TaylorStSox Posted June 14, 2016 Share Posted June 14, 2016 QUOTE (ptatc @ Jun 14, 2016 -> 11:02 AM) This is the issue with looking at stats in general. You can manipulate them any way you like to make a point. What one person thinks is important, another does not. This is the issue with WAR and many of those other overall numbers. The people who created them created it with what they though was important. So they are biased toward that line of thinking. You don't need to manipulate stats to fit your narrative if said narrative is that Avi Garcia is a real s***ty hitter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaliSoxFanViaSWside Posted June 14, 2016 Share Posted June 14, 2016 QUOTE (ptatc @ Jun 14, 2016 -> 09:02 AM) This is the issue with looking at stats in general. You can manipulate them any way you like to make a point. What one person thinks is important, another does not. This is the issue with WAR and many of those other overall numbers. The people who created them created it with what they though was important. So they are biased toward that line of thinking. True enough but being good with RISP would seem to be pretty important for a team that can't hit very well in general so when guys do get on base driving them in becomes even more important. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feeky Magee Posted June 14, 2016 Share Posted June 14, 2016 QUOTE (CaliSoxFanViaSWside @ Jun 14, 2016 -> 11:43 AM) True enough but being good with RISP would seem to be pretty important for a team that can't hit very well in general so when guys do get on base driving them in becomes even more important. Being good with RISP isn't even remotely close to being a repeatable skill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheTruth05 Posted June 14, 2016 Share Posted June 14, 2016 QUOTE (Feeky Magee @ Jun 14, 2016 -> 11:53 AM) Being good with RISP isn't even remotely close to being a repeatable skill. It sure is when you have TWTW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Posted June 14, 2016 Share Posted June 14, 2016 QUOTE (ptatc @ Jun 14, 2016 -> 12:02 PM) This is the issue with looking at stats in general. You can manipulate them any way you like to make a point. What one person thinks is important, another does not. This is the issue with WAR and many of those other overall numbers. The people who created them created it with what they though was important. So they are biased toward that line of thinking. FWIW, stats like WAR were created in part with careful attention to how the stats correlated with other outcomes, like winning. Other methods of slicing and dicing (look at RISP! high leverage! etc.) are going to be less justifiable Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaliSoxFanViaSWside Posted June 14, 2016 Share Posted June 14, 2016 QUOTE (Feeky Magee @ Jun 14, 2016 -> 09:53 AM) Being good with RISP isn't even remotely close to being a repeatable skill. Maybe it is , maybe it isn't. Some guys do better with guys on base. Concentration levels increase or whatever. Besides I am not arguing weather it's repeatable or not just that it's important. Of course stat geeks will argue that driving in runs is based solely on situation blah blah blah. But regardless it's still important to drive in runs . Can't win without scoring . The point is Avi has been valuable this year in that respect. He is making the most of the situations to score runs , better than anyone on the team. Talking about weather it's repeatable just clouds that fact. People talked about how Cespedes was inconsistent but his hitting with RISP was always good. There's something to be said for rising to the occasion. Weather or not you believe in clutch is up to you. It was easy to pick Cespedes as the best of the Big 3 FA OF's in the off season . You might think it was luck but not in my eyes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted June 14, 2016 Share Posted June 14, 2016 (edited) QUOTE (CaliSoxFanViaSWside @ Jun 14, 2016 -> 02:52 PM) Maybe it is , maybe it isn't. Some guys do better with guys on base. Concentration levels increase or whatever. Besides I am not arguing weather it's repeatable or not just that it's important. Of course stat geeks will argue that driving in runs is based solely on situation blah blah blah. But regardless it's still important to drive in runs . Can't win without scoring . The point is Avi has been valuable this year in that respect. He is making the most of the situations to score runs , better than anyone on the team. Talking about weather it's repeatable just clouds that fact. People talked about how Cespedes was inconsistent but his hitting with RISP was always good. There's something to be said for rising to the occasion. Weather or not you believe in clutch is up to you. It was easy to pick Cespedes as the best of the Big 3 FA OF's in the off season . You might think it was luck but not in my eyes. I agree, some do bear down more in those types of situations, but since it is almost impossible to measure beyond a shadow of a doubt due to sample sizes, good ABs leading to bad outcomes, and vice versa, IMO, mathematicians say it doesn't exist. Avi does seem to have better ABs in those situations. His career numbers show he has done better in those situations. I agree with you and don't know why it couldn't be something. That said, I'm all for and upgrade from Avi, but when he came up in the 9th, I thought he would have a decent