Is this bullpen Rick Hahn's fault?

[2nd_city_saint787]

The other part that many fans ignore is the mental makeup. When Reed was traded , some posters said anyone can close. That is not true. As good a set-up man Matt Thornton was he had problems closing. Obviously some of that may be attributed to being a lefty.

 

We don't know yet if Jones has the mental makeup to close.

 

How does one become a closer if not being tested?

[southsider2k5]

Glad to know you aren't calling me a simpleton or anything similar.

 

But it's no excuse to not doing a better job of building a bullpen that could reasonably compete in 2014. As I've said, I think Rick Hahn had a plan to do that, it just was a VERY BAD plan. I also think he underestimated the value of a competent bullpen, or he would have put at least a little more attention to this area.

 

That DOESN'T mean that I thought he should have spent tens of millions to buy expensive bullpen pieces on a team not ready to compete for the World Series -- even if they were ready to compete for a playoff spot this year.

 

As I said above, rebuilding and contending are not mutually exclusive. And you can't convince me that Rick Hahn is allowed by Jerry Reinsdorf and Kenny Williams to make a plan going into a season that says -- "you know, we are going to ask our fans to back us, but we aren't really going to have a plan to compete this season, it's going to have to wait for another year or two." I just don't think the White Sox think that way.

 

NO one plans on their top 2 guys getting hurt, and their next two guys sucking horribly.

[LDF]

 

 

Hahn most definitely should share the major burden of the blame.

 

it was his job to ensure that he has more than a couple of starters ready to step in even if the

injury bug hit. putting all your money on Felipe Paulino and Erik Johnson was gambling. they should

have gotten another sp.

 

for the pen, Hahn should share the blame with Lady Fortuna. that was some bad luck but then again

nothing like Tex Rangers. still rotten luck.

 

 

[2nd_city_saint787]

Hahn most definitely should share the major burden of the blame.

 

it was his job to ensure that he has more than a couple of starters ready to step in even if the

injury bug hit. putting all your money on Felipe Paulino and Erik Johnson was gambling. they should

have gotten another sp.

 

for the pen, Hahn should share the blame with Lady Fortuna. that was some bad luck but then again

nothing like Tex Rangers. still rotten luck.

 

Depth on a rebuilding team is never a priority

[LDF]

Depth on a rebuilding team is never a priority

 

good point let me add, going to 2 known pitchers, a pitcher coming back from a injury, then

putting all you eggs (gamble) on a reclamation pitcher and a rookie. I just don't know. it is too much

of a question mark starting a season like that. regardless if it is a rebuilding yr or not.

Edited August 8, 2014 by LDF

[2nd_city_saint787]

good point let me add, going to 2 known pitchers, a pitcher coming back from a injury, then

putting all you eggs (gamble) on a reclamation pitcher and a rookie. I just don't know. it is too much

of a question mark starting a season like that. regardless if it is a rebuilding yr or not.

 

The fact of the matter is this, and I'm sure I've pretty much said this multiple times, but it can't be stressed enough. Maybe putting it another way might finally get through to some people.

 

Rick Hahn had a bullpen with a guy he thought was gonna be the closer(Jones), a guy who had closer experience(Lindstrom), a guy who Don Cooper mentioned as a closer(Webb), a guy who previously had success in 3 of 4 seasons(Belly), a guy who has been one of the most consistent LH relievers in baseball(Downs), and a guy who showed some promise and is now our best reliever(Petricka).

 

Now, it didn't work, that's baseball, but when you look at that, I just don't see how you can blame Hahn. The thought was there.

 

On a team that just lost 99 games you're probably not gonna have the kinda depth needed to cover for 2 injured pieces and 2 players that blew up in your face. That's just the way it goes.

 

Yes, in hindsight the pen would probably be better of with Reed back there. It also would be better with Jones, Lindstrom, and past versions of Belly and Downs.

