NBA Thread 2013-2014

[Willard Decker]

I think anyone with a brain knows that was Pat Riley's work in those early Knicks years when he took over and implemented the 1-3-1 trap. (which was brilliant and he was also the first coach to watch video during halftime to break down adjustments) Guys like Oakley, Ewing (although he was already a stud), Starks, etc. were already all defensive players before Van Gundy took over. Now, he used alot of Pat's philosophy in his coaching and it helped hide...er..."made non defensive players better" such as LJ as you alluded to (same with Thibodeau on certain guys currently), but his in-game adjustments/creativity (which is part of what he was criticized for) was indeed poor.

 

The bolded part I agree with, particularly when it came to Van Gundy recognizing and exploiting match-up advantages on both ends of the court. He insisted on running the Knicks offense through Patrick Ewing no matter the situation, a decision that relegated Johnson- an excellent low-post player- to the role of weak-side rebounder and both Allan Houston- a tremendous shooter- and Latrell Sprewell- one of the league's best slashers- to standing behind the three-point line waiting for a pass that would never come. Patrick Ewing is a Hall of Famer player, but his skills declined significantly during the final five seasons of his career. That the Knicks remained competitive without him- prompting one of Bill Simmons' friends to postulate the now-infamous Ewing Theory- is a testament to his inability to make his teammates better, a problem now faced by the man who ultimately replaced him as the face of the Knicks franchise.

 

--Captain Decker

 

[ZoomSlowik]

Have fun with the Sixers now. If they get Wiggins, it's on for them. They got Noel coming back and MCW has proven to be flawed but plenty legit. That's potentially an elite ball-stopper, versatile wing defender and rim protector on the same team.

 

They're going to get the Pelican's pick too unless it falls in the top-5. That's an extremely raw group though, it would probably take a few years. Noel's offensive game is bsaically non-existant, MCW's efficiency is terrible and getting worse as the year keeps going, and Wiggins probably isn't going to score 20 a night from day 1 (though I do think the NBA style of play is better for his game).

[thxfrthmmrs]

I think anyone with a brain knows that was Pat Riley's work in those early Knicks years when he took over and implemented the 1-3-1 trap. (which was brilliant and he was also the first coach to watch video during halftime to break down adjustments) Guys like Oakley, Ewing (although he was already a stud), Starks, etc. were already all defensive players before Van Gundy took over. Now, he used alot of Pat's philosophy in his coaching and it helped hide...er..."made non defensive players better" such as LJ as you alluded to (same with Thibodeau on certain guys currently), but his in-game adjustments/creativity (which is part of what he was criticized for) was indeed poor.

 

This is a rather flawed argument.

 

Your premise was McGrady should get some slack for not playing for the "best" defensive coach, but then you went on to discredit Van Gundy in his early days as a head coach.

 

From 2004 to 2007, the Rockets were perennial ranked in the top 10 or top 5 in defensive efficiency. He wasn't the best defensive coach, but it doesn't take the best defensive coach to coach the best defensive player. And you can even say McGrady was a below average defender in certain years prior to 2008.

 

I've watched most of the Magic/Rockets games from 2002 to 2008, and in certain games, T-Mac looked brilliant defensively when he tried. The defensive work in 2005 playoffs against Dirk was brilliant. But he was never counted on to defend the other team's best players otherwise, even at the end of games. The superstars we have today, Lebron, Durant, George, and Kobe in years past, all guarded the other team's alpha dog in late stretches or even throughout the game.

[Rowand44]

And now CP3 is just throwing oops to Blake. Fun stuff.

[Willard Decker]

They're going to get the Pelican's pick too unless it falls in the top-5. That's an extremely raw group though, it would probably take a few years. Noel's offensive game is bsaically non-existant, MCW's efficiency is terrible and getting worse as the year keeps going, and Wiggins probably isn't going to score 20 a night from day 1 (though I do think the NBA style of play is better for his game).

