flavum Posted June 4, 2014 Share Posted June 4, 2014 Beckham got called up 5 years ago today. He's averaged 135 games every 365 days. .251/.314/.383/.698 OPS+: 86 If you would have known these numbers five years ago this morning, it would have been disappointing and surprising that he was still here for five years. But he is above average defensively and the Sox infield depth has been bad up until recently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted June 4, 2014 Share Posted June 4, 2014 QUOTE (flavum @ Jun 4, 2014 -> 09:51 AM) But he is above average defensively No. He. Isn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flavum Posted June 4, 2014 Share Posted June 4, 2014 (edited) QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 4, 2014 -> 08:54 AM) No. He. Isn't. He has his moments. The range is good, and the arm is strong. What do the metrics say, because I'm just going off what I've watched? Edited June 4, 2014 by flavum Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted June 4, 2014 Share Posted June 4, 2014 QUOTE (flavum @ Jun 4, 2014 -> 09:56 AM) He has his moments. The range is good, and the arm is strong. What do the metrics say, because I'm just going off what I've watched? Pretty much every metric and my eye test agree. He was slightly above average when he first moved to 2b in 2011, but he's gotten worse each successive year and last year was a below-average 2b. His range used to be good but by 2013 it was down to tolerable and he makes a ton of errors to go with. So far the metrics say he's improved slightly this year, enough to be back to slightly above average potentially if he doesn't hit a string of errors again, but I haven't seen enough of him to agree or disagree on that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eminor3rd Posted June 4, 2014 Share Posted June 4, 2014 QUOTE (flavum @ Jun 4, 2014 -> 08:56 AM) He has his moments. The range is good, and the arm is strong. What do the metrics say, because I'm just going off what I've watched? UZR calls him basically average. I've always felt like he was a bit above, but if there's one area to trust the advanced metrics over your eyes, it's range, IMO. I think it's extremely difficult to judge because whenever a guy goes to his limit, it always SEEMS like he went far, but the mind really has no frame of reference. You can't "remember" how far other guys have gone in the past. It's the whole "past-a-diving" Jeter thing -- he would make "great plays" on stuff that better defenders would make look routine. It takes an extremely practiced and trained eye to be able to see that at the ML level, and it's practically impossible on TV when you rarely ever see where they started or how quickly they reacted. So, the short of it is that the advanced metrics say that while he is certainly a decent defender, he isn't nearly as good as Hawk leads us to believe, and not nearly good enough to make up for a poor bat. If he hits, he'll be fine, but we shouldn't give him a longer leash because of his average-ish glove. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoxAce Posted June 4, 2014 Share Posted June 4, 2014 QUOTE (Marty34 @ May 31, 2014 -> 04:56 PM) Saw my guy last night at the game and he hears Sanchez up sooner than you think at SS. That was the most interesting to me, if true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted June 4, 2014 Share Posted June 4, 2014 We didn't have those metrics around 15 years ago when Jose Valentin was SS, but he was always known for having great range (and the arm strength) despite some ugly error totals (2000 in particular, which led to the Clayton disaster from KW). At that time, the only thing we really had to go off, and it wasn't scientific in the least, was total chances...and we always had that running debate back and forth about how many balls Clayton didn't get to. He made the routine plays, sure, but his lack of range kept him from getting to a ton of balls that Valentin could get to, and a lot of baserunners reached because Clayton didn't have a gun like Valentin or Uribe and they would beat out a lot of throws as well. It would be interesting to revisit that debate again, with modern analytical tools available. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted June 4, 2014 Share Posted June 4, 2014 QUOTE (Marty34 @ May 31, 2014 -> 04:56 PM) Saw my guy last night at the game and he hears Sanchez up sooner than you think at SS. Having just seen this now, I'm curious to know when your guy saw him. As of today, June 4th, 2014, Carlos Sanchez has played 44 games at 2B and 11 at SS this year. For his career, he's played 230 at 2B and 159 at SS. He's also played the previous 11 games at 2B with Tyler Saladino and Marcus Semien primarily playing SS over that time frame. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthSideSox72 Posted June 4, 2014 Share Posted June 4, 2014 QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Jun 4, 2014 -> 09:35 AM) Having just seen this now, I'm curious to know when your guy saw him. As of today, June 4th, 2014, Carlos Sanchez has played 44 games at 2B and 11 at SS this year. For his career, he's played 230 at 2B and 159 at SS. He's also played the previous 11 games at 2B with Tyler Saladino and Marcus Semien primarily playing SS over that time frame. Sanchez has been playing SS more lately. I don't have a recent scouting report on his D there, but the ones I saw a year or two ago, he was called either average or fringe-average there defensively. However, he was still quite young, so improvement may have happened since. He's called above average at 2B. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted June 4, 2014 Share Posted June 4, 2014 QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jun 4, 2014 -> 09:23 AM) We didn't have those metrics around 15 years ago when Jose Valentin was SS, but he was always known for having great range (and the arm strength) despite some ugly error totals (2000 in particular, which led to the Clayton disaster from KW). At that time, the only thing we really had to go off, and it wasn't scientific in the least, was total chances...and we always had that running debate back and forth about how many balls Clayton didn't get to. He made the routine plays, sure, but his lack of range kept him from getting to a ton of balls that Valentin could get to, and a lot of baserunners reached because Clayton didn't have a gun like Valentin or Uribe and they would beat out a lot of throws as well. It would be interesting to revisit that debate again, with modern analytical tools available. How scientific is range using today's tools vs. back then? A couple inches here where you are positioned makes a big difference. A ball hit with 1 or 2 mph more or less velocity can make a big difference. The infield you play on makes a big difference. Total chances is kind of BS too. Wouldn't your pitchers have a lot to do with that? If you shouldn't judge pitchers by number of wins, you shouldn't judge range by total chances. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldsox Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 I hope they can trade Gordo next month for a quality CF prospect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 QUOTE (oldsox @ Jun 6, 2014 -> 08:39 AM) I hope they can trade Gordo next month for a quality CF prospect. Already given up on Eaton, eh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harfman77 Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Jun 6, 2014 -> 08:41 AM) Already given up on Eaton, eh? I think most feel Eaton is a better LF candidate long term. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 QUOTE (IowaSoxFan @ Jun 6, 2014 -> 07:03 AM) I think most feel Eaton is a better LF candidate long term. Why? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eminor3rd Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 QUOTE (IowaSoxFan @ Jun 6, 2014 -> 08:03 AM) I think most feel Eaton is a better LF candidate long term. Who? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harfman77 Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 QUOTE (iamshack @ Jun 6, 2014 -> 09:06 AM) Why? So he can stay healthy and in the lineup. Putting him in LF also significantly raises the overall defense in the OF if you have someone as good or better in CF. If Avi Garcia can learn to play defense the outfield could be elite defensively. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigsoxhurt35 Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 QUOTE (IowaSoxFan @ Jun 6, 2014 -> 09:09 AM) So he can stay healthy and in the lineup. Putting him in LF also significantly raises the overall defense in the OF if you have someone as good or better in CF. If Avi Garcia can learn to play defense the outfield could be elite defensively. Meh, his injuries are like those of all outfielders. Groins, hamstrings. Eaton is fine at CF. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eminor3rd Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 QUOTE (IowaSoxFan @ Jun 6, 2014 -> 09:09 AM) So he can stay healthy and in the lineup. Putting him in LF also significantly raises the overall defense in the OF if you have someone as good or better in CF. If Avi Garcia can learn to play defense the outfield could be elite defensively. ...who somehow destroyed his right shoulder diving in RF. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenSox Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 (edited) QUOTE (IowaSoxFan @ Jun 6, 2014 -> 09:09 AM) So he can stay healthy and in the lineup. Putting him in LF also significantly raises the overall defense in the OF if you have someone as good or better in CF. If Avi Garcia can learn to play defense the outfield could be elite defensively. Eaton's offense is marginal for a corner OF. But he would help the D a lot. Edited June 6, 2014 by GreenSox Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donny Lucy's Avocado Farm Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Jun 6, 2014 -> 09:28 AM) ...who somehow destroyed his right shoulder diving in RF. Well ya... I think that's what the OP was saying.... He has good speed and a good arm, so if he can learn positioning, reads, etc... he will be a good RF-er and be less injury prone. Having to dive at everything likely increases injury risk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Ginger Kid Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 QUOTE (IowaSoxFan @ Jun 6, 2014 -> 07:03 AM) I think most feel Eaton is a better LF candidate long term. not me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigHurt3515 Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 QUOTE (The Ginger Kid @ Jun 6, 2014 -> 11:39 AM) not me Me either. So far he has shown to be a good CF.. Its not that easy to find someone who can play CF as well as him and can hit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eminor3rd Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 QUOTE (Charlie Haeger's Knuckles @ Jun 6, 2014 -> 10:39 AM) Well ya... I think that's what the OP was saying.... He has good speed and a good arm, so if he can learn positioning, reads, etc... he will be a good RF-er and be less injury prone. Having to dive at everything likely increases injury risk. My point was that I don't think a move to LF will reduce injury risk. But also, yeah, Avi is so, so bad at defense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldsox Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Jun 6, 2014 -> 07:41 AM) Already given up on Eaton, eh? Not really. I endorsed the Santiago trade when it happened. He cetainly hit for a high average in most of his minor league career. He hustles. I said about a week or so ago that he was one bad week away from hitting .240. Here he is. He seems to be struggling. A few weaknesses, so-so arm for sure. Baserunning is iffy...I have seen several instances where he just doesn't get that good jump that superior baserunners have. He probably needs a jolt of confidence. Still improving, hopefully. I just think CF is not a position of strength right now. We have a slug playing left, and Eaton certainly can't make up for that deficit. If Avisail had never gotten hurt, he would help cover up Eaton's weaknesses; that is, he would fit in better. But our outfield is so bad right now with no help in sight, I made that comment about trading Gordo for a CF type a bit impulsively. I meant it, but have not given up on him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldsox Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 QUOTE (iamshack @ Jun 6, 2014 -> 08:06 AM) Why? Arm. Left handed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.