 

As far as the rotation goes, again, depth is not a main concern unless you think the team is going to compete. There wasn't a soul here who thought this team would compete, and I'm sure most everyone in that FO thought the same. Sale-Q-Danks-Johnson were all locks to make this team going into the season. Rienzo wasn't dreadful last season and Paulino has a really good arm that Coop was unable to harness. Again, the thought was there to have a non-trash rotation.

 

The intentions were good about as good as you're gonna get for a team that just lost 99 games, the results were not.

 

I tried to be as clear as I can get, because this thread has gone on way too long. If you're not buyin what I'm sellin then I'm done here....

 

...drops mic

 

 

[LittleHurt05]

The fact of the matter is this, and I'm sure I've pretty much said this multiple times, but it can't be stressed enough. Maybe putting it another way might finally get through to some people.

 

Rick Hahn had a bullpen with a guy he thought was gonna be the closer(Jones), a guy who had closer experience(Lindstrom), a guy who Don Cooper mentioned as a closer(Webb), a guy who previously had success in 3 of 4 seasons(Belly), a guy who has been one of the most consistent LH relievers in baseball(Downs), and a guy who showed some promise and is now our best reliever(Petricka).

 

Now, it didn't work, that's baseball, but when you look at that, I just don't see how you can blame Hahn. The thought was there.

 

On a team that just lost 99 games you're probably not gonna have the kinda depth needed to cover for 2 injured pieces and 2 players that blew up in your face. That's just the way it goes.

 

Yes, in hindsight the pen would probably be better of with Reed back there. It also would be better with Jones, Lindstrom, and past versions of Belly and Downs.

 

As far as the rotation goes, again, depth is not a main concern unless you think the team is going to compete. There wasn't a soul here who thought this team would compete, and I'm sure most everyone in that FO thought the same. Sale-Q-Danks-Johnson were all locks to make this team going into the season. Rienzo wasn't dreadful last season and Paulino has a really good arm that Coop was unable to harness. Again, the thought was there to have a non-trash rotation.

 

The intentions were good about as good as you're gonna get for a team that just lost 99 games, the results were not.

 

I tried to be as clear as I can get, because this thread has gone on way too long. If you're not buyin what I'm sellin then I'm done here....

 

...drops mic

 

*slow clap*

 

[southsider2k5]

The fact of the matter is this, and I'm sure I've pretty much said this multiple times, but it can't be stressed enough. Maybe putting it another way might finally get through to some people.

 

Rick Hahn had a bullpen with a guy he thought was gonna be the closer(Jones), a guy who had closer experience(Lindstrom), a guy who Don Cooper mentioned as a closer(Webb), a guy who previously had success in 3 of 4 seasons(Belly), a guy who has been one of the most consistent LH relievers in baseball(Downs), and a guy who showed some promise and is now our best reliever(Petricka).

 

Now, it didn't work, that's baseball, but when you look at that, I just don't see how you can blame Hahn. The thought was there.

 

On a team that just lost 99 games you're probably not gonna have the kinda depth needed to cover for 2 injured pieces and 2 players that blew up in your face. That's just the way it goes.

 

Yes, in hindsight the pen would probably be better of with Reed back there. It also would be better with Jones, Lindstrom, and past versions of Belly and Downs.

 

As far as the rotation goes, again, depth is not a main concern unless you think the team is going to compete. There wasn't a soul here who thought this team would compete, and I'm sure most everyone in that FO thought the same. Sale-Q-Danks-Johnson were all locks to make this team going into the season. Rienzo wasn't dreadful last season and Paulino has a really good arm that Coop was unable to harness. Again, the thought was there to have a non-trash rotation.

 

The intentions were good about as good as you're gonna get for a team that just lost 99 games, the results were not.

 

I tried to be as clear as I can get, because this thread has gone on way too long. If you're not buyin what I'm sellin then I'm done here....

 

...drops mic

 

*salutes that flag*

 

[LDF]

 

never said anything about the pen.

 

with the starting pitchers, I will say we agree to disagree. Hahn needed to get 1 more sp and

not gamble heavily on what he started the season with.