 

The 76ers should draft Wiggins or Parker if able, but the player whom I think would flourish were they to select him is Julius Randle. He has obvious flaws in his offensive game, and his defense remains a work-in-progress. But I think he would be effective playing next to Noel because the latter would make up for his defensive shortcomings. And as Noel doesn't play effectively in the low-post, Randle would have ample opportunities to play on the low-block and has shown a willingness to pass out of double-teams to create shots for teammates. Scouts have criticized his left-handedness and short wingspan, but his skill set is exceptionally rare given how the NBA has changed and would set him apart from his less-skilled peers, who aren't accustomed to defending a player who can back them into the painted area. Randle has been limited by opposing zone defenses, but he's not likely to see as many of these schemes at the next level. I've also the impression that he will benefit from playing with a point-guard who understands how to properly run an offense, something that the Harrison twins remain clueless about.

 

--Captain Decker

[thxfrthmmrs]

I've seen those dumb sites. They're making fun of his lazy eye as much as anything.

 

40.1

38.3

39.4

40.0

40.8

 

Those were his minutes played from '01 to '05, his best ball. Those minutes at that level, yeah, lazy is not the word that comes to mind. T-mac is an easy target because he never got out the first round. But dude was great.

 

By that logic, the guy who you called lazy, Vince Carter, averaged 38 to 39 minutes a game in years he was healthy. What does that really tell us?

 

Some even say that McGrady's chronic back injuries were a result of him not hitting the weight room and taking care of his body. But I don't wanna open that can of worm.

 

By the way, if you Google top 20 laziest players in the league, both Carter and McGrady made the list.

 

So we have a guy who admits that he never took interest in practice, calls himself lazy publicly, admits his favorite hobby is actually sleep, had his former coach questioned his work ethic and wonders what would have happened if he had tried harder, and is also someone who rarely tries on the defensive end even though he had all the defensive gifts, and yet you keep making irrelevant points like MPG or point to injuries as the reason why he didn't have a weak work ethic.

 

You just took trolling to another level dude.

[SoxAce]

This is a rather flawed argument.

 

Your premise was McGrady should get some slack for not playing for the "best" defensive coach, but then you went on to discredit Van Gundy in his early days as a head coach.

 

From 2004 to 2007, the Rockets were perennial ranked in the top 10 or top 5 in defensive efficiency. He wasn't the best defensive coach, but it doesn't take the best defensive coach to coach the best defensive player. And you can even say McGrady was a below average defender in certain years prior to 2008.

 

I've watched most of the Magic/Rockets games from 2002 to 2008, and in certain games, T-Mac looked brilliant defensively when he tried. The defensive work in 2005 playoffs against Dirk was brilliant. But he was never counted on to defend the other team's best players otherwise, even at the end of games. The superstars we have today, Lebron, Durant, George, and Kobe in years past, all guarded the other team's alpha dog in late stretches or even throughout the game.

 

Your going in complete circles with yourself here, and in a way arguing with yourself. I already said he used alot of Riley's philosophy in his coaching tactics as well as his motivating of players, but if I "discredit" him of being a poor in-game adjuster with lacking certain X's and O's, then yes. I already said enough about T-Mac's defensive game, so I won't reiterate it again. And I wonder why he wasn't put on certain player's in stretches late. Could it be the player himself, could it be Van Gundy not trusting him, or could it be not burning him out on the defensive side of the ball late in the game.. hmm.. Even Durant wasn't great defensively his first year or two comming out of Texas and was seriously influenced by Ron Adams, helping his development in that area.

 

Your one of the few posters I agree with quite a bit in years past when I posted more in this thread (along with Nite, Zoom, Felix and 2012-mid '13 version of J4L ) but at times like this no.. not even close.

