 SS in the AL. Saldino is nowhere near big-league ready.

 

Why keep a top 3 SS when the pitching is falling apart. If Saldino has another solid year next year, no reason he isn't up here by mid-2013.

 

Internally with whom? You're creating quite a few holes with little change to spend.

 

Replace Peavy internally with one of the arms you get in return for the players traded.

Edited September 18, 2011 by Marty34

[Jordan4life_2007]

Why keep a top 3 SS when the pitching is falling apart. If Saldino has another solid year next year, no reason he isn't up here by mid-2013.

 

 

 

Replace Peavy internally with one of the arms you get in return for the players traded.

 

Well, there's really no point in arguing, as we obviously have no clue who these potential arms would be. We do know that Ramirez is a proven commodity at a premium position making a measly $6 million per the next couple years. You're creating an absolute best-case scenario regarding Saladino. No way you trade Ramirez based off that.

[SI1020]

Wow excuse me black jack, Alex Fernandez, Floyd bannister, Joel horlen, Gary peters, Ed Walsh.....

Billy Pierce is better than all of them. Ted Lyons too. Ed Walsh was one of the best in the early years of the 20th Century. One thing the Sox have had in their not so great history is pitching.

 

[SI1020]

Let's keep Ozzie, Cooper and Mark Buerhle.

Let's not.

 

[Soxfest]

Let's not.

2nd that!

[caulfield12]

I'm not getting what the point is with Marty trying to tear the entire team apart.

 

So we can play the likes of Escobar and Saladino in the future? In order to set the record for lowest attendance/lowest payroll/highest payroll efficiency in the AL?

 

Sure, our payroll was only $65 million or so when we won in 2005, but that was a long time ago economically.

 

As long as the Tigers are spending the way they are, that means with have to be 2-3X as good with our minor league development system. If the Tigers are spending twice as much, there's simply no margin for error.

 

All of those trades (especially Santos, Danks and Alexei Ramirez) have to break perfectly for the Sox, like Danks/McCarthy, Quentin/Carter, Floyd/Garcia.

 

At this point, we're not going to get anything close to a Top 30-50 minor league prospect for Quentin.

 

But discounting the reality of how hard it is to find a reliable closer and how hard it would be to replace Ramirez...well, it sounds more like Marty is an accountant for JR rather than a baseball fan. And, in actuality, an accountant would know you have to spend money to make money. Why trading away Ramirez/Santos/Quentin/Floyd/Danks BUT keeping Mark Buehrle is going to do anything for our record or attendance, I have no idea.

 

And it's not like the Indians or Royals can't threaten to come up and bite us, either. For now, with Morneau/Span potentially never playing again, the Twins can't be the primary concern.

 

 

[gatnom]

Despite his irrational fears about the rotation, I don't think Marty is all that off in his desire to break apart the team, including Alexei. If whoever is GM after this season plans to reduce payroll to where it was or rebuild, he would absolutely have to look at trading Quentin, Danks, Floyd, Thornton, and Ramirez, and he would most likely have to trade at least 2-4 of them depending on who was traded and on what he decides to do with Buehrle. Depending on the market, you might be able to get the most return out of Ramirez. Trading Sergio right now, on the other hand, makes absolutely no sense because he is exactly the type of player we need right now to keep payroll low, even if he isn't exactly Mariano Rivera.

 

The way I see it is that we are going into next season with holes, regardless of whether or not we decide to "rebuild." With most of our players getting raises, we are going to have to either raise payroll or cut ties with some to keep payroll down. I think the sooner we accept the fact that we need to rebuild at least somewhat, the better off we are. Trying to win again next year without increasing payroll is just delaying the inevitable.

 

 

 

 

[Marty34]

I'm not getting what the point is with Marty trying to tear the entire team apart.

 

It's not good enough to win a World Series and it has maxed out the payroll.

[Marty34]

Despite his irrational fears about the rotation, I don't think Marty is all that off in his desire to break apart the team, including Alexei. If whoever is GM after this season plans to reduce payroll to where it was or rebuild, he would absolutely have to look at trading Quentin, Danks, Floyd, Thornton, and Ramirez, and he would most likely have to trade at least 2-4 of them depending on who was traded and on what he decides to do with Buehrle. Depending on the market, you might be able to get the most return out of Ramirez. Trading Sergio right now, on the other hand, makes absolutely no sense because he is exactly the type of player we need right now to keep payroll low, even if he isn't exactly Mariano Rivera

 

I don't think Santos' shelf life will be all that long. Let's see what we can get for him. Appreciate the support for breaking the team up!

[caulfield12]

I don't think Santos' shelf life will be all that long. Let's see what we can get for him. Appreciate the support for breaking the team up!

 

 

This theory on Santos is based on what? A hunch?

 

Having one of the best sliders of any reliever? A consistent mid 90's fastball? The fact that as someone who's only been a pitcher for about 3 years, he's already maxed out his ability?

 

Or you're extrapolating based entirely on his recent blown saves against the Tigers? That he's going to fall apart as a closer eventually, that he's not mentally strong or tough enough?

 

Do you really want Addison Reed as the closer for 2012?

 

And then what happens when we get off to a similar start as 2011 when Thornton was the closer? We just sell off the entire team before mid-season and drive down the attendance to 1.2 million?

