Viciedo Not Worth The Wait

[caulfield12]

We have Jake Peavy, and he's a former Cy Young winner and paid like one, so we should trade every young player we have to compete this year. And then we'll lose him after this year, in which case Marty34 might acknowledge we're NOT in win-now mode any longer because our rotation no longer says we're competitive because it has Molina in it.

 

And if Molina fails, that means KW should lose his job now.

 

But putting Molina in the rotation will cause us to struggle for a couple of seasons, so we can't do that. So fire KW again because we don't have any major league-ready starters.

[iamshack]

We have Jake Peavy, and he's a former Cy Young winner and paid like one, so we should trade every young player we have to compete this year. And then we'll lose him after this year, in which case Marty34 might acknowledge we're NOT in win-now mode any longer because our rotation no longer says we're competitive because it has Molina in it.

 

And if Molina fails, that means KW should lose his job now.

 

But putting Molina in the rotation will cause us to struggle for a couple of seasons, so we can't do that. So fire KW again because we don't have any major league-ready starters.

You've said this in like three different ways now...

 

Can you either legitimately attempt to participate in an honest discussion about it or just stay out of it?

 

[Dick Allen]

We have Jake Peavy, and he's a former Cy Young winner and paid like one, so we should trade every young player we have to compete this year. And then we'll lose him after this year, in which case Marty34 might acknowledge we're NOT in win-now mode any longer because our rotation no longer says we're competitive because it has Molina in it.

 

And if Molina fails, that means KW should lose his job now.

 

But putting Molina in the rotation will cause us to struggle for a couple of seasons, so we can't do that. So fire KW again because we don't have any major league-ready starters.

I believe Joe or Marty wanted a total rebuild, yet he can't take a young guy struggling for a couple of weeks before he wants him out.

 

If people want to trade Viciedo fine, but these people say he won't develop into much and also think he'll bring a decent return. If anyone thinks he sucks, why wouldn't they think every other team thinks he sucks?

[southsider2k5]

You've said this in like three different ways now...

 

Can you either legitimately attempt to participate in an honest discussion about it or just stay out of it?

 

Just because you don't like it, doesn't mean he isn't allowed to post it. Marty has posted this same thread in many different times and places, why aren't you yelling at him too?

[caulfield12]

I'm sure we could find numerous 10-15 game runs where Frank Thomas hit 0.150, had a "slider speed" bat, was popping everything up to 1B or RF and looked like a candidate for the waiver wire too.

 

OBVIOUSLY, Viciedo won't be THAT good, but c'mon, this is ridiculous.

 

If the White Sox actually let Dayan play at the major league level in June when he's 100% ready for bigs, confident and healthy...we wouldn't be going through this period right now with him, but Ozzie didn't want to play him since he was KW's stud prospect and letting Dunn and Pierre flail away all year long suited his agenda much more than anything which would have actually helped the team win last season when they needed a boost in the middle of the year without having the luxury of trading more prospects (non-existence) for young hitting. Ooops, we had the best young hitter in AAA and chose not to use him.

 

And Viciedo's 2010 play with the White Sox at age 21 or 22 proves that he was just a fluke and sucks because...well, every minor league hitter KW's brought up has sucked, so why would Dayan be an exception?

 

 

[Bubba Philips]

These...

 

 

 

 

 

Viciedo had adjustment periods at two levels in the minors as well. Give the man a chance. You can't develop young talent by giving them three weeks as a starter and then throwing in the towel. Total absurdity.

I believe last year at charlotte he was struggling before he got his stroke.

[Bubba Philips]

These...

 

 

 

 

 

Viciedo had adjustment periods at two levels in the minors as well. Give the man a chance. You can't develop young talent by giving them three weeks as a starter and then throwing in the towel. Total absurdity.

I believe last year at charlotte he was struggling before he got his stroke.

[Balta1701]

I believe Joe or Marty wanted a total rebuild, yet he can't take a young guy struggling for a couple of weeks before he wants him out.

 

If people want to trade Viciedo fine, but these people say he won't develop into much and also think he'll bring a decent return. If anyone thinks he sucks, why wouldn't they think every other team thinks he sucks?