[Vance Law]

never said anything about the pen.

 

with the starting pitchers, I will say we agree to disagree. Hahn needed to get 1 more sp and

not gamble heavily on what he started the season with.

 

He did. Hector Noesi. And it's worked.

[fathom]

Hahn should have had a long reliever on the roster to start the season. Trying to make Webb the long reliever was a mistake, in my opinion.

[LDF]

He did. Hector Noesi. And it's worked.

 

let me ask you this 1 question, it may be rhetorical in nature, but did he start the season

with him on the team.

 

 

[GreenSox]

Both the starting staff and the pen were extremely thin to start the year (especially the pen - the mediocre Lindstrom as one of your top 2 pitchers shows that it's a real weakness).

What killed the pitching is that the 2 young starters (Johnson and Rienzo) went 360 degrees backwards in terms of player development. What the heck happened to those 2?

 

Otherwise, it was still thin; Paulino was a bust, but he recouped with Noesi.

 

And it's still rebuilding period.

But with 2 young pitchers not only taking steps back - but looking like they'll never contribute again - it's a longer rebuilding job than first thought.

[LDF]

Both the starting staff and the pen were extremely thin to start the year (especially the pen - the mediocre Lindstrom as one of your top 2 pitchers shows that it's a real weakness).

What killed the pitching is that the 2 young starters (Johnson and Rienzo) went 360 degrees backwards in terms of player development. What the heck happened to those 2?

 

Otherwise, it was still thin; Paulino was a bust, but he recouped with Noesi.

 

And it's still rebuilding period.

But with 2 young pitchers not only taking steps back - but looking like they'll never contribute again - it's a longer rebuilding job than first thought.

 

I agree wholeheartedly, remember I am a big fan of Hahn. I can admit that there were some mistakes.

he is not batting 100 % in all of his dealing, but the question was is he responsible for the sox bullpen.

the bottom line falls on the person who assemble the bullpen and that was Hahn.

[caulfield12]

The only real pluses have been Putnam and Petricka, and Noesi from a starting standpoint (based on minimal expectations).

 

Can they perform the same way again in 2015? Doubtful. Maybe.

 

Webb has been the most disappointing, and part of it's attributable to lack of command, while others will say he never had a consistent role and that will be answered with, how could they give him a consistent role with all the injuries and his lack of dependability?

 

Veal/Surkamp/Leesman have no place on active major league roster anymore.

 

 

The only thing that would have really helped this team was signing the right 2nd/3rd tier veteran free agent starting pitchers to team friendly deals or trading for those guys.

 

Not signing Ventura/Jimenez/Garza.

 

That list of guys like Phil Hughes (just as easy to make the mistake of signing Nolasco, as the Twins did), Haren, Tim Hudson, Kazmir, Josh Beckett, etc.

 

It could just as easily have been blown up, taking guys like Jason Vargas, Nolasco, Josh Johnson, Edinson Volquez, Feldman, Bronson Arroyo, Kuroda.

 

Of course, that's where you have to rely on your scouting, Kenny Williams, Cooper, Buddy Bell (sigh). Talent procurement/judgement is the name of the game.

Edited August 8, 2014 by caulfield12

[Kyyle23]

let me ask you this 1 question, it may be rhetorical in nature, but did he start the season

with him on the team.

 

lol that isnt rhetorical. He did not start the season with the team, he bounced from the Mariners to Texas to Chicago.

[witesoxfan]

BTW -- why do you re-sign Paul Konerko if you don't think he can help you compete in 2014?

 

Paul Konerko is hitting .292/.319/.472/.791 against left handed pitching. That was why he was brought in. He's doing his job. He also pinch hits and plays occasionally to keep him fresh against right handed pitchers. He's not as good against them anymore and it's brought down his total line.

[Eminor3rd]

Glad to know you aren't calling me a simpleton or anything similar.

