Chisoxfn Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 Anything we give up for a rental when our backs are against the wall, is extremely risky. Belton Bill Melton was on yesterday and he had some interesting points (later on he kind of went back on them though, but I'll ignore that for the purpose of this post). Bottom line, he said that he hopes Kenny and Rick execute on whatever they planned to do prior to the streak happening. If they thought they had the goods to win, then do it, if not, then do that, but you shouldn't necessarily let 1.5 weeks of play impact your decisions for the rest of the season. I am actually giving Bill Melton more credit cause he didn't quite say it like that, but it was his point. It is also why I believe it is imperative for the club, if it is going to buy, to buy someone who will be here for the long haul (unless the rental is so cheap it is absurd not to do it, such as Beck for Cespedes or something like that). We should be taking a quasi Ranger mentality (or almost like a 2004 mentality when we acquired Contreras) and while the move might help us contend this year, the goal is for this to make us a better team in 2016 & 2017. With that in mind, when it comes to Shark, Hahn and Kenny have a ton of leverage right now. Dodgers still need that upgrade (and the list of pitchers like Shark is small and some rivals, including the Giants have upgraded). Angels have to also be interested in another pitcher (especially given the moves the Astros just made) and I presume the Yanks would be listening as well. I'm not saying I'm ready to sell as I want to buy and have said I want to buy (but potentially do a controlled sell as well). Given where the market is, if the Sox get the right offer, I don't blame them for selling Shark while still buying a bat elsewhere. I also am okay with them buying a bat and going for this thing, but please, please, do not buy a rental or make a bunch of moves ignoring our future. And also, please do not stand pat. This team, without another bat, has very low odds at fending things off, and at that point, given the leverage I presume we have with Shark, we'd be better off moving Shark, getting some talent who could help us in 2016 & 2017, while giving Erik Johnson and maybe even Montas some time in the bigs to see what we have in them. We can always then make another push to sign Shark in the off-season (if that is the move we want to make). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shipps Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 Trade Samardzija. You will be glad you did it later or regret not doing it if you hold onto him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
royoung Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Jul 31, 2015 -> 10:57 AM) Anything we give up for a rental when our backs against the ball, is extremely risky. Belton Bill Melton was on yesterday and he had some interesting points (later on he kind of went back on them though, but I'll ignore that for the purpose of this post). Bottom line, he said that he hopes Kenny and Rick execute on whatever they planned to do prior to the streak happening. If they thought they had the goods to win, then do it, if not, then do that, but you shouldn't necessarily let 1.5 weeks of play impact your decisions for the rest of the season. I am actually giving Bill Melton more credit cause he didn't quite say it like that, but it was his point. It is also why I believe it is imperative for the club, if it is going to buy, to buy someone who will be here for the long haul (unless the rental is so cheap it is absurd not to do it, such as Beck for Cespedes or something like that). We should be taking a quasi Ranger mentality (or almost like a 2004 mentality when we acquired Contreras) and while the move might help us contend this year, the goal is for this to make us a better team in 2016 & 2017. With that in mind, when it comes to Shark, Hahn and Kenny have a ton of leverage right now. Dodgers still need that upgrade (and the list of pitchers like Shark is small and some rivals, including the Giants have upgraded). Angels have to also be interested in another pitcher (especially given the moves the Astros just made) and I presume the Yanks would be listening as well. I'm not saying I'm ready to sell as I want to buy and have said I want to buy (but potentially do a controlled sell as well). Given where the market is, if the Sox get the right offer, I don't blame them for selling Shark while still buying a bat elsewhere. I also am okay with them buying a bat and going for this thing, but please, please, do not buy a rental or make a bunch of moves ignoring our future. This. +1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boopa1219 Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Jul 31, 2015 -> 10:57 AM) Anything we give up for a rental when our backs are against the wall, is extremely risky. Belton Bill Melton was on yesterday and he had some interesting points (later on he kind of went back on them though, but I'll ignore that for the purpose of this post). Bottom line, he said that he hopes Kenny and Rick execute on whatever they planned to do prior to the streak happening. If they thought they had the goods to win, then do it, if not, then do that, but you shouldn't necessarily let 1.5 weeks of play impact your decisions for the rest of the season. I am actually giving Bill Melton more credit cause he didn't quite say it like that, but it was his point. It is also why I believe it is imperative for the club, if it is going to buy, to buy someone who will be here for the long haul (unless the rental is so cheap it is absurd not to do it, such as Beck for Cespedes or something like that). We should be taking a quasi Ranger