All Joe/Marty wants is to come up with a standard that requires KW to be fired ASAP. He can't accept any notion that we're rebuilding because that would give the team a reason to hold onto the GM to see how the rebuilding process must go. He can't tolerate having Viciedo, Beckham, Morel, Sale, and >50% of the bullpen actually being given time to develop, because that means you'd have to evaluate the GM a couple years down the road when they're approaching their peak years.

[Balta1701]

I believe last year at charlotte he was struggling before he got his stroke.

He's struggled in April every year. Last year was a particular year because he also was recovering from an injury to start the year.

[iamshack]

Just because you don't like it, doesn't mean he isn't allowed to post it. Marty has posted this same thread in many different times and places, why aren't you yelling at him too?

Because Marty is actually trying to start a legitimate discussion.

 

Caufield is seeking to chill this discussion with his sarcastic condescension of the topic...three times.

[fathom]

I believe last year at charlotte he was struggling before he got his stroke.

 

Sad to hear, but it looks like he's made a nice recovery.

[elrockinMT]

I don't believe Viciedo will be worth the wait, too many holes in his swing without much development of patience. At best I see him as a 5-6-7 hitter, not the dynamic 3-hitter we had hoped. I think it'd be a good move to deal him before his value drops further (see Beckham).

 

 

I hope he can find it soon but so far he has not been what I was expecting from all the hype. He is young and developing. But, for certain I think alot of people here including me were caught up in all the "Cuban Hype" and thought we had really scored. Now with Alexei Ramirez we did for sure. As far as Dayan is concerned I guess Cuban talent can fail just like any other young draftee. Look at Joe Borchard. Once again though I hope he finds it and shows us the ability and talent that so impressed the scouts and upper brass and excited us fans

Edited April 26, 2012 by elrockinMT

[fathom]

We all knew Viciedo would likely struggle out of the gate. Comparisons to Vlad were always unrealistic, as we're comparing one of the best hitters in the last 25 years of baseball to someone who was never a top 25 prospect. Viciedo's done a very good job defensively so far this year, and there's a big difference between him struggling in the majors and getting a chance to get out of his slump as compared to Santiago and Stewart (two guys that still need to prove they can be good minor league players).

[southsider2k5]

Because Marty is actually trying to start a legitimate discussion.

 

Caufield is seeking to chill this discussion with his sarcastic condescension of the topic...three times.

 

Sure, because you agree with the underlying premise. It also easy to see this as the continued condescension of Kenny Williams that we have seen in many other threads.

 

If you are going to start a topic that a lot of people aren't going to agree with, don't be surprised when they disagree in kind.

[elrockinMT]

He's struggled in April every year. Last year was a particular year because he also was recovering from an injury to start the year.

 

 

And that is a legitimate excuse. May players do struggle early in a season so I don't want to be giivng up on tghe kid so early.

[caulfield12]

You've said this in like three different ways now...

 

Can you either legitimately attempt to participate in an honest discussion about it or just stay out of it?

 

 

Have you heard of someone who has an "in between bat" before?

 

Have you noticed him lunging and jamming himself?

 

Have you seen him hitting at the major league or minor league level last year when he was going good?

 

The ball just jumps off his bat. So, at age 23, he's simply lost the ability to hit?

 

His bat speed's suspect?

 

Nonsense.

 

Viciedo's fishing for pitches outside of the zone and not laying off high fastballs. He's also striking out on offspeed pitches, usually balls on the outside part of the plate.

 

If you believe he won't ever get that fixed, then there's ZERO ZERO ZERO hope for Beckham and Morel, so we might as well trade them, too.

 

Because we've only given Beckham 3+ years to find himself....but less than one month of at-bats (he's not even qualified for any league leader stats) allows us all to play Billy Beane or KW?

 

Beckham, Morel and Viciedo are all showing signs of the same problem.

 

They're late on the fastball, and out front or pulling off the offspeed stuff. They're off balance and out of rhythm, and get behind in counts quickly, just like Dunn did 90% of the time last year. When down to 2 strikes, they're expanding the zone and not eliminating the opposing pitcher's best pitch (usually a fastball), so they're either way behind on high fastballs or swinging hopelessly at outside breaking balls ala Juan Uribe or Alexei Ramirez when they're going bad.