 

But it's no excuse to not doing a better job of building a bullpen that could reasonably compete in 2014. As I've said, I think Rick Hahn had a plan to do that, it just was a VERY BAD plan. I also think he underestimated the value of a competent bullpen, or he would have put at least a little more attention to this area.

 

That DOESN'T mean that I thought he should have spent tens of millions to buy expensive bullpen pieces on a team not ready to compete for the World Series -- even if they were ready to compete for a playoff spot this year.

 

As I said above, rebuilding and contending are not mutually exclusive. And you can't convince me that Rick Hahn is allowed by Jerry Reinsdorf and Kenny Williams to make a plan going into a season that says -- "you know, we are going to ask our fans to back us, but we aren't really going to have a plan to compete this season, it's going to have to wait for another year or two." I just don't think the White Sox think that way.

 

The plan is just fine. That the execution fell apart was ALWAYS a possibility and would have been even if the plan were different. Part of the plan is that you accept higher short-term risk in your bullpen in exchange for less long-term risk, because the ultimate goal is to remain flexible with your resources so that you can most adequately and immediately complement your team as you get closer to contention.

 

What happened to the bullpen this year was about the worst realistic outcome in the spectrum. It was more likely that they were adequate as a group, and it was probably just AS likely that they exceeded expectations as it was that they failed so miserably. If a front office fails at this strategy consistently, then you can question their ability to evaluate talent, but this is EXACTLY what the Cubs have been doing to the past few years and the result for them has been a net positive.

 

So if you want to criticize it, then make an argument against the FO's ability to identify good bounceback candidates -- but the plan itself makes plenty of sense.

[Eminor3rd]

The fact of the matter is this, and I'm sure I've pretty much said this multiple times, but it can't be stressed enough. Maybe putting it another way might finally get through to some people.

 

Rick Hahn had a bullpen with a guy he thought was gonna be the closer(Jones), a guy who had closer experience(Lindstrom), a guy who Don Cooper mentioned as a closer(Webb), a guy who previously had success in 3 of 4 seasons(Belly), a guy who has been one of the most consistent LH relievers in baseball(Downs), and a guy who showed some promise and is now our best reliever(Petricka).

 

Now, it didn't work, that's baseball, but when you look at that, I just don't see how you can blame Hahn. The thought was there.

 

On a team that just lost 99 games you're probably not gonna have the kinda depth needed to cover for 2 injured pieces and 2 players that blew up in your face. That's just the way it goes.

 

Yes, in hindsight the pen would probably be better of with Reed back there. It also would be better with Jones, Lindstrom, and past versions of Belly and Downs.

 

As far as the rotation goes, again, depth is not a main concern unless you think the team is going to compete. There wasn't a soul here who thought this team would compete, and I'm sure most everyone in that FO thought the same. Sale-Q-Danks-Johnson were all locks to make this team going into the season. Rienzo wasn't dreadful last season and Paulino has a really good arm that Coop was unable to harness. Again, the thought was there to have a non-trash rotation.

 

The intentions were good about as good as you're gonna get for a team that just lost 99 games, the results were not.

 

I tried to be as clear as I can get, because this thread has gone on way too long. If you're not buyin what I'm sellin then I'm done here....

 

...drops mic

 

Right, this!

 

[caulfield12]

The plan is just fine. That the execution fell apart was ALWAYS a possibility and would have been even if the plan were different. Part of the plan is that you accept higher short-term risk in your bullpen in exchange for less long-term risk, because the ultimate goal is to remain flexible with your resources so that you can most adequately and immediately complement your team as you get closer to contention.

 

What happened to the bullpen this year was about the worst realistic outcome in the spectrum. It was more likely that they were adequate as a group, and it was probably just AS likely that they exceeded expectations as it was that they failed so miserably. If a front office fails at this strategy consistently, then you can question their ability to evaluate talent, but this is EXACTLY what the Cubs have been doing to the past few years and the result for them has been a net positive.

 

So if you want to criticize it, then make an argument against the FO's ability to identify good bounceback candidates -- but the plan itself makes plenty of sense.