 

Is this based on your idea that Reinsdorf was going to get paid for 2 million in attendance no matter what he spends on payroll...even if it was $50-65 million?

Edited September 19, 2011 by caulfield12

[Marty34]

This theory on Santos is based on what? A hunch?

 

Having one of the best sliders of any reliever? A consistent mid 90's fastball? The fact that as someone who's only been a pitcher for about 3 years, he's already maxed out his ability?

 

Or you're extrapolating based entirely on his recent blown saves against the Tigers? That he's going to fall apart as a closer eventually, that he's not mentally strong or tough enough?

 

Do you really want Addison Reed as the closer for 2012?

 

And then what happens when we get off to a similar start as 2011 when Thornton was the closer? We just sell off the entire team before mid-season and drive down the attendance to 1.2 million?

 

Is this based on your idea that Reinsdorf was going to get paid for 2 million in attendance no matter what he spends on payroll...even if it was $50-65 million?

 

Too many sliders is my feeling on Santos. I get the feeling you want to keep this team together.

[southsider2k5]

I'm not getting what the point is with Marty trying to tear the entire team apart.

 

So we can play the likes of Escobar and Saladino in the future? In order to set the record for lowest attendance/lowest payroll/highest payroll efficiency in the AL?

 

Sure, our payroll was only $65 million or so when we won in 2005, but that was a long time ago economically.

 

As long as the Tigers are spending the way they are, that means with have to be 2-3X as good with our minor league development system. If the Tigers are spending twice as much, there's simply no margin for error.

 

All of those trades (especially Santos, Danks and Alexei Ramirez) have to break perfectly for the Sox, like Danks/McCarthy, Quentin/Carter, Floyd/Garcia.

 

At this point, we're not going to get anything close to a Top 30-50 minor league prospect for Quentin.

 

But discounting the reality of how hard it is to find a reliable closer and how hard it would be to replace Ramirez...well, it sounds more like Marty is an accountant for JR rather than a baseball fan. And, in actuality, an accountant would know you have to spend money to make money. Why trading away Ramirez/Santos/Quentin/Floyd/Danks BUT keeping Mark Buehrle is going to do anything for our record or attendance, I have no idea.

 

And it's not like the Indians or Royals can't threaten to come up and bite us, either. For now, with Morneau/Span potentially never playing again, the Twins can't be the primary concern.

 

If you are selling Alexei, you aren't looking at 2013, you are looking at 2016.

 

[Marty34]

If you are selling Alexei, you aren't looking at 2013, you are looking at 2016.

 

If you keep Alexei it will be longer.

[southsider2k5]

If you keep Alexei it will be longer.

 

Why? The guy is on a bargain contract for years.

[caulfield12]

Too many sliders is my feeling on Santos. I get the feeling you want to keep this team together.

 

 

Of course not, that's silly.

 

But, unlike in the world of fantasy leagues, it's not easy to just get rid or Dunn and Rios.

 

Peavy's not a great concern, seems that he would be the least of our problems in 2012.

 

If we got replacement or above replacement level offensive numbers from Dunn and Rios, we would have been in a decent position to compete even with Beckham falling off a cliff offensively.

 

If nothing else, you're arguing against the decision KW made in 2007, which was to keep Buehrle/Thome/Dye, etc., and move forward instead of tearing that team apart.

 

Are we really worse off than we were heading into 2008? How so?

 

This approach in 2007 would have prevented 2008 from ever happening...and, if Quentin hadn't gotten hurt, you can make a legit argument we could have gone much deeper into the playoffs, especially if we could have bypassed Javy and not gone down to Game 163.

 

 

[Marty34]

Why? The guy is on a bargain contract for years.

 

Because he is the rarest of White Sox players these days. He's one you might be able to get something decent in return for.

 

[southsider2k5]

Because he is the rarest of White Sox players these days. He's one you might be able to get something decent in return for.

 

That logic is astounding. Trade a certainty with a good contract, for a bunch of unknowns, who in all odds won't add up to anything nearly as good as we have. I think you have a future with the Pittsburgh Pirates.

[Marty34]

Of course not, that's silly.

 

But, unlike in the world of fantasy leagues, it's not easy to just get rid or Dunn and Rios.

 

Peavy's not a great concern, seems that he would be the least of our problems in 2012.

 

If we got replacement or above replacement level offensive numbers from Dunn and Rios, we would have been in a decent position to compete even with Beckham falling off a cliff offensively.

 

If nothing else, you're arguing against the decision KW made in 2007, which was to keep Buehrle/Thome/Dye, etc., and move forward instead of tearing that team apart.

 

Are we really worse off than we were heading into 2008? How so?

 

This approach in 2007 would have prevented 2008 from ever happening...and, if Quentin hadn't gotten hurt, you can make a legit argument we could have gone much deeper into the playoffs, especially if we could have bypassed Javy and not gone down to Game 163.

 

2008 is the start of where we are today. Our reward was 1 post-season win.

[Marty34]

That logic is astounding. Trade a certainty with a good contract, for a bunch of unknowns, who in all odds won't add up to anything nearly as good as we have. I think you have a future with the Pittsburgh Pirates.

 

You must have Ramirez confused with a Hall of Famer.