mentality (or almost like a 2004 mentality when we acquired Contreras) and while the move might help us contend this year, the goal is for this to make us a better team in 2016 & 2017. With that in mind, when it comes to Shark, Hahn and Kenny have a ton of leverage right now. Dodgers still need that upgrade (and the list of pitchers like Shark is small and some rivals, including the Giants have upgraded). Angels have to also be interested in another pitcher (especially given the moves the Astros just made) and I presume the Yanks would be listening as well. I'm not saying I'm ready to sell as I want to buy and have said I want to buy (but potentially do a controlled sell as well). Given where the market is, if the Sox get the right offer, I don't blame them for selling Shark while still buying a bat elsewhere. I also am okay with them buying a bat and going for this thing, but please, please, do not buy a rental or make a bunch of moves ignoring our future. Totally agree Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jenksycat Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 I take ol' Melton with a grain of salt after he laughed at the Kazmir trade saying we should get wayyyy more for Shark because he's so much better than that crummy Kazmir....who's having a better year than Shark and is a lefty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxfest Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Jul 31, 2015 -> 10:57 AM) Anything we give up for a rental when our backs are against the wall, is extremely risky. Belton Bill Melton was on yesterday and he had some interesting points (later on he kind of went back on them though, but I'll ignore that for the purpose of this post). Bottom line, he said that he hopes Kenny and Rick execute on whatever they planned to do prior to the streak happening. If they thought they had the goods to win, then do it, if not, then do that, but you shouldn't necessarily let 1.5 weeks of play impact your decisions for the rest of the season. I am actually giving Bill Melton more credit cause he didn't quite say it like that, but it was his point. It is also why I believe it is imperative for the club, if it is going to buy, to buy someone who will be here for the long haul (unless the rental is so cheap it is absurd not to do it, such as Beck for Cespedes or something like that). We should be taking a quasi Ranger mentality (or almost like a 2004 mentality when we acquired Contreras) and while the move might help us contend this year, the goal is for this to make us a better team in 2016 & 2017. With that in mind, when it comes to Shark, Hahn and Kenny have a ton of leverage right now. Dodgers still need that upgrade (and the list of pitchers like Shark is small and some rivals, including the Giants have upgraded). Angels have to also be interested in another pitcher (especially given the moves the Astros just made) and I presume the Yanks would be listening as well. I'm not saying I'm ready to sell as I want to buy and have said I want to buy (but potentially do a controlled sell as well). Given where the market is, if the Sox get the right offer, I don't blame them for selling Shark while still buying a bat elsewhere. I also am okay with them buying a bat and going for this thing, but please, please, do not buy a rental or make a bunch of moves ignoring our future. And also, please do not stand pat. This team, without another bat, has very low odds at fending things off, and at that point, given the leverage I presume we have with Shark, we'd be better off moving Shark, getting some talent who could help us in 2016 & 2017, while giving Erik Johnson and maybe even Montas some time in the bigs to see what we have in them. We can always then make another push to sign Shark in the off-season (if that is the move we want to make). Got a bad feeling keeping Shark and they get nobody and fade away for good by mid August. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 I think holding on to Shark is a move in and of itself and probably the only prudent one Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maggsmaggs Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 QUOTE (shipps @ Jul 31, 2015 -> 10:59 AM) Trade Samardzija. You will be glad you did it later or regret not doing it if you hold onto him. Unfortunately by waiting, we may have missed our chance to add meaningful prospects. Most teams that needed a rotation arm have already obtained one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted July 31, 2015 Author Share Posted July 31, 2015 QUOTE (maggsmaggs @ Jul 31, 2015 -> 09:04 AM) Unfortunately by waiting, we may have missed our chance to add meaningful prospects. Most teams that needed a rotation arm have already obtained one. I completely disagree with this right now. Shark is now the best pitcher on the market and the Angels, Yankees, and Dodgers are all sitting their needing pitching. I realize the Dodgers got Latos but what they want is a guy that can help the front of the rotation and the Giants just got Leake. Giants would probably still be interested as well and apparently Houston is still looking to buy too. Cubs have to be desperate for pitching as well (if they are going to give this thing a shot). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackSox13 Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 QUOTE (southside hitman @ Jul 31, 2015 -> 10:59 AM) This. +1 +2 Well done Chisoxfn! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Jul 31, 2015 -> 08:57 AM) Anything we give up for a rental when our backs are against the wall, is extremely risky. Belton Bill Melton was on yesterday and he had some interesting points (later on he kind of went back on them though, but I'll ignore that for the purpose of this post). Bottom line, he said that he hopes Kenny and Rick execute on whatever they planned to do prior to the streak happening. If they thought they had the goods to win, then do it, if not, then do that, but you shouldn't necessarily let 1.5 weeks of play impact your decisions for the rest of the season. I am actually giving Bill Melton more credit cause he didn't quite say it like that, but it was his point. It is also why I believe it is imperative for the club, if it is going to buy, to buy someone who will be here for the long haul (unless the rental is so cheap it is absurd not to do it, such as Beck for Cespedes or something like that). We should be taking a quasi Ranger mentality (or almost like a 2004 mentality when we acquired Contreras) and while the move might help us contend this year, the goal is for this to make us a better team in 2016 & 2017. With that in mind, when it comes to Shark, Hahn and Kenny have a ton of leverage right now. Dodgers still need that upgrade (and the list of pitchers like Shark is small and some rivals, including the Giants have upgraded). Angels have to also be interested in another pitcher (especially given the moves the Astros just made) and I presume the Yanks would be listening as well. I'm not saying I'm ready to sell as I want to buy and have said I want to buy (but potentially do a controlled sell as well). Given where the market is, if the Sox get the right offer, I don't blame them for selling Shark while still buying a bat elsewhere. I also am okay with them buying a bat and going for this thing, but please, please, do not buy a rental or make a bunch of moves ignoring our future. I disagree. A baseball season is full of streaks, and streaks can define the outcome of a season. If we're going to dismiss the 7 game streak, can we dismiss the 8 game losing streak as well? This team in particular, has been streaky. Additionally, this team has some young players on it in key roles that appear to be growing up before our eyes. Honestly, it depends more on what do you think the current state and potential of the team is for this season? Is it the team with Carlos Sanchez hitting and Alexei playing an outstanding ss? Is it the team with Saladino playing a solid 3rd base and executing at the plate? This team is not the team today that it was in the first part of the season. I firmly believe that. So let's carry out a plan with that in mind, not based on how things looked 10 days ago when all appeared to be lost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 I do also think shark is in high demand, man I wish we could have swapped him for some of the pieces in tulo trade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 I do believe the White Sox have been careful. Seeing at who has been discussed, there have been plenty of chances for the Sox to jump in and throw caution to the wind. But they haven't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitesoxfan99 Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Jul 31, 2015 -> 11:07 AM) I completely disagree with this right now. Shark is now the best pitcher on the market and the Angels, Yankees, and Dodgers are all sitting their needing pitching. I realize the Dodgers got Latos but what they want is a guy that can help the front of the rotation and the Giants just got Leake. Giants would probably still be interested as well and apparently Houston is still looking to buy too. Cubs have to be desperate for pitching as well (if they are going to give this thing a shot). The Dodgers also got Alex Wood in that deal. They really aren't hurting for pitching now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WilliamTell Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 This is exactly how I feel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted July 31, 2015 Author Share Posted July 31, 2015 QUOTE (iamshack @ Jul 31, 2015 -> 09:08 AM) I disagree. A baseball season is full of streaks, and streaks can define the outcome of a season. If we're going to dismiss the 7 game streak, can we dismiss the 8 game losing streak as well? This team in particular, has been streaky. Additionally, this team has some young players on it in key roles that appear to be growing up before our eyes. Honestly, it depends more on what do you think the current state and potential of the team is for this season? Is it the team with Carlos Sanchez hitting and Alexei playing an outstanding ss? Is it the team with Saladino playing a solid 3rd base and executing at the plate? This team is not the team today that it was in the first part of the season. I firmly believe that. So let's carry out a plan with that in mind, not based on how things looked 10 days ago when all appeared to be lost. I agree with the 2nd part and I think that is why it goes back to what Kenny & Rick thought about the team (including Saladino and Sanchez) prior to the winning streak. If they thought those guys were going to be the change / spark, then great, go ahead and buy, but you also can't ignore our current position (3.5 back with multiple teams in the way, including 1 team, the Tigers, who is right their with us and selling like crazy). I will reiterate that I am okay with buying, but I am not going with buying rentals given our position. If we were the leaders or had > odds, I'd be okay with buying rentals, but in our current situation, I absolutely don't think it makes sense. If the club wants to trade for CarGo or Bruce, fine by me. If they want to give up a top 100 prospect (plus others) for Upton or Cespedes....no thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiSox59 Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 QUOTE (Jake @ Jul 31, 2015 -> 11:04 AM) I think holding on to Shark is a move in and of itself and probably the only prudent one Yep, and probably what they'll do unless someone bowls them over. Maybe a bench piece bat or someone that can play a little 3B, but I don't expect anything but, but I also wouldn't be surprised..we'll know in a few hours. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maggsmaggs Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Jul 31, 2015 -> 11:07 AM) I completely disagree with this right now. Shark is now the best pitcher on the market and the Angels, Yankees, and Dodgers are all sitting their needing pitching. I realize the Dodgers got Latos but what they want is a guy that can help the front of the rotation and the Giants just got Leake. Giants would probably still be interested as well and apparently Houston is still looking to buy too. Cubs have to be desperate for pitching as well (if they are going to give this thing a shot). Well the two teams most interested in Shark were Toronto and SF, and both have gotten rotation help. I don't think after giving up Mella for Leake, the Giants will depart with more porpsects for a pitcher. Maybe I'm wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted July 31, 2015 Author Share Posted July 31, 2015 QUOTE (whitesoxfan99 @ Jul 31, 2015 -> 09:09 AM) The Dodgers also got Alex Wood in that deal. They really aren't hurting for pitching now. Are they hurting for pitching, no, but what they want is another front line guy go to with Clayton / Greinke, yes. At least that is what everyone out in Dodger nation keeps saying. Clearly they have been patient and are unwilling to give up Seager / Urias for what has been moved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackSox13 Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Jul 31, 2015 -> 11:13 AM) Are they hurting for pitching, no, but what they want is another front line guy go to with Clayton / Greinke, yes. At least that is what everyone out in Dodger nation keeps saying. Clearly they have been patient and are unwilling to give up Seager / Urias for what has been moved. Let's offer Samardzija + for Alex Wood. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted July 31, 2015 Author Share Posted July 31, 2015 QUOTE (BlackSox13 @ Jul 31, 2015 -> 09:14 AM) Let's offer Samardzija + for Alex Wood. I think the Dodgers would consider that. I'd have rather gotten in on Olivia, haha. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knightni Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Jul 31, 2015 -> 12:15 PM) I think the Dodgers would consider that. I'd have rather gotten in on Olivia, haha. You should have made this thread a SoxNet article. lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Jul 31, 2015 -> 09:11 AM) I agree with the 2nd part and I think that is why it goes back to what Kenny & Rick thought about the team (including Saladino and Sanchez) prior to the winning streak. If they thought those guys were going to be the change / spark, then great, go ahead and buy, but you also can't ignore our current position (3.5 back with multiple teams in the way, including 1 team, the Tigers, who is right their with us and selling like crazy). I will reiterate that I am okay with buying, but I am not going with buying rentals given our position. If we were the leaders or had > odds, I'd be okay with buying rentals, but in our current situation, I absolutely don't think it makes sense. If the club wants to trade for CarGo or Bruce, fine by me. If they want to give up a top 100 prospect (plus others) for Upton or Cespedes....no thank you. What does this mean? Immediately prior to the streak? My concern Jason is that the first half of the season we had a large number of players performing well below what could be expected, based on career norms. I think over the past week, we've seen some regression to the mean. How can you forecast the remainder of the season based on data that is most likely not reliable either? My thought is you have to forecast this offense to be better than it has been. Now if you can add to that, well, I think you've got a pretty good chance at this based on the pitching staff you have assembled, that honestly, has NOT pitched over their heads at all this year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitesoxfan99 Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Jul 31, 2015 -> 11:13 AM) Are they hurting for pitching, no, but what they want is another front line guy go to with Clayton / Greinke, yes. At least that is what everyone out in Dodger nation keeps saying. Clearly they have been patient and are unwilling to give up Seager / Urias for what has been moved. Wood has been as good as Samardzija since getting to the majors (if not better) and Latos really isn't all that far behind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeSox Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 QUOTE (iamshack @ Jul 31, 2015 -> 11:17 AM) What does this mean? Immediately prior to the streak? My concern Jason is that the first half of the season we had a large number of players performing well below what could be expected, based on career norms. I think over the past week, we've seen some regression to the mean. How can you forecast the remainder of the season based on data that is most likely not reliable either? My thought is you have to forecast this offense to be better than it has been. Now if you can add to that, well, I think you've got a pretty good chance at this based on the pitching staff you have assembled, that honestly, has NOT pitched over their heads at all this year. What if this streak had come in June and they were still at the same overall record right now? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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