Edited February 10, 2014 by SoxAce

[thxfrthmmrs]

Your going in complete circles with yourself here, and in a way arguing with yourself. I already said he used alot of Riley's philosophy in his coaching tactics as well as his motivating of players, but if I "discredit" him of being a poor in-game adjuster with lacking certain X's and O's, then yes. I already said enough about T-Mac's defensive game, so I won't reiterate it again. And I wonder why he wasn't put on certain player's in stretches late. Could it be the player himself, could it be Van Gundy not trusting him, or could it be not burning him out on the defensive side of the ball late in the game.. hmm.. Even Durant wasn't great defensively his first year or two comming out of Texas and was seriously influenced by Ron Adams, helping his development in that area.

 

Your one of the few posters I agree with quite a bit in years past when I posted more in this thread (along with Nite, Zoom, Felix and 2012-mid '13 version of J4L ) but at times like this no.. not even close.

 

Let me look at who the Rockets' assistant coach was from 2004 to 2007? Wait.. Tom Thibodeau? If he really wanted to become a shut down defender, he certainly had the resources to do it.

 

When Lebron and Durant came into the league, they weren't known for their defense. But they quickly learned that to become the best in the league, you have to be a two way player. But a 20 year old McGrady was a more energetic and physical defender in Toronto than he was at 26 with the Rockets.

 

Sorry Ace, it's more of a case that I can't agree with you here

 

And you can't say Van Gundy didn't trust McGrady's defensive ability when he put him on Dirk for most of the playoff series in 2005, with the season on the line no less.

 

And I have to stick to what I saw from McGrady here. He was generally a good help defender in the paint, but he never had the competitive fire to say that I want to shut down Kobe this game, much like Kobe took on the assignment when they played. He was often slow to rotate when guarding the pick and roll, and like you mentioned, he never moved much when he didn't have the ball in his hand, it was also the same case on defensive end, he just didn't feel like chasing guys around, and often giving up on the play when beat by defender. Part of it is to conserve energy, I understand. But part of it is also on the player himself, he just didn't care enough to put more effort on that end.

Edited February 10, 2014 by thxfrthmmrs

[bmags]

You know you had a bad game when I look at the final score the next day and saw you only lost by nearly 50 points:

http://www.nba.com/games/20140209/PHILAC/g...nfo.html?ls=slt

 

edit: Meant to say, "and am impressed to see you only lost by nearly 50 points"

Edited February 10, 2014 by bmags

[witesoxfan]

You know you had a bad game when I look at the final score the next day and saw you only lost by nearly 50 points:

http://www.nba.com/games/20140209/PHILAC/g...nfo.html?ls=slt

 

They were down 52-15 early in the 2nd.

[bmags]

They were down 52-15 early in the 2nd.

 

Reminded me of that Bulls-Twolves game in early 00s where Bulls were down 90-40 at halftime or something like that.

[Willard Decker]

They were down 52-15 early in the 2nd.

 

 

Reminded me of that Bulls-Twolves game in early 00s where Bulls were down 90-40 at halftime or something like that.

 

The Thunder had a similar game last season against the Charlotte Bobcats. They led 57-25 in the third quarter.

 

--Captain Decker

 

[Rowand44]

The Sixers are at it again!

[Willard Decker]

The Sixers are at it again!

 

Golden State has too many weapons.

 

--Captain Decker

[Quin]

Apparently Bulls and Knicks talking about Melo deal.

 

The rumored deal at RealGM was Boozer, Kirk, Butler, 3 1sts, Snell for Melo, Felton, Shumpert.

 

Take out Shumpert/Butler swap and you got a deal. Otherwise, only 2 firsts.

[Steve9347]

Apparently Bulls and Knicks talking about Melo deal.

 

The rumored deal at RealGM was Boozer, Kirk, Butler, 3 1sts, Snell for Melo, Felton, Shumpert.

 

Take out Shumpert/Butler swap and you got a deal. Otherwise, only 2 firsts.

There's no reason for the Knicks to do this trade that was made up by a poster at RealGM.

[Brian]

That sounds awful

[Balta1701]

There's no reason for the Knicks to do this trade that was made up by a poster at RealGM.

3 firsts going from the Bulls to the Knicks and your reaction is that the Knicks wouldn't do it?