 

And we've done great with Quintana and Santos, for example...except for the returns on Santos, and the fact that we held onto Humber beyond his expiration date. Same thing with making Noesi into at least a serviceable/competitive 5th starter.

 

The problem has been a lot of unexpected injuries to Floyd, Crain, Jones and finally Lindstrom.

 

It's true, the Cubs did a good job with Feldman, Garza and then same thing this with Samardzija and Hammel. Arrieta's turned out to be quite the find, and that's to their credit.

 

We were hoping at one point to possibly trade Nate Jones, Lindstrom, Belisario, Boggs, maybe Downs and Paulino, and none of those things worked out.

 

Going back to the beginning of the KW regime, we've always excelled in finding hitters from other organizations, or buying players that were superfluous/injured/undervalued.

 

 

FWIW, if CJ Edwards is in the starting rotation and Russell's the starting 2B or SS for the Cubs in 2017, then they've done a really good job IMO.

 

[Balta1701]

And we've done great with Quintana and Santos, for example...except for the returns on Santos, and the fact that we held onto Humber beyond his expiration date. Same thing with making Noesi into at least a serviceable/competitive 5th starter.

 

The problem has been a lot of unexpected injuries to Floyd, Crain, Jones and finally Lindstrom.

 

It's true, the Cubs did a good job with Feldman, Garza and then same thing this with Samardzija and Hammel. Arrieta's turned out to be quite the find, and that's to their credit.

 

We were hoping at one point to possibly trade Nate Jones, Lindstrom, Belisario, Boggs, maybe Downs and Paulino, and none of those things worked out.

 

Going back to the beginning of the KW regime, we've always excelled in finding hitters from other organizations, or buying players that were superfluous/injured/undervalued.

 

 

FWIW, if CJ Edwards is in the starting rotation and Russell's the starting 2B or SS for the Cubs in 2017, then they've done a really good job IMO.

I think you seriously need to stop talking about the Cubs. Its becoming like you and Puig.

[elrockinMT]

I think you seriously need to stop talking about the Cubs. Its becoming like you and Puig.

 

Yes please! I don't think the Cubs have recently won a World Series

[LDF]

lol that isnt rhetorical. He did not start the season with the team, he bounced from the Mariners to Texas to Chicago.

 

 

I know, I was trying to give a way out.

[caulfield12]

I think you seriously need to stop talking about the Cubs. Its becoming like you and Puig.

 

Talking about the White Sox for the last week and most of 2013 was pretty boring...except for the trade deadline and following Avisail's progress.

 

I think I've contracted a case of Fathom-itis, perhaps.

 

And I did have the Astros/Aiken for awhile, haha.

 

Plus I can multitask for 3 weeks in the US and buy lots of baby stuff from amazon.com.

Edited August 8, 2014 by caulfield12

[LDF]

The plan is just fine. That the execution fell apart was ALWAYS a possibility and would have been even if the plan were different. Part of the plan is that you accept higher short-term risk in your bullpen in exchange for less long-term risk, because the ultimate goal is to remain flexible with your resources so that you can most adequately and immediately complement your team as you get closer to contention.

 

What happened to the bullpen this year was about the worst realistic outcome in the spectrum. It was more likely that they were adequate as a group, and it was probably just AS likely that they exceeded expectations as it was that they failed so miserably. If a front office fails at this strategy consistently, then you can question their ability to evaluate talent, but this is EXACTLY what the Cubs have been doing to the past few years and the result for them has been a net positive.

 

So if you want to criticize it, then make an argument against the FO's ability to identify good bounceback candidates --

but the plan itself makes plenty of sense.

 

I am going to try to play devils. advocate, maybe what may have thrown a monkey wrench in the hole

plan was several factors. Jose A being as good as he is, very good performance by a hand full of starters

including Adam E, and pride in themselves.

 

this team is doing well above what many thought they would do, including me. that is way I am excited for

2015 team and what other pieces Hahn would bring in.