 

 

[iamshack]

Sure, because you agree with the underlying premise. It also easy to see this as the continued condescension of Kenny Williams that we have seen in many other threads.

 

If you are going to start a topic that a lot of people aren't going to agree with, don't be surprised when they disagree in kind.

I don't think any of us have an issue with anyone disagreeing. Disagree all you want.

 

What I am pointing out is the questioning of whether it is worthy to debate or not, and the claims that it was only raised because we lost the game yesterday.

[Balta1701]

I hope he can find it soon but so far he has not been what I was expecting from all the hype. He is young and developing. But, for certain I think alot of people here including me were caught up in all the "Cuban Hype" and thought we had really scored. Now with Alexei Ramirez we did for sure. As far as Dayan is concerned I guess Cuban talent can fail just like any other young draftee. Look at Joe Borchard. Once again though I hope he finds it and shows us the ability and talent that so impressed the scouts and upper brass and excited us fans

This is exactly what I was expecting from him and I believe I said so more than a few times this offseason. Furthermore, my biggest fear coming inot the season was that guys like Viciedo, Morel, Beckham, woudl start off slowly and then we'd rapidly see the normal White Sox "Bench him for player X" move. Thankfully, that has not happened yet.

[iamshack]

Have you heard of someone who has an "in between bat" before?

 

Have you noticed him lunging and jamming himself?

 

Have you seen him hitting at the major league or minor league level last year when he was going good?

 

The ball just jumps off his bat. So, at age 23, he's simply lost the ability to hit?

 

His bat speed's suspect?

 

Nonsense.

 

Viciedo's fishing for pitches outside of the zone and not laying off high fastballs. He's also striking out on offspeed pitches, usually balls on the outside part of the plate.

 

If you believe he won't ever get that fixed, then there's ZERO ZERO ZERO hope for Beckham and Morel, so we might as well trade them, too.

Because we've only given Beckham 3+ years to find himself....but less than one month of at-bats (he's not even qualified for any league leader stats) allows us all to play Billy Beane or KW?

 

Beckham, Morel and Viciedo are all showing signs of the same problem.

 

They're late on the fastball, and out front or pulling off the offspeed stuff. They're off balance and out of rhythm, and get behind in counts quickly, just like Dunn did 90% of the time last year. When down to 2 strikes, they're expanding the zone and not eliminating the opposing pitcher's best pitch (usually a fastball), so they're either way behind on high fastballs or swinging hopelessly at outside breaking balls ala Juan Uribe or Alexei Ramirez when they're going bad.

Well, considering I suggested trading Morel along with him in my very first post in the thread, that might give you an indication. The fact that I also compared him to Juan Uribe might give you additional input as to how I feel.

 

I see Viciedo as a guy who will always swing at too many high fastballs, will always flail away at pitches off the plate, and will always go in and out of funks and hot streaks. It's what I see, and I think he has more value now, before everyone else believes that, than what he will have in 2-3 years.

 

Thus, I would move him.

 

If we could play Lillibridge in LF or CF even, and acquire a nice 3b bat using Viciedo and Morel or others, I'd be perfectly content.

[caulfield12]

But what's the point?

 

Viciedo's value is not much higher around baseball AT THIS EXACT MOMENT than Gordon Beckham or Brent Morel.

 

He was never a consensus Top 25 player, like a Brandon Wood. Did you notice how badly Mike Moustakas looked with the Royals for MOST of his rookie season?

 

 

We should have this debate about Viciedo every game he struggles...?

 

We don't have a single hitter in the minors under age 25 capable of putting up the numbers Dayan could put up.

 

We're not going to be able to trade Dayan for Carlos Quentin 2 because young hitters like that are being WAY overvalued by opposing GM's.

 

Just look at the crazy bidding wars for Cespedes and Jorge Soler, for example.

 

Everyone says how easy it is to find slugging corner outfielders or 1B/DH types but it's JUST NOT THAT EASY or every team in baseball would be stocked with sluggers at LF/RF/3B/1B/DH. That's just not the case in baseball anymore.

 

No team in baseball can say that. Even the Rangers have Mitch Moreland playing regularly, and he's never going to be confused with Dayan Viciedo's talent upside.