[Steve9347]

3 firsts going from the Bulls to the Knicks and your reaction is that the Knicks wouldn't do it?

Neither side would do it. The Knicks won't trade their only draw, and the Bulls would never part with the firsts when Melo could just sign with them this offseason.

 

I will add a disclaimer that "anything can happen" to not have another "LeBron signs in Miami" situation.

[2nd_city_saint787]

I agree with Steve here on the Bulls side of things. Why give up 3 firsts when the potential is there that they can just sign him.

 

Maybe if Rose was coming back for the playoffs it could payoff, but right now I'd prefer they be sellers at the trade deadline....Still just 4.5 games out of the bottom 10, if they trade guys like Taj, Dunleavy, and Kirk then they very well could free fall.

[bmags]

The Sixers are at it again!

 

This is actually terrifying.

 

I thought I was free and in the clear.

 

Now 3-24 the rest of the way seems unattainable. I'm not sure they will win another game? When do they play milwaukee next?!

[Dick Allen]

I agree with Steve here on the Bulls side of things. Why give up 3 firsts when the potential is there that they can just sign him.

 

Maybe if Rose was coming back for the playoffs it could payoff, but right now I'd prefer they be sellers at the trade deadline....Still just 4.5 games out of the bottom 10, if they trade guys like Taj, Dunleavy, and Kirk then they very well could free fall.

The Bulls do it because they with this trade they can increase the chances of getting him to be a Bull next year. The 3 firsts aren't that big of a deal as they most likely won't be lottery picks. Also, the crazy thing that makes me think this has to be false is the inclusion of Boozer. The Bulls would love this, because even if he was amenstied, they still have to pay him the difference between his salary next year and his salary with the team that takes him. The Knicks are stuck with him next year if they trade for him. It really doesn't make sense for the Knicks unless they know Melo is out of there. For the Bulls, that trade is a no brainer. The Bulls need another star or two. Thibs can get guys picked up off the scrap heap to contribute and be decent role players.

Edited February 11, 2014 by Dick Allen

[Jake]

I'd do it. You're left with Rose, Melo, Noah, Taj, Mirotic coming back for next year along with Felton and Shumpert.

 

You're giving up some serious value there but you're getting Melo without gutting your top talents.

 

Now, NYK only does this if they think/know that Melo is going elsewhere.

[Balta1701]

The Bulls do it because they with this trade they can increase the chances of getting him to be a Bull next year. The 3 firsts aren't that big of a deal as they most likely won't be lottery picks. Also, the crazy thing that makes me think this has to be false is the inclusion of Boozer. The Bulls would love this, because even if he was amenstied, they still have to pay him the difference between his salary next year and his salary with the team that takes him. The Knicks are stuck with him next year if they trade for him. It really doesn't make sense for the Knicks unless they know Melo is out of there. For the Bulls, that trade is a no brainer. The Bulls need another star or two. Thibs can get guys picked up off the scrap heap to contribute and be decent role players.

One of the lessons I've taken from guys like Tony Snell, Jimmy Butler, and Taj Gibson is...if a team has a star or two already, the value of a recently-drafted first round player can be enormous. It's having those kind of guys filling up your roster that allows you to offer that 2nd max contract in addition to the guy you already have.

[Dick Allen]

One of the lessons I've taken from guys like Tony Snell, Jimmy Butler, and Taj Gibson is...if a team has a star or two already, the value of a recently-drafted first round player can be enormous. It's having those kind of guys filling up your roster that allows you to offer that 2nd max contract in addition to the guy you already have.

Still, stars win championships in the NBA. You can't pass up picking one up because you value non lottery first round picks. They may turn out, but the jury is still out on Snell, Butler is a nice player, but you can find that production, and if your team is good enough, veterans will play for exception money to win and fill those minutes.

 

I'm 99.99% sure this rumor has zero truth in it anyway. Boozer is the tell to me. I don't know why the Knicks would pay him $15 million next year in order to give the Bulls Melo now.

Edited February 11, 2014 by Dick Allen