Marty34 Posted June 4, 2014 Share Posted June 4, 2014 QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ Jun 4, 2014 -> 12:24 PM) by you. You just intimated that if the Sox kicked in more money, than a bigger prospect/player than Eaton could have been acquired. Leury Garcia you mean. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted June 4, 2014 Share Posted June 4, 2014 (edited) QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ Jun 4, 2014 -> 12:24 PM) by you. You just intimated that if the Sox kicked in more money, than a bigger prospect/player than Eaton could have been acquired. I think if you went back to that thread, you would see Marty's thinking isn't unique. Many figured the more money the Sox threw in, the better prospect coming back. They took all of Rios' money. IMO, I doubt they had a prospect $5 million or more better than Leury that they would have been willing to kick in if the Sox had agreed to pay part of the contract. Paying several million for someone maybe a tad better prospect than Leury seems like a waste to me. There were a lot of people who thought Rios was going to bring back a top prospect. Edited June 4, 2014 by Dick Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted June 4, 2014 Share Posted June 4, 2014 I like how in one forum we're saying Leury Garcia, who is in the big leagues at age 23, is a poor return for Rios, and in another forum we're impressed at how well Eduardo Escobar is doing for the Twins. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted June 4, 2014 Share Posted June 4, 2014 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jun 4, 2014 -> 12:23 PM) This core though to me is nowhere near the core they had in the early 90s with Thomas, Ventura, Guillen, One Dog, Raines, Cora, Karko, McDowell, Fernandez, Alvarez , Roberto Hernandez. Then they would sign rentals like Franco, DJ, Burks, even Tartabull was good his one season. Before he got ultra-conservate, even though that seemed to work out, Schueler did put up an impressive piece of work. Granted he started with a pretty nice core, but his additions, until he sent Black Jack packing, where usually really good. The '87-'90 drafts helped that a ton. There's drafting well and then there's flat out striking gold with everything you do for four straight drafts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted June 4, 2014 Share Posted June 4, 2014 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jun 4, 2014 -> 12:23 PM) This core though to me is nowhere near the core they had in the early 90s with Thomas, Ventura, Guillen, One Dog, Raines, Cora, Karko, McDowell, Fernandez, Alvarez , Roberto Hernandez. Then they would sign rentals like Franco, DJ, Burks, even Tartabull was good his one season. Before he got ultra-conservate, even though that seemed to work out, Schueler did put up an impressive piece of work. Granted he started with a pretty nice core, but his additions, until he sent Black Jack packing, where usually really good. It's not even as good as Konerko, Ordonez, Durham, Thomas, Lee. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted June 4, 2014 Share Posted June 4, 2014 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Jun 4, 2014 -> 01:33 PM) It's not even as good as Konerko, Ordonez, Durham, Thomas, Lee. Especially considering that Ray Durham was such an incredible pitcher. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyyle23 Posted June 4, 2014 Share Posted June 4, 2014 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jun 4, 2014 -> 12:31 PM) I think if you went back to that thread, you would see Marty's thinking isn't unique. Many figured the more money the Sox threw in, the better prospect coming back. They took all of Rios' money. IMO, I doubt they had a prospect $5 million or more better than Leury that they would have been willing to kick in if the Sox had agreed to pay part of the contract. Paying several million for someone maybe a tad better prospect than Leury seems like a waste to me. There were a lot of people who thought Rios was going to bring back a top prospect. No, because he went after the trade deadline. Any player he was traded for was going to have to clear waivers, and top prospects arent gonna clear waivers. Once Rios didnt go before the July deadline, we knew that he wasnt going to command a big haul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted June 4, 2014 Share Posted June 4, 2014 QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Jun 4, 2014 -> 12:31 PM) The '87-'90 drafts helped that a ton. There's drafting well and then there's flat out striking gold with everything you do for four straight drafts. But out of those 4 drafts, the White Sox only drafted 5 players that put up at least a 10 WAR for them. The 4 first rounders and Ray Durham who was drafted in 1990. Wickman they traded for Steve Sax. He was 1990, and James Baldwin was 9.2. Also a 1990 pick. Basically, Himes turned around an organization with a weak major league team, and weak farm system, by drafting one all star quality player a year for 3 years. 