 

 

 

If we could play Lillibridge in LF or CF even, and acquire a nice 3b bat using Viciedo and Morel or others, I'd be perfectly content.

 

Brent has one of the longest swings on our team currently. He's not an everyday player or the solution at either LF or 3B for a playoff-caliber team. He's a great supersub, he's versatile, until yesterday, he was a good pinch-runner.

 

You can't win games at USCF with an outfield of Lillibridge/DeAza/Rios because you need to have at least one of those guys putting up an 850-900+ OPS, and none of those guys have come close to doing that recently for a FULL SEASON of play. Sure, Brent can be part of a platoon, but he's NOT an everyday player.

 

Trading Morel gets us nowhere for 2013 unless you think Saladino's going to be ready to take his place in the line-up in August/September...and is the long-term solution at that position, because Dallas McPherson or Tyler Kuhn certainly are not.

 

 

Edited April 26, 2012 by caulfield12

[fathom]

The thing with Viciedo is I honestly believe he has more value to the Sox than as a trade chip for another team. On the 25 man roster, I don't think there are a lot of valuable trade chips besides for Reed, Konerko, Sale and Humber

[iamshack]

But what's the point?

 

Viciedo's value is not much higher around baseball AT THIS EXACT MOMENT than Gordon Beckham or Brent Morel.

 

He was never a consensus Top 25 player, like a Brandon Wood. Did you notice how badly Mike Moustakas looked with the Royals for MOST of his rookie season?

 

 

We should have this debate about Viciedo every game he struggles...?

 

We don't have a single hitter in the minors under age 25 capable of putting up the numbers Dayan could put up.

 

We're not going to be able to trade Dayan for Carlos Quentin 2 because young hitters like that are being WAY overvalued by opposing GM's.

 

Just look at the crazy bidding wars for Cespedes and Jorge Soler, for example.

 

Everyone says how easy it is to find slugging corner outfielders or 1B/DH types but it's JUST NOT THAT EASY or every team in baseball would be stocked with sluggers at LF/RF/3B/1B/DH. That's just not the case in baseball anymore.

 

No team in baseball can say that. Even the Rangers have Mitch Moreland playing regularly, and he's never going to be confused with Dayan Viciedo's talent upside.

If you do as I said, which is protect him like Ozzie did, exposing him to only the most favorable matchups, let him get on a little roll, and then deal him to a team with a 3b prospect that is blocked or something, I think you might be able to get more value out of him than he is to us.

[caulfield12]

What's the best team in our division?

 

The Detroit Tigers.

 

What are they averaging in terms of runs per game? 3.3.

 

How many times have they scored more than 5 runs? ONCE.

 

 

They have Avila, Austin Jackson (playing very well this year), Cabrera, Fielder, Boesch, Peralta, Delmon Young, Raburn...on paper, coming into the year, a consensus TOP 3 offensive line-up in the American League, right?

 

They're in the process of possibly losing yet another game to the Mariners at home.

 

What does all this mean?

 

It's early. And that line-up probably misses one single element, Victor Martinez, more than anyone ever could have ever realized. And it's probably still going to come down to pitching and clutch hitting, as it did with the Tigers when they were superhot the final 2 months of 2011.

 

 

 

 

[Steve9347]

Great topic, because clearly no one here can look at stats and realize that Viciedo hasn't played well and has a strike zone the size of Alabama.

[iamshack]

What's the best team in our division?

 

The Detroit Tigers.

 

What are they averaging in terms of runs per game? 3.3.

 

How many times have they scored more than 5 runs? ONCE.

 

 

They have Avila, Austin Jackson (playing very well this year), Cabrera, Fielder, Boesch, Peralta, Delmon Young, Raburn...on paper, coming into the year, a consensus TOP 3 offensive line-up in the American League, right?

 

They're in the process of possibly losing yet another game to the Mariners at home.

 

What does all this mean?

 

It's early. And that line-up probably misses one single element, Victor Martinez, more than anyone ever could have ever realized. And it's probably still going to come down to pitching and clutch hitting, as it did with the Tigers when they were superhot the final 2 months of 2011.

I'm merely looking at this from an asset optimization standpoint. It has absolutely nothing to do with yesterday or the Tigers. Personally, I am not high on Viciedo. That's all I mean to convey.