AB. Edited June 14, 2016 by Dick Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted June 14, 2016 Share Posted June 14, 2016 Or some would argue he had something to prove against his former team/mates...added incentive. We've seen it time and time again from former White Sox players when facing us, whether it's Eduardo Escobar or whoever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chitownsportsfan Posted June 15, 2016 Share Posted June 15, 2016 QUOTE (CaliSoxFanViaSWside @ Jun 14, 2016 -> 03:52 PM) Maybe it is , maybe it isn't. Some guys do better with guys on base. Concentration levels increase or whatever. Besides I am not arguing weather it's repeatable or not just that it's important. Of course stat geeks will argue that driving in runs is based solely on situation blah blah blah. But regardless it's still important to drive in runs . Can't win without scoring . The point is Avi has been valuable this year in that respect. He is making the most of the situations to score runs , better than anyone on the team. Talking about weather it's repeatable just clouds that fact. People talked about how Cespedes was inconsistent but his hitting with RISP was always good. There's something to be said for rising to the occasion. Weather or not you believe in clutch is up to you. It was easy to pick Cespedes as the best of the Big 3 FA OF's in the off season . You might think it was luck but not in my eyes. it's been proven, with stats, that it's not repeatable. Your attitude is like sticking your fingers in your ear and saying "2+2 isn't 4 it's 5". There is not a single data point that says "clutch" exists. Notice that I'm not claiming that "choking" doesn't exist. Just that no player has ever, ever been proven to be able to raise his game in any sort of statistically significant (I'm using this term in a very precise way in a statistical test application) way. Not a single one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchetman Posted June 15, 2016 Share Posted June 15, 2016 Absolutely brutal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Special K Posted June 15, 2016 Share Posted June 15, 2016 (edited) Whatever miniscule offense he may or may not offer is clearly offset by his utterly abysmal defense in right field which just cost us a very big inning tonight by missing that easy pop fly. Luckily our brilliant manager decided to DH Schuck tonight instead of playing him in right. It's not open to debate, Garcia would not start on any other team, and Robin is BAD. Edited June 15, 2016 by Special K Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaliSoxFanViaSWside Posted June 15, 2016 Share Posted June 15, 2016 QUOTE (chitownsportsfan @ Jun 14, 2016 -> 05:23 PM) it's been proven, with stats, that it's not repeatable. Your attitude is like sticking your fingers in your ear and saying "2+2 isn't 4 it's 5". There is not a single data point that says "clutch" exists. Notice that I'm not claiming that "choking" doesn't exist. Just that no player has ever, ever been proven to be able to raise his game in any sort of statistically significant (I'm using this term in a very precise way in a statistical test application) way. Not a single one. For those of you who put your faith in mathematics it's all well and good. Some things cannot be measured. So you're arguing that it's possible to lower your game because of pressure but not rise to the occasion. Interesting since neither can be proven mathematically yet you believe in the negative aspect but not the positive one. Why talk about math at all if you think choking is possible then surely so does rising to the occasion. If people can crack under pressure so can they rise above it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SI1020 Posted June 15, 2016 Share Posted June 15, 2016 QUOTE (chitownsportsfan @ Jun 15, 2016 -> 12:23 AM) it's been proven, with stats, that it's not repeatable. Your attitude is like sticking your fingers in your ear and saying "2+2 isn't 4 it's 5". There is not a single data point that says "clutch" exists. Notice that I'm not claiming that "choking" doesn't exist. Just that no player has ever, ever been proven to be able to raise his game in any sort of statistically significant (I'm using this term in a very precise way in a statistical test application) way. Not a single one. http://www.foxsports.com/mlb/just-a-bit-ou...fference-081414 Even God admits it might be possible. http://www.si.com/mlb/2010/01/01/james-clutch No .270 hitter is going to bat .450 in the "clutch" but you can definitely find players who hit statistically better in high leverage situations than they did the rest of the time. Is "clutch" overrated in baseball? Definitely but there are always hitters and pitchers you'd want when the game is on the line. I am an apostate, not a strict believer in the religion of saber. In fact most of the time saber geeks give me a headache. I do love stats though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted June 15, 2016 Share Posted June 15, 2016 QUOTE (CB2.0 @ Jun 14, 2016 -> 08:23 AM) Wuh? Everybody but Eaton hit K-Rod and/or got on base that inning. Avi struck out in the 11th to Sanchez in 4 pitches. "The Patience" He sucks. Hey, whats up Brando Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jose Abreu Posted June 18, 2016 Author Share Posted June 18, 2016 bump Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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