1990 came, and they actually drafted multiple players who turned out fine, but by the time that draft took place, the team was already on it's way to being a power. Adding Fernandez did help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harfman77 Posted June 4, 2014 Share Posted June 4, 2014 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jun 4, 2014 -> 12:23 PM) This core though to me is nowhere near the core they had in the early 90s with Thomas, Ventura, Guillen, One Dog, Raines, Cora, Karko, McDowell, Fernandez, Alvarez , Roberto Hernandez. Then they would sign rentals like Franco, DJ, Burks, even Tartabull was good his one season. Before he got ultra-conservate, even though that seemed to work out, Schueler did put up an impressive piece of work. Granted he started with a pretty nice core, but his additions, until he sent Black Jack packing, where usually really good. That was great. Ventura #10 overall 1988 Thomas #7 overall 1989 Guillen - Intl FA Johnson acquired via trade from the Cardinals for Jose DeLeon who was received for the White Sox to return rule V pick Bobby Bonilla Cora - acquired via trade from Padres Kark - #14 overall 1982 McDowell - #5 overall 1987 Fernandez - #4 overall 1990 Alvarez - Intl FA Hernandez #16 overall 1986 It took a decade of sucking to build that core. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted June 4, 2014 Share Posted June 4, 2014 QUOTE (IowaSoxFan @ Jun 4, 2014 -> 01:00 PM) That was great. Ventura #10 overall 1988 Thomas #7 overall 1989 Guillen - Intl FA Johnson acquired via trade from the Cardinals for Jose DeLeon who was received for the White Sox to return rule V pick Bobby Bonilla Cora - acquired via trade from Padres Kark - #14 overall 1982 McDowell - #5 overall 1987 Fernandez - #4 overall 1990 Alvarez - Intl FA Hernandez #16 overall 1986 It took a decade of sucking to build that core. Guillen was acquired as a big piece in the trade that sent Lamar Hoyt to SD and brought back Sherm Lollar and others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted June 4, 2014 Share Posted June 4, 2014 (edited) QUOTE (IowaSoxFan @ Jun 4, 2014 -> 01:00 PM) That was great. Ventura #10 overall 1988 Thomas #7 overall 1989 Guillen - Intl FA Johnson acquired via trade from the Cardinals for Jose DeLeon who was received for the White Sox to return rule V pick Bobby Bonilla Cora - acquired via trade from Padres Kark - #14 overall 1982 McDowell - #5 overall 1987 Fernandez - #4 overall 1990 Alvarez - Intl FA Hernandez #16 overall 1986 It took a decade of sucking to build that core. They were bad from 86-89 Ventura-draft Thomas-draft Guillen-trade for Hoyt Johnson-trade for DeLeon Cora-trade w/SD the Sox also got the Deacon for a couple of minor league pitchers that amounted to 0 Karkovice-draft McDowell-draft Fernandez-draft Alvarez-traded Baines, for Alvarez, Fletcher and a certain Flinstones vitamins loving RF Hernandez-trade with the Angels for a minor leaguer who never made it. There were some genius moves here. Himes didn't draft Karkovice, or trade for Ozzie, and he didn't trade for Cora, but everything else was him, and he got fired because JR didn't like him. But he probably had the most impressive 3-3.5 year stint a GM could possibly have considering exactly where the team was when he took over, both on the major league level and minor league level. He also drafted Ray Durham . Himes didn't have a lot of draft picks do much in the majors, but the ones that did were not just run of the mill players. I'm fairly certain he also had the lowest payroll in baseball the years he was the GM of the White Sox. The White Sox total payroll for the 4 years Himes was GM was less $28 million. Less than $7 million per year. Edited June 4, 2014 by Dick Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted June 4, 2014 Share Posted June 4, 2014 QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ Jun 4, 2014 -> 12:38 PM) No, because he went after the trade deadline. Any player he was traded for was going to have to clear waivers, and top prospects arent gonna clear waivers. Once Rios didnt go before the July deadline, we knew that he wasnt going to command a big haul Only if they were/are on the 40 man roster at the time. If they are not, they do not have to clear waivers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 (edited) QUOTE (IowaSoxFan @ Jun 4, 2014 -> 12:00 PM) That was great. Ventura #10 overall 1988 Thomas #7 overall 1989 Guillen - Intl FA Johnson acquired via trade from the Cardinals for Jose DeLeon who was received for the White Sox to return rule V pick Bobby Bonilla Cora - acquired via trade from Padres Kark - #14 overall 1982 McDowell - #5 overall 1987 Fernandez - #4 overall 1990 Alvarez - Intl FA Hernandez #16 overall 1986 It took a decade of sucking to build that core. Despite all the complaints about the new stadium, the timing was right in terms of where the team was positioned talent-wise going into the early 90's. Couldn't have been more the opposite in Minnesota, for example. Edited June 5, 2014 by caulfield12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 4, 2014 -> 11:31 AM) I like how in one forum we're saying Leury Garcia, who is in the big leagues at age 23, is a poor return for Rios, and in another forum we're impressed at how well Eduardo Escobar is doing for the Twins. When Leury puts up an OPS of over 650 for 130+ at-bats and isn't more notable for what he did pitching in a game than anything else he's accomplished, you can get back to us on that one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 (edited) I think it's completely fair to say that the return we got for Rios was underwhelming and that had we been willing to pay the rest of his 2013 salary we would have gotten a much better return. Clearly the Sox were looking for financial flexibility in the Rios deal and that's what they got. Not sure I agree with that decision, but it definitely impacted the overall return. Also, like Dick Allen & raBBit have already stated, trading Rios did not result in us getting Abreu. The money would have been there regardless. This team has cut back on payroll because it's doing a semi-rebuild and only wants to commit big money to guys that can be part of the long-term core (Abreu/Tanaka). I think people will be very surprised when they see next year's Forbes' numbers and see exactly how much money the Sox made this year. Edited June 5, 2014 by Chicago White Sox Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Jun 4, 2014 -> 09:18 PM) I think it's completely fair to say that the return we got for Rios was underwhelming and that had we been willing to pay the rest of his 2013 salary we would have gotten a much better return. Clearly the Sox were looking for financial flexibility in the Rios deal and that's what they got. Not sure I agree with that decision, but it definitely impacted the overall return. Do people really think the Texas Rangers, if given the choice between using money and using prospects, would have chosen to use a better prospect in that deal? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 Someone said it best the other day. The idea of trading Reed for a near-ready offensive player was great. However, the scouting of that player might be where the trouble lies. KW and Hahn have traded a lot of big league talent over the last 5 years with very little to how for it. It's hard to imagine getting less production that what they have received from trading Quentin, Swisher, Santos, Rios, Vazquez and Reed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 QUOTE (fathom @ Jun 4, 2014 -> 09:27 PM) Someone said it best the other day. The idea of trading Reed for a near-ready offensive player was great. However, the scouting of that player might be where the trouble lies. KW and Hahn have traded a lot of big league talent over the last 5 years with very little to how for it. It's hard to imagine getting less production that what they have received from trading Quentin, Swisher, Santos, Rios, Vazquez and Reed. If you want a decent return, part of the matter is not including guys who are pretty much useless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 4, 2014 -> 07:35 PM) If you want a decent return, part of the matter is not including guys who are pretty much useless. Kanekoa (No Relation to Mark) Texeira, or Swisher? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 QUOTE (fathom @ Jun 4, 2014 -> 07:27 PM) Someone said it best the other day. The idea of trading Reed for a near-ready offensive player was great. However, the scouting of that player might be where the trouble lies. KW and Hahn have traded a lot of big league talent over the last 5 years with very little to how for it. It's hard to imagine getting less production that what they have received from trading Quentin, Swisher, Santos, Rios, Vazquez and Reed. Doubled with not getting anything back from Jenks, Crede, Gavin Floyd and Jesse Crain. At least we still have Flowers, who is more or less holding his own this season. He's not killing us, like in 2013. And didn't we also trade Hernandez from the Padres to help us get Liriano? If Liriano pitches for us in 2012 like he did with the Pirates in 2013 and carries us to the playoffs over the Tigers, that move looks really good in retrospect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleHurt05 Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 QUOTE (fathom @ Jun 4, 2014 -> 08:27 PM) Someone said it best the other day. The idea of trading Reed for a near-ready offensive player was great. However, the scouting of that player might be where the trouble lies. KW and Hahn have traded a lot of big league talent over the last 5 years with very little to how for it. It's hard to imagine getting less production that what they have received from trading Quentin, Swisher, Santos, Rios, Vazquez and Reed. So a 23 year old with 76 MLB at bats is a complete bust? I have no clue if Davidson will amount to anything, but come on now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Jun 5, 2014 -> 03:12 AM) So a 23 year old with 76 MLB at bats is a complete bust? I have no clue if Davidson will amount to anything, but come on now. As of now, something seems wrong with his hitting. I mentioned in another thread that so far, he's been a bust. Doesn't mean for a second I'm ready to give up on him. I think we can all agree we just don't want another situation where the closer is traded for someone that just falls apart relatively quickly in the minors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldsox Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 QUOTE (IowaSoxFan @ Jun 4, 2014 -> 01:00 PM) That was great. Ventura #10 overall 1988 Thomas #7 overall 1989 Guillen - Intl FA Johnson acquired via trade from the Cardinals for Jose DeLeon who was received for the White Sox to return rule V pick Bobby Bonilla Cora - acquired via trade from Padres Kark - #14 overall 1982 McDowell - #5 overall 1987 Fernandez - #4 overall 1990 Alvarez - Intl FA Hernandez #16 overall 1986 It took a decade of sucking to build that core. I never knew or forgot that Kark was a first rounder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldsox Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 4, 2014 -> 08:35 PM) If you want a decent return, part of the matter is not including guys who are pretty much useless. Balta, I don't understand what you just said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 4, 2014 -> 08:22 PM) Do people really think the Texas Rangers, if given the choice between using money and using prospects, would have chosen to use a better prospect in that deal? No, but had we been willing to pay his remaining salary his market would have been bigger. It's really not that difficult of a concept, most teams aren't flush with cash come the